Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Fri May 22, 2020 7:19 pm

felix dakat wrote:By practicing compassion toward our self and others during this time, we can get in touch with what's good about ourselves.

Aware-ness wrote:Methinks you're speaking of whole people. Those not whole, go crazy over seclusion, don military garb, assault rifles and more, and storm state capitals to stop the lockdowns.

felix dakat wrote:It seems you wish to focus only on the dark side of the circle. Why do you suppose that is?

Because I'm paying attention. Are your suggesting something else? Lay some Jung on me.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri May 22, 2020 7:27 pm

Aware-ness wrote:
felix dakat wrote:By practicing compassion toward our self and others during this time, we can get in touch with what's good about ourselves.

Aware-ness wrote:Methinks you're speaking of whole people. Those not whole, go crazy over seclusion, don military garb, assault rifles and more, and storm state capitals to stop the lockdowns.

felix dakat wrote:It seems you wish to focus only on the dark side of the circle. Why do you suppose that is?

Because I'm paying attention. Are your suggesting something else? Lay some Jung on me.


If that were all that is going on I suppose that would be an adequate answer. But it isn't. What we pay attention to is determined by our interests. Why among the infinite number of things you could focus on, are you focused on some demonstrators at the state capitol who are protesting against stay-at-home orders?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sat May 23, 2020 6:09 am

felix dakat wrote:It seems you wish to focus only on the dark side of the circle. Why do you suppose that is?

Aware-ness wrote:Because I'm paying attention. Are your suggesting something else? Lay some Jung on me.


felix dakat wrote:If that were all that is going on I suppose that would be an adequate answer. But it isn't. What we pay attention to is determined by our interests. Why among the infinite number of things you could focus on, are you focused on some demonstrators at the state capitol who are protesting against stay-at-home orders?

I understand. You are right. I'm a news hound. So I see that there are hundreds, if not thousands, millions, possibly billions, of examples of people following their darker natures and instincts : not just the anti-lock-downers. And Covid is bringing them to the surface. Jung pointed it out. "Solitude makes people hostile and venomous." As a result of home isolation -- otherwise, solitude -- people are going Coronavirus crazy.

And isn't that the point, or intention, of this thread? The development of wholeness, to address our higher and better natures and instincts?

“the threat to one’s inmost self from dragons and serpents points to the danger of the newly acquired consciousness being swallowed up again by the instinctive soul, the unconscious” (“On the psychology of the child archetype,” CW 9,1, §282).
~~ Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 204). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat May 23, 2020 4:00 pm

Aware-ness wrote:
felix dakat wrote:It seems you wish to focus only on the dark side of the circle. Why do you suppose that is?

Aware-ness wrote:Because I'm paying attention. Are your suggesting something else? Lay some Jung on me.


felix dakat wrote:If that were all that is going on I suppose that would be an adequate answer. But it isn't. What we pay attention to is determined by our interests. Why among the infinite number of things you could focus on, are you focused on some demonstrators at the state capitol who are protesting against stay-at-home orders?

I understand. You are right. I'm a news hound. So I see that there are hundreds, if not thousands, millions, possibly billions, of examples of people following their darker natures and instincts : not just the anti-lock-downers. And Covid is bringing them to the surface. Jung pointed it out. "Solitude makes people hostile and venomous." As a result of home isolation -- otherwise, solitude -- people are going Coronavirus crazy.

And isn't that the point, or intention, of this thread? The development of wholeness, to address our higher and better natures and instincts?

“the threat to one’s inmost self from dragons and serpents points to the danger of the newly acquired consciousness being swallowed up again by the instinctive soul, the unconscious” (“On the psychology of the child archetype,” CW 9,1, §282).
~~ Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 204). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


Right. Jung argued against the catholic doctrine that evil is merely the absence of good. For him evil was substantial whether encountered within or from without. Katabasis (discussed above) is a descent into hell. Not everyone ascends from there. The good life requires courage and personal heroism.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Sun May 24, 2020 7:13 pm

felix dakat wrote:What is the path between passivity and aggression? It's the Self, the Tao, the way of the hero and the sage. It animates mythology and our dreams. Blessed is the one who finds it, and having found it, walks on it toward wholeness.

Having gotten the balance between passivity and aggression under control, I have now, today, inadvertently set myself the task of balancing my Cosmopolitan and Trinity.. from mother, with my Tradition and Trimūrti.. from father.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 25, 2020 12:39 am

MagsJ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:What is the path between passivity and aggression? It's the Self, the Tao, the way of the hero and the sage. It animates mythology and our dreams. Blessed is the one who finds it, and having found it, walks on it toward wholeness.

Having gotten the balance between passivity and aggression under control, I have now, today, inadvertently set myself the task of balancing my Cosmopolitan and Trinity.. from mother, with my Tradition and Trimūrti.. from father.


A rich cultural background that. Do you find there are gaps between the cosmopolitan, tradition, Trinity and Trimurti that you must fill? If so, how do you do that?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon May 25, 2020 12:40 am

But the spirit of the depths approached me and said, “Climb down into your depths, sink!”

C. G. Jung. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (Kindle Location 2976). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Thu May 28, 2020 4:51 pm

"If you are aggravated against your brother, think that you are aggravated against the brother in you, that is, against what in you is similar to your brother. As a man you are part of mankind, and therefore you have a share in the whole of mankind, as if you were the whole of mankind. If you overpower and kill your fellow man who is contrary to you, then you also kill that person in yourself and have murdered a part of your life. The spirit of this dead man follows you and does not let your life become joyful. You need your wholeness to live onward."

Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 200). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
God forgives. Nature doesn't.
"Praying to an otherworldly God is like kissing thru glass." - Paul West
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 28, 2020 8:18 pm

Aware-ness wrote:"If you are aggravated against your brother, think that you are aggravated against the brother in you, that is, against what in you is similar to your brother. As a man you are part of mankind, and therefore you have a share in the whole of mankind, as if you were the whole of mankind. If you overpower and kill your fellow man who is contrary to you, then you also kill that person in yourself and have murdered a part of your life. The spirit of this dead man follows you and does not let your life become joyful. You need your wholeness to live onward."

Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 200). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


How about this paraphrase?

"If you are aggravated against your ex-wife, think that you are aggravated against the ex-wife in you, that is, against what in you is similar to your ex-wife. As a man you are part of mankind, and therefore you have a share in the whole of mankind, as if you were the whole of mankind. If you overpower and kill your ex-wife who is contrary to you, then you also kill that person in yourself and have murdered a part of your life. The spirit of this dead woman follows you and does not let your life become joyful. You need your wholeness to live onward."
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu May 28, 2020 10:02 pm

Being and nothingness, fullness and emptiness are ultimately one:

I begin with nothingness. Nothingness is the same as fullness. In infinity full is no better than empty. Nothingness is both empty and full. As well might ye say anything else of nothingness, as for instance, white is it, or black, or again, it is not, or it is. A thing that is infinite and eternal hath no qualities, since it hath all qualities.

This nothingness or fullness we name the PLEROMA. Therein both thinking and being cease, since the eternal and infinite possess no qualities. In it no being is, for he then would be distinct from the pleroma, and would possess qualities which would distinguish him as something distinct from the pleroma.

In the pleroma there is nothing and everything. It is quite fruitless to think about the pleroma, for this would mean self-dissolution.
tely one
CREATURA is not in the pleroma, but in itself. The pleroma is both beginning and end of created beings. It pervadeth them, as the light of the sun everywhere pervadeth the air. Although the pleroma pervadeth altogether, yet hath created being no share thereof, just as a wholly transparent body becometh neither light nor dark through the light which pervadeth it. We are, however, the pleroma itself, for we are a part of the eternal and infinite. But we have no share thereof, as we are from the pleroma infinitely removed; not spiritually or temporally, but essentially, since we are distinguished from the pleroma in our essence as creatura, which is confined within time and space.

Yet because we are parts of the pleroma, the pleroma is also in us. Even in the smallest point is the pleroma endless, eternal, and entire, since small and great are qualities which are contained in it. It is that nothingness which is everywhere whole and continuous. Only figuratively, therefore, do I speak of created being as a part of the pleroma. Because, actually, the pleroma is nowhere divided, since it is nothingness. We are also the whole pleroma, because, figuratively, the pleroma is the smallest point (assumed only, not existing) in us and the boundless firmament about us. But wherefore, then, do we speak of the pleroma at all, since it is thus everything and nothing?

I speak of it to make a beginning somewhere, and also to free you from the delusion that somewhere, either without or within, there standeth something fixed, or in some way established, from the beginning. Every so-called fixed and certain thing is only relative. That alone is fixed and certain which is subject to change.

What is changeable, however, is creatura. Therefore is it the one thing which is fixed and certain; because it hath qualities: it is even quality itself.

The question ariseth: How did creatura originate? Created beings came to pass, not creatura; since created being is the very quality of the pleroma, as much as non-creation which is the eternal death. In all times and places is creation, in all times and places is death. The pleroma hath all, distinctiveness and non-distinctiveness.

Distinctiveness is creatura. It is distinct. Distinctiveness is its essence, and therefore it distinguisheth. Therefore man discriminateth because his nature is distinctiveness. Wherefore also he distinguisheth qualities of the pleroma which are not. He distinguisheth them out of his own nature. Therefore must he speak of qualities of the pleroma which are not.

What use, say ye, to speak of it? Saidst thou not thyself, there is no profit in thinking upon the pleroma?

That said I unto you, to free you from the delusion that we are able to think about the pleroma. When we distinguish qualities of the pleroma, we are speaking from the ground of our own distinctiveness and concerning our own distinctiveness. But we have said nothing concerning the pleroma. Concerning our own distinctiveness, however, it is needful to speak, whereby we may distinguish ourselves enough. Our very nature is distinctiveness. If we are not true to this nature we do not distinguish ourselves enough. Therefore must we make distinctions of qualities.

from

The Seven Sermons to the Dead
Septem Sermones ad Mortuos
by Carl Gustav Jung, 1916
(Translation by H. G. Baynes)


http://gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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