Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:50 pm

Synchronicity is the occurrence of a meaningful coincidence in time can take three forms:

a) the coincidence of a certain psychic content with a corresponding objective process which is perceived to take place simultaneously.

b) the coincidence of a subjective psychic state with a phantasm (dream or vision) which later turns out to be a more or less faithful reflection of a "synchronistic," objective event that took place more or less simultaneously, but at a distance.

c) the same, except that the event perceived takes place in the future and is represented in the present only by a phantasm that corresponds to it.

— Carl Jung, "Résumé", Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle (1960)


Why is synchronicity possible? To what human/cosmic situation does it point?

It seems to me highly improbable that everything we identify within ourselves as specifically human—the human imagination, human spirituality, the full range of human emotions, moral aspiration, aesthetic intelligence, the discernment and creation of narrative significance and meaningful coherence, the quest for beauty, truth, and the good—suddenly appeared ex nihilo in the human being as an accidental and more or less absurd ontological singularity in the cosmos. Is not this assumption, which in one form or another still implicitly pervades most modern and postmodern thought, nothing other than the unexamined residue of the Cartesian monotheistic ego?

Is it not much more plausible that human nature, in all its creative multidimensional depths and heights, emerges from the very essence of the cosmos, and that the human spirit is the spirit of the cosmos itself as inflected through us and enacted by us? human intelligence in all its creative brilliance is ultimately the cosmos’s intelligence expressing its creative brilliance? And that the human imagination is ultimately grounded in the cosmic imagination? And, finally, that this larger spirit, intelligence, and imagination all live within and act through the self-reflective human being who serves as a unique vessel and embodiment of the cosmos—creative, unpredictable, fallible, self-transcending, unfolding the whole, integral to the whole, perhaps even essential to the whole?

Tarnas, Richard. Cosmos and Psyche (pp. 491-493). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:43 am

felix dakat wrote:Aware-ness

Why are you still asking about the jaundiced eye metaphor after I revised my interpretation to suppose that the saying means any eye that is not enlightened by gnosis cannot see the kingdom of the father spread on the earth?

It's just that the jaundiced eye really caught my eye. So when the GoT has Jesus saying, "the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it," He, Jesus, was attributing that blindness to jaundiced eyes? Moreover, "spread out upon the earth" means no chaos "on the earth" to the eye enlightened by gnosis... or seeing synchronicity, both in the night sky, and on this earthly plain too ... lo and behold, "the father's kingdom," in its entirety. You almost didn't see it. You were blind but now you see.

And your revision is interesting and deep. There's a lot to unpack in it. Namely gnosis, or lack of it ; so, first comes gnosis, then comes eyes that can see synchronicity in the night sky? That brings in Gnosticism, in all it's multifarious permutations.

But thanks for further explanation of your jaundiced eye metaphor.

An example of deep Gnosticism :

According to Layton, the classical Gnostic myth has the following structure: “Act I. The expansion of a solitary first principle (god) into a full nonphysical (spiritual) universe. Act II. Creation of the material universe, including stars, planets, earth, and hell. Act III. Creation of Adam, Eve, and their children. Act IV. Subsequent history of the human race” (The Gnostic Scriptures, p. 13). Thus in its broadest outlines, Jung’s Sermones is presented in the form analogous to a Gnostic myth. Jung discusses Basilides in Aion (1951). He credits the Gnostics for having found suitable symbolic expressions of the self, and notes that Basilides and Valentinus “allowed themselves to be influenced in a large measure by natural inner experience. They therefore provide, like the alchemists, a veritable mine of information concerning all those symbols arising out of the repercussions of the Christian message. At the same time, their ideas compensate the aysmmetry of God postulated by the doctrine of the privato boni, exactly like those well-known modern tendencies of the unconscious to produce symbols of totality for bridging the gap between consciousness and the unconscious”
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 554). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:05 pm

Jung found confirmation for his psychic investigations in world mythology, Taoism, gnosticism, alchemy, and quantum physics. In these diverse sources and more, he found wholeness, the unitary world that is also represented by the archetypal images of the Self.

The traditional Chinese worldview that the activity of nature is a whole governed by a single principle the Tao provides a clear context for envisioning synchronicity. The sinologist Richard Wilhelm , who was the close friend and collaborator of Jung's wrote that "all Chinese philosophy...

...is built on the premise that the cosmos and man, in the last analysis, obey the same law; that man is a microcosm and is not separated from the macrocosm by any fixed barriers. The very same laws rule for the one as for the other, and from the one a way leads into the other. The psyche and the cosmos are to each other like the inner world and the outer world. Therefore man participates by nature in all cosmic events, and is inwardly as well as outwardly interwoven with them. "
The Secret of the Golden flower: a Chinese book of Life
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:00 pm

felix dakat wrote:Jung found confirmation for his psychic investigations in world mythology, Taoism, gnosticism, alchemy, and quantum physics. In these diverse sources and more, he found wholeness, the unitary world that is also represented by the archetypal images of the Self.

The traditional Chinese worldview that the activity of nature is a whole governed by a single principle the Tao provides a clear context for envisioning synchronicity. The sinologist Richard Wilhelm , who was the close friend and collaborator of Jung's wrote that "all Chinese philosophy...

...is built on the premise that the cosmos and man, in the last analysis, obey the same law; that man is a microcosm and is not separated from the macrocosm by any fixed barriers. The very same laws rule for the one as for the other, and from the one a way leads into the other. The psyche and the cosmos are to each other like the inner world and the outer world. Therefore man participates by nature in all cosmic events, and is inwardly as well as outwardly interwoven with them. "
The Secret of the Golden flower: a Chinese book of Life

"The swirl of a galaxy and the swirl of a gown resemble one another not
merely by accident, but because they follow the grain of the universe.''
"Hunting for Hope'' Scott Russell Sanders
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Fri May 01, 2020 6:33 am

What's the difference between synchronicity and coincidence?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 01, 2020 6:19 pm

Aware-ness wrote:What's the difference between synchronicity and coincidence?


Synchronicity assumes that meaningful connections occur because we live in a unitary cosmos where everything is meaningfully connected. Coincidence assumes that meaningful connections occur randomly by accident in a meaningless universe where meanings are projected by human observers.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sat May 02, 2020 4:53 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:What's the difference between synchronicity and coincidence?


Synchronicity assumes that meaningful connections occur because we live in a unitary cosmos where everything is meaningfully connected. Coincidence assumes that meaningful connections occur randomly by accident in a meaningless universe where meanings are projected by human observers.

Are there agents behind synchronicity and coincidence that determine their meanings, or is it our projections of meanings, or lack thereof, on them both alike?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 02, 2020 5:05 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:What's the difference between synchronicity and coincidence?


Synchronicity assumes that meaningful connections occur because we live in a unitary cosmos where everything is meaningfully connected. Coincidence assumes that meaningful connections occur randomly by accident in a meaningless universe where meanings are projected by human observers.
Which leads to Awarenesses question above, and at times above it seemed like you were arguing there was some kind of objective connection between all consciousness and things (perhaps a collective unconscious).

And then as a side issue: even if there is no connection (or meaning) it might be a very good heuristic.

Me, I think disconnections is the presumption that needs justification. I don't think everything is one is the only truth. I think things are both separate and connected.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat May 02, 2020 5:20 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Are there agents behind synchronicity and coincidence that determine their meanings, or is it our projections of meanings, or lack thereof, on them both alike?


That's a critical question. According to the dominant modern world view they are psychological projections. Jung equivocated on the issue for years as he sought acceptance for his theories among the psychological community. However, In his later work particularly in relation to his study of synchronicity, Jung began to move toward a conception of archetypes as autonomous patterns of meaning that appear to structure and inhere in both psyche and matter, thereby in effect dissolving the modern subject-object dichotomy. In either case, "agents" is a good word for the archetypes. They operate below ego consciousness like autonomous subpersonalities.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sat May 02, 2020 7:52 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:Are there agents behind synchronicity and coincidence that determine their meanings, or is it our projections of meanings, or lack thereof, on them both alike?


That's a critical question. According to the dominant modern world view they are psychological projections. Jung equivocated on the issue for years as he sought acceptance for his theories among the psychological community. However, In his later work particularly in relation to his study of synchronicity, Jung began to move toward a conception of archetypes as autonomous patterns of meaning that appear to structure and inhere in both psyche and matter, thereby in effect dissolving the modern subject-object dichotomy. In either case, "agents" is a good word for the archetypes. They operate below ego consciousness like autonomous subpersonalities.

Let's 'hear' from Jung :

Dr. Jung put forward a new concept that he called synchronicity. This term means a “meaningful coincidence” of outer and inner events that are not themselves casually connected. The emphasis lies on the word "meaningful."
~~ Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Location 3236). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

. . . the ordinary person today consciously dismisses all divining techniques as archaic nonsense. Yet they are not nonsense. As Dr. Jung has shown, they are based on what he calls the “principle of synchronicity” (or, more simply, meaningful coincidence). He has described this difficult new idea in his essay “Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle.” It is based on the assumption of an inner unconscious knowledge that links a physical event with a psychic condition, so that a certain event that appears “accidental” or “coincidental” can in fact be physically meaningful; and its meaning is often symbolically indicated through dreams that coincide with the event.
~~Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Locations 4846-4847). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat May 02, 2020 8:54 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Let's 'hear' from Jung :

Dr. Jung put forward a new concept that he called synchronicity. This term means a “meaningful coincidence” of outer and inner events that are not themselves casually connected. The emphasis lies on the word "meaningful."
~~ Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Location 3236). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

. . . the ordinary person today consciously dismisses all divining techniques as archaic nonsense. Yet they are not nonsense. As Dr. Jung has shown, they are based on what he calls the “principle of synchronicity” (or, more simply, meaningful coincidence). He has described this difficult new idea in his essay “Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle.” It is based on the assumption of an inner unconscious knowledge that links a physical event with a psychic condition, so that a certain event that appears “accidental” or “coincidental” can in fact be physically meaningful; and its meaning is often symbolically indicated through dreams that coincide with the event.
~~Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Locations 4846-4847). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.


You're not actually hearing from Jung in those quotations. In the first one you're hearing from M.-L. von Franz. In the second you're hearing from Jolande Jacobi.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Sat May 02, 2020 10:36 pm

Hi Felix,
Goethe's Faust was Jung's inspiration of the concept of wholeness if I recall correctly. I've been reading that book every year for a decade now. Faust, with the devil's help, goes for love, power, alcohol, beauty, but what gives him that transcendent experience is the idea of freedom, as he pushed back the ocean to give his people land so they can reconquer freedom each day. That's when he experienced wholeness, and God saved him from the clutches of the Devil.

At the beginning he was bored to tears, nothing really meant anything, and contemplated suicide until he heard the Easter bells. I always thought of Mephistopheles as a quasi shadow within himself, like a daemon, "the spirit that negates" is similar to Socrates Daemon described in the Apology. Maybe I'm just having fun with it.

Have you read Faust, any thoughts?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sun May 03, 2020 5:50 am

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:Let's 'hear' from Jung :

Dr. Jung put forward a new concept that he called synchronicity. This term means a “meaningful coincidence” of outer and inner events that are not themselves casually connected. The emphasis lies on the word "meaningful."
~~ Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Location 3236). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

. . . the ordinary person today consciously dismisses all divining techniques as archaic nonsense. Yet they are not nonsense. As Dr. Jung has shown, they are based on what he calls the “principle of synchronicity” (or, more simply, meaningful coincidence). He has described this difficult new idea in his essay “Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle.” It is based on the assumption of an inner unconscious knowledge that links a physical event with a psychic condition, so that a certain event that appears “accidental” or “coincidental” can in fact be physically meaningful; and its meaning is often symbolically indicated through dreams that coincide with the event.
~~Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (Kindle Locations 4846-4847). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.


You're not actually hearing from Jung in those quotations. In the first one you're hearing from M.-L. von Franz. In the second you're hearing from Jolande Jacobi.

My bad ....
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Wholeness reminds me of the ancient Greek myth of "soulmates." :

At first everyone had 4 arms, 4 legs, and 2 faces. Long story short, Zeus split them. Now we run around looking for our other half, to make us whole.

And :

Make Me Whole - Amel Larrieux lyrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKO86JdM9c
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun May 03, 2020 4:39 pm

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:Hi Felix,
Goethe's Faust was Jung's inspiration of the concept of wholeness if I recall correctly. I've been reading that book every year for a decade now. Faust, with the devil's help, goes for love, power, alcohol, beauty, but what gives him that transcendent experience is the idea of freedom, as he pushed back the ocean to give his people land so they can reconquer freedom each day. That's when he experienced wholeness, and God saved him from the clutches of the Devil.

At the beginning he was bored to tears, nothing really meant anything, and contemplated suicide until he heard the Easter bells. I always thought of Mephistopheles as a quasi shadow within himself, like a daemon, "the spirit that negates" is similar to Socrates Daemon described in the Apology. Maybe I'm just having fun with it.

Have you read Faust, any thoughts?


"In Faust 2, Act V, Goethe has Faust build a city on land reclaimed from the sea. In order to accomplish this task, Faust tells Mephistopheles that he wants Philemon and Baucis, who lived on this land, moved. To Faust’s ultimate horror, instead of doing so, Mephistopheles decides to burn their cottage with Philemon and Baucis inside. Goethe’s Faust made a tremendous impression on Jung and held a life-long significance for him. He felt personally implicated by the destruction of these humble and reverent figures and felt that it was his responsibility to atone for this crime and to prevent its repetition. Healing this Faustian split would become a central theme in Jung’s life work." [It became for him a symbol for the Faustian bargain made by modernity that brought so much "progress" but resulted in the horrors of the 20th century.]
"At his tower in Bollingen, Jung commemorated Philemon. Over the gate, he carved the inscription, “Philemonis Sacrum – Fausti Poenitentia” [Philemon’s Shrine – Faust’s Repentance]. In one of the rooms at Bollingen, he painted a huge mural of the winged Philemon, essentially reproducing the painting from the Red Book. In a letter to Paul Schmitt in 1942, Jung wrote: “I have taken over Faust as my heritage, and moreover as the advocate and avenger of Philemon and Baucis, who, unlike Faust the superman, are the hosts of the gods in a ruthless and godforsaken age.” "

https://philemonfoundation.org/about-ph ... -philemon/
Last edited by felix dakat on Sun May 03, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun May 03, 2020 4:39 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Wholeness reminds me of the ancient Greek myth of "soulmates." :

At first everyone had 4 arms, 4 legs, and 2 faces. Long story short, Zeus split them. Now we run around looking for our other half, to make us whole.

And :

Make Me Whole - Amel Larrieux lyrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKO86JdM9c


In Jungian terms this story represents the split of the animus and anima. Wholeness entails their reuniting.
Last edited by felix dakat on Sun May 03, 2020 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun May 03, 2020 4:40 pm

The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Mon May 04, 2020 2:02 am

felix dakat wrote:
Stephen C Pedersen wrote:Hi Felix,
Goethe's Faust was Jung's inspiration of the concept of wholeness if I recall correctly. I've been reading that book every year for a decade now. Faust, with the devil's help, goes for love, power, alcohol, beauty, but what gives him that transcendent experience is the idea of freedom, as he pushed back the ocean to give his people land so they can reconquer freedom each day. That's when he experienced wholeness, and God saved him from the clutches of the Devil.

At the beginning he was bored to tears, nothing really meant anything, and contemplated suicide until he heard the Easter bells. I always thought of Mephistopheles as a quasi shadow within himself, like a daemon, "the spirit that negates" is similar to Socrates Daemon described in the Apology. Maybe I'm just having fun with it.

Have you read Faust, any thoughts?


"In Faust 2, Act V, Goethe has Faust build a city on land reclaimed from the sea. In order to accomplish this task, Faust tells Mephistopheles that he wants Philemon and Baucis, who lived on this land, moved. To Faust’s ultimate horror, instead of doing so, Mephistopheles decides to burn their cottage with Philemon and Baucis inside. Goethe’s Faust made a tremendous impression on Jung and held a life-long significance for him. He felt personally implicated by the destruction of these humble and reverent figures and felt that it was his responsibility to atone for this crime and to prevent its repetition. Healing this Faustian split would become a central theme in Jung’s life work." [It became for him a symbol for the Faustian bargain made by modernity that brought so much "progress" but resulted in the horrors of the 20th century.]
"At his tower in Bollingen, Jung commemorated Philemon. Over the gate, he carved the inscription, “Philemonis Sacrum – Fausti Poenitentia” [Philemon’s Shrine – Faust’s Repentance]. In one of the rooms at Bollingen, he painted a huge mural of the winged Philemon, essentially reproducing the painting from the Red Book. In a letter to Paul Schmitt in 1942, Jung wrote: “I have taken over Faust as my heritage, and moreover as the advocate and avenger of Philemon and Baucis, who, unlike Faust the superman, are the hosts of the gods in a ruthless and godforsaken age.” "

https://philemonfoundation.org/about-ph ... -philemon/


Thank you so much for these elegant words. I always thought maybe the search for transcendence, or in Faust part ! how Faust talks to Wagner about his two souls, and how one is a romantic soul that longs for greater. I do remember the philemon and Baucis house being burned. They were the last remanences of the old religion.

So let me try to understand this: So the destruction of the pious old religion was bad because we should hold onto some form of the old religions because not just for their usefulness, but because that religion is mapped onto our souls in a way, and to burn it is to forget part of ourselves? So we must keep it, and have reverence to appreciate that part of ourselves?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 04, 2020 3:49 am

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
Stephen C Pedersen wrote:Hi Felix,
Goethe's Faust was Jung's inspiration of the concept of wholeness if I recall correctly. I've been reading that book every year for a decade now. Faust, with the devil's help, goes for love, power, alcohol, beauty, but what gives him that transcendent experience is the idea of freedom, as he pushed back the ocean to give his people land so they can reconquer freedom each day. That's when he experienced wholeness, and God saved him from the clutches of the Devil.

At the beginning he was bored to tears, nothing really meant anything, and contemplated suicide until he heard the Easter bells. I always thought of Mephistopheles as a quasi shadow within himself, like a daemon, "the spirit that negates" is similar to Socrates Daemon described in the Apology. Maybe I'm just having fun with it.

Have you read Faust, any thoughts?


"In Faust 2, Act V, Goethe has Faust build a city on land reclaimed from the sea. In order to accomplish this task, Faust tells Mephistopheles that he wants Philemon and Baucis, who lived on this land, moved. To Faust’s ultimate horror, instead of doing so, Mephistopheles decides to burn their cottage with Philemon and Baucis inside. Goethe’s Faust made a tremendous impression on Jung and held a life-long significance for him. He felt personally implicated by the destruction of these humble and reverent figures and felt that it was his responsibility to atone for this crime and to prevent its repetition. Healing this Faustian split would become a central theme in Jung’s life work." [It became for him a symbol for the Faustian bargain made by modernity that brought so much "progress" but resulted in the horrors of the 20th century.]
"At his tower in Bollingen, Jung commemorated Philemon. Over the gate, he carved the inscription, “Philemonis Sacrum – Fausti Poenitentia” [Philemon’s Shrine – Faust’s Repentance]. In one of the rooms at Bollingen, he painted a huge mural of the winged Philemon, essentially reproducing the painting from the Red Book. In a letter to Paul Schmitt in 1942, Jung wrote: “I have taken over Faust as my heritage, and moreover as the advocate and avenger of Philemon and Baucis, who, unlike Faust the superman, are the hosts of the gods in a ruthless and godforsaken age.” "

https://philemonfoundation.org/about-ph ... -philemon/


Thank you so much for these elegant words. I always thought maybe the search for transcendence, or in Faust part ! how Faust talks to Wagner about his two souls, and how one is a romantic soul that longs for greater. I do remember the philemon and Baucis house being burned. They were the last remanences of the old religion.

So let me try to understand this: So the destruction of the pious old religion was bad because we should hold onto some form of the old religions because not just for their usefulness, but because that religion is mapped onto our souls in a way, and to burn it is to forget part of ourselves? So we must keep it, and have reverence to appreciate that part of ourselves?


Cogent interpretation. That "part of ourselves" is the soul including the collective unconscious.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 04, 2020 3:49 am

Metaphorically the soul seems to be a container in which the archetypes of the collective unconscious are the contents. This is an image which should not be taken literally.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Mon May 04, 2020 3:28 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:Wholeness reminds me of the ancient Greek myth of "soulmates." :

At first everyone had 4 arms, 4 legs, and 2 faces. Long story short, Zeus split them. Now we run around looking for our other half, to make us whole.

And :

Make Me Whole - Amel Larrieux lyrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKO86JdM9c


In Jungian terms this story represents the split of the animus and anima. Wholeness entails their reuniting.

To make that leap would require Jung having a dream - day or night type - or vision, of before the split of the anima and animus -- why and when did they split ... if they ever did -- from them having 4 arms and legs and 2 faces, or into the conscious and unconscious?

Of course 4 arms and legs is just a metaphor, to explain why humans grow up and look, search, for a matching mate. Like the song, we can feel that someone else makes us whole ... "you complete me" ; it's beautiful and wondrous, when it happens ... as long as it lasts.

But I've given up on finding my other half. I can be WHOLE without it, without her. Presently my anima and animus aren't speaking ; she's too impulsive and wild. So I prefer my trusty ol' animus to get me thru. I love my anima, but it's unrequited.

So is resolving this conflict between that buried in my unconscious, my anima, and my conscious animus, the way to Wholeness? Can I then become Whole if I make love to myself ; my anima is hot, and runs around naked all the time ... but can be a bitch at times ... when my animus doesn't take a bath for a few days ; she says my animus stinks. Damn, it's hard being Whole. It might be more than it's worth.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 04, 2020 4:42 pm

Aware-ness wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:Wholeness reminds me of the ancient Greek myth of "soulmates." :

At first everyone had 4 arms, 4 legs, and 2 faces. Long story short, Zeus split them. Now we run around looking for our other half, to make us whole.

And :

Make Me Whole - Amel Larrieux lyrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKO86JdM9c


In Jungian terms this story represents the split of the animus and anima. Wholeness entails their reuniting.

To make that leap would require Jung having a dream - day or night type - or vision, of before the split of the anima and animus -- why and when did they split ... if they ever did -- from them having 4 arms and legs and 2 faces, or into the conscious and unconscious?

Of course 4 arms and legs is just a metaphor, to explain why humans grow up and look, search, for a matching mate. Like the song, we can feel that someone else makes us whole ... "you complete me" ; it's beautiful and wondrous, when it happens ... as long as it lasts.

But I've given up on finding my other half. I can be WHOLE without it, without her. Presently my anima and animus aren't speaking ; she's too impulsive and wild. So I prefer my trusty ol' animus to get me thru. I love my anima, but it's unrequited.

So is resolving this conflict between that buried in my unconscious, my anima, and my conscious animus, the way to Wholeness? Can I then become Whole if I make love to myself ; my anima is hot, and runs around naked all the time ... but can be a bitch at times ... when my animus doesn't take a bath for a few days ; she says my animus stinks. Damn, it's hard being Whole. It might be more than it's worth.


It would be a violation of professional ethics for me to give you psychological advise here. Sorry. Here's a link to some general information on the subject: https://frithluton.com/articles/anima/

Perhaps you may also find this passage from Jung's Red Book relevant and helpful:

The spirit of this time considers itself extremely clever, like every such spirit of the time. But wisdom is simpleminded, not just simple. Because of this, the clever person mocks wisdom, since mockery is his weapon. He uses the pointed, poisonous weapon, because he is struck by naive wisdom. If he were not struck, he would not need the weapon. Only in the desert do we become aware of our terrible simplemindedness, but we are afraid of admitting it. “That is why we are scornful. But mockery fol. iii(r)/iii(v) does not attain simplemindedness. The mockery falls on the mocker, and in the desert where no one hears and answers, he suffocates from his own scorn. The cleverer you are, the more foolish your simplemindedness. The totally clever are total fools in their simplemindedness. We cannot save ourselves from the cleverness of the spirit of this time through increasing our cleverness, but through accepting what our cleverness hates most, namely simplemindedness. Yet we also do not want to be artificial fools because we have fallen into simplemindedness, rather we will be clever fools. That leads to the supreme meaning. Cleverness couples itself with intention. Simplemindedness knows no intention. Cleverness conquers the world, but simplemindedness, the soul. So take on the vow of poverty of spirit in order to partake of the soul. Against this the scorn of my cleverness rose up. Many will laugh at my foolishness. But no one will laugh more than I laughed at myself. So I overcame scorn. But when I had overcome it, I was near to my soul, and she could speak to me, and I was soon to see the desert becoming green.

C. G. Jung. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (Kindle Locations 2825-2839). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Thu May 07, 2020 5:43 am

felix dakat wrote:It would be a violation of professional ethics for me to give you psychological advise here. Sorry.

Too bad. I could use it.
felix dakat wrote:Here's a link to some general information on the subject: https://frithluton.com/articles/anima/

I enjoyed the link. Thanks.

I don't know why I do the things I do. But thanks to CJ I now know who's to blame : Anima. She's a real troublemaker. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with her wild unrestrained appetites.

And apparently CJ had a lesbian anima with quite the appetite, given all his infidelities. He stated that he was looking for "Anima woman", and Toni Wolff fit the bill. But still, his lesbian anima couldn't resist the Jungfrauen.

As an aside, earlier today I tried to tell a guy about anima and animus, and that he has a feminine influence in his unconscious, He looked at me like I was crazy. He'd never heard of such a thing, and didn't buy into it at all. And that's true for most of the masses around the world, past and present. Most people now, and everyone in the not too distant past, lived their lives without knowing anything about CJ's theories concerning the unconscious and consciousness, anima and animus.

Maybe that's been the problem all along. Most have never assimilated their unconscious and brought it out into the light of consciousness ... and so never reached the state of Wholeness. That's why human history has been the way that it's been, and in the present state of affairs in the world today. Jung speaks of the union of the contents of the unconsciousness with consciousness - resulting in the widening of consciousness. Would everyone reaching this state, the state of Wholeness, bring about a kind of paradise? Would humankind be more God like, if they brought their unconsciousness into union with their consciousness? Was CJ trying to bring about Nietzsche's Übermensch, thru psychology?

In other respects:

I'm just learning this stuff about Jung and his theories. I don't know about anyone else, but reading Felix's link, and other sources, I sense some misogyny, or chauvinism, lurking in CJ's description of Anima.

felix dakat wrote:Perhaps you may also find this passage from Jung's Red Book relevant and helpful:


The spirit of this time considers itself extremely clever, like every such spirit of the time. But wisdom is simpleminded, not just simple. Because of this, the clever person mocks wisdom, since mockery is his weapon. He uses the pointed, poisonous weapon, because he is struck by naive wisdom. If he were not struck, he would not need the weapon. Only in the desert do we become aware of our terrible simplemindedness, but we are afraid of admitting it. “That is why we are scornful. But mockery fol. iii(r)/iii(v) does not attain simplemindedness. The mockery falls on the mocker, and in the desert where no one hears and answers, he suffocates from his own scorn. The cleverer you are, the more foolish your simplemindedness. The totally clever are total fools in their simplemindedness. We cannot save ourselves from the cleverness of the spirit of this time through increasing our cleverness, but through accepting what our cleverness hates most, namely simplemindedness. Yet we also do not want to be artificial fools because we have fallen into simplemindedness, rather we will be clever fools. That leads to the supreme meaning. Cleverness couples itself with intention. Simplemindedness knows no intention. Cleverness conquers the world, but simplemindedness, the soul. So take on the vow of poverty of spirit in order to partake of the soul. Against this the scorn of my cleverness rose up. Many will laugh at my foolishness. But no one will laugh more than I laughed at myself. So I overcame scorn. But when I had overcome it, I was near to my soul, and she could speak to me, and I was soon to see the desert becoming green.

C. G. Jung. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (Kindle Locations 2825-2839). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

I'm glad you referenced the location in the Red Book of this quote. If read in context it provides a more rounded picture of this snippet. Simplemindedness? I resemble that remark.
Last edited by Aware-ness on Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 07, 2020 6:26 pm

New interpretations have been offered of Jung's concepts of anima and animus by post-Jungian and archetypal psychologists. One example: https://www.beliefnet.com/wellness/heal ... e-age.aspx Some feminists deplore the anima/ animus concept because it pigeonholes characteristics according to gender. Jung's views sometimes reflect the attitudes towards women of his time.

The images that come to us spontaneously have not passed through a filter of political correctness. They may reveal unconscious desires, fears and prejudices we have about the opposite sex, as well as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or queer persons.

Von Franz characterized the male experience of the anima as occurring in four stages:

As Jung has demonstrated, the nucleus of the psyche (the Self) normally expresses itself in some kind of fourfold structure. The number four is also connected with the anima because, as Jung noted, there are four stages in its development.

The first stage is best symbolized by the figure of Eve, which represents purely instinctual and biological relations.

The second can be seen in Faust’s Helen: She personifies personifies a romantic and aesthetic level that is, however, still characterized by sexual elements.

The third is represented, for instance, by the Virgin Mary—a figure who raises love (eros) to the heights of spiritual devotion.

The fourth type is symbolized by Sapientia, wisdom transcending even the most holy and the most pure. Of this another symbol is the Shulamite in the Song of Solomon. (In the psychic development of modern man this stage is rarely reached.

Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (p. 195). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.



Many cultures have considered the Solar as symbolizing the masculine, and the Lunar as the feminine. Post-Jungian psychologists are seeking ways to characterize “the feminine” that don’t fall into the trap of a cultural stereotype, and same with “the masculine”. They aim to liberate these categories in a way that does justice to the diverse ways we have of being male and female, and of being human.

In The Great Mother: An Analysis of the Archetype, 1955, analytical psychologist Eric Neumann observed that the revitalization of the feminine archetype was essential to correct the one-sided patriarchal development of male intellectual consciousness largely responsible for "the peril of the present day". Neumann said
"Western mankind must arrive at a synthesis that includes the feminine world which is also one-sided in its isolation. Only then will the individual human being be able to develop the psychic wholeness that is urgently needed if Western man is to face the dangers that threaten his existence from within and without."


Finally, it should said that static binary image of the psyche as anima and animus is inadequate. The unconscious psyche is too dynamic and polymorphous for that. Picture, rather, the waves of the sexual Yin and Yang shape-shifting into one another.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Fri May 08, 2020 11:56 am

I don’t know about my anima and animus.. I’m trying to balance my twee with my G. :-s

Twee: all calm like :romance-cloud9:

G: ain’t having it :angry-nono:
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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