The birth of jesus

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The birth of jesus

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:08 am

The question here is whether or how Virgin mary can get pregnant by holy spirit( A non Human)?
Is it physically/Biologically possible?

with love
sanjay

Note- to me, the second question is more important.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:43 am

Zinnat, I know you are not a troll but this OP ends up being like trolling.

Your question seems to be asking for a scientific answer to a miracle. If there are deities, then deities can do such things. So, atheists are going to react to this post much like it is a trolling post. Then believers or people who are open to what gets classed as miracles
can
only
speculate.

How are they going to describe how a deity impregnates a woman?

Is it physically possible? They certainly may believe it is and I personally believe in many things that are considered miraculous. But those who believe in such things will not have some physiological answer for you, unless you get some self-made guru type who make some stuff up.

Personally, again, I think she was not a virgin in the modern sense. And the writers vary on their sense of her state, even in the Bible.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/ ... mentisfree
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Zinnat, I know you are not a troll but this OP ends up being like trolling.

Believe me. i am not trolling this time either.

Your question seems to be asking for a scientific answer to a miracle.

You got it absolutly right. That is precisely what i am asking.

If there are deities, then deities can do such things. So, atheists are going to react to this post much like it is a trolling post. Then believers or people who are open to what gets classed as miracles
can
only
speculate.

How are they going to describe how a deity impregnates a woman?

I might try.

Is it physically possible? They certainly may believe it is and I personally believe in many things that are considered miraculous. But those who believe in such things will not have some physiological answer for you, unless you get some self-made guru type who make some stuff up.

Personally, again, I think she was not a virgin in the modern sense. And the writers vary on their sense of her state, even in the Bible.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/ ... mentisfree


Having said that, i do not believe in miracles. To me, we consider some things as miracles just because we do not have any reasonable explanation. Thus, if anything happens in reality, there must be some scientific explanation for that, no matter how miracelous it may seems.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby promethean75 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:35 pm

Nah she wuddint a virgin. This myth owes itself to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek... using a word which meant 'virgin'.

you understand this? It was the word 'virgin' that caught people's attention.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby zinnat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:49 pm

promethean75 wrote:Nah she wuddint a virgin. This myth owes itself to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek... using a word which meant 'virgin'.

you understand this? It was the word 'virgin' that caught people's attention.


It does not matter whether she was virgin or not.

The real question is whether a human woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?

with love
sanjay
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby promethean75 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:59 pm

If these entities can cause sex cells to spontaneously materialize, I don't see why not.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:16 pm

zinnat wrote:
Believe me. i am not trolling this time either.
I assumed that. I would have just said it was trolling though you are not generally a troll. I was reacting to how the post would function, not your intent.



You got it absolutly right. That is precisely what i am asking.
Who is going to answer that?


I might try.
Then that's a better way to start the thread. I think it will simply get torn apart by skeptics, but at least you are starting with an argument.



Having said that, i do not believe in miracles. To me, we consider some things as miracles just because we do not have any reasonable explanation. Thus, if anything happens in reality, there must be some scientific explanation for that, no matter how miracelous it may seems.
[/quote]Fine. But then there is no current science to support God impregnating a human. There is no scientific proof of God as yet. No scientist knows what a God can do, what God's physiology and semen and powers are like. So no one can answer your question. That's why it functions like trolling.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:17 pm

promethean75 wrote:Nah she wuddint a virgin. This myth owes itself to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek... using a word which meant 'virgin'.

you understand this? It was the word 'virgin' that caught people's attention.

It's more complicated than that, see the link in my first post.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:18 pm

zinnat wrote:
promethean75 wrote:Nah she wuddint a virgin. This myth owes itself to a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek... using a word which meant 'virgin'.

you understand this? It was the word 'virgin' that caught people's attention.


It does not matter whether she was virgin or not.

The real question is whether a human woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?

with love
sanjay


Prometheus is right here.
If these entities can cause sex cells to spontaneously materialize, I don't see why not.
God made an entire universe in genesis. What's flicking his divine finger and making a human woman pregnant compared to that.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:29 pm

Next up: The birth of God.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby phoneutria » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:05 pm

few days later six different dudes showed up and three of them brought gifts, just sayin'
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby iambiguous » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:19 pm

phoneutria wrote:few days later six different dudes showed up and three of them brought gifts, just sayin'


Of course that's the thing about threads like this. You can say anything that pops in your head.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby phoneutria » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:34 pm

heyy what I said is on the bible ON THE BIBLE
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby phyllo » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:38 pm

iambiguous wrote:
phoneutria wrote:few days later six different dudes showed up and three of them brought gifts, just sayin'


Of course that's the thing about threads like this. You can say anything that pops in your head.
Seems to have become the norm at ILP.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby zinnat » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:07 pm

To find whether something miracleous of that kind can happen or not, i am narrating some of my personl experiences and thus derived reasoning to understand the issue. Generally, i do not share my personal experiences as they are reserved for my book but this time i am making an exception to clear the air.

As a child, i was very weak and pron to illness. At the age of around 10-11, i became asthamatic. which continued for some years. Cople of years later i started playing badminton and perhaps because of that my asthama started curing and became completely cured around 18-19. And, I never had to take medicine or inhaler again for more than 10 years. But, one night, when i was in my late twenties, i saw a dream. in that dream, i was in such a place which was extremely cold, and i heard someone saying that being at such place is not good for me as such cold conditions does not suit me. And, hearing this i woke up. The time was 3-4 am in the morning and i found that i had a severe asthamic attack. I somehow passed some hours and consulted the doctor who gave me medicines.

Now, the thing to notice here is whether the cold condition faced in the dream can cause some effets to mine physical body! However, let us consider it a cocincidence. The asthma contined for some time, say 2 years. During that period, I had to take one 4 mg tablet of Asthalin daily at night or have to face an attack the same night, and some puffs of inhaler here and there. The life continued. Then, after more than two years, i once again saw a dream. In this dream, i was in a hospital and our family doctor were also there. There was an modern oprational room where perparitions were being made to oprate someone. Then, my famly doctor asked me to lie down on the oprationan table. I did that and they started doing something around my neck and chest. The dream ends there and i felt some relief next day. And, within some days, my asthma got completely cured and never came back. It is still the same even after 25 years.

This time there is no confusion that opration in the dream affected my physical body and cured my asthma. That cannot be possible unless whatever form of us works in the dream also have physical quotient which is also related to our physical body and vice-verse.

Moving on to thr next incident which was some time earlier than the first dream. We were facing financially very tough time. Some payments were due to some creditiors and we were sued for those too. I was dealing all court cases for our family. During one such court date one of our creditors insulted and even manhandeled me outside the courtroom. But, strangly, i became totally blank that time and felt nothing. I came home and the same state of mind continued. Then, i went to the bed and tried to sleep. By that time, doing meditation before sleeping has became the habit for me, which still is. So, as soon as started meditating, the remambrance of that court incident became alive and floodgates of all that frustration opened. As i had no more outlet other than meditation, so all that went into meditation, which reached to such intensity never reached before. My whole body started shivering but i did not stop. After some time, i felt that some airtype thing within my body is moving from toes to the head and my lower body started becoming senseless. Then, that sensation concentrated in the head and my ears once vibrated very strongly, and as soon as that vibration stopped, i felt myself slowly moving out of my body through my head in a flowing manner. As my head was at the corner of the bed, so i moved out slowly like a serpant and crowed at the floor. I cannnot see my body but i knew for sure that i did not had legs in that form. I moved out crowing from the bed room and entered in the living room. Then i tried to stand up and did so with some difficulty. That time, there used to be a showpiece; a metal pot on the stand. I tried to touch that pot with my hand to take help in standing but unable to do that as my hand went through that pot. I tried to that manytimes but failed so in frustration i tried to hit that by force and this time hand hit the pot and pot fell down on the floor making huge noise.

Hearing that noise i feared that sound will awake other family members. As soon as i thought so, i found myslf in my body again. all that happent within a fraction of a second, like at the speed of the light. Out of curiosity, i again went to living room to check that pot, and to my surprise, that pot was still on the stand as before but i myself saw pot falling on the ground few moment back.

This incident and like many same others also which i experiencd later, i realized or concluded that a second dimension runs parrell to ours this one, which is almost the same as this one and most of our dreams happens in this parrell dimension, something what Purgatory in Christianity stands for.
This dimension is the meeting place between humans and spiritual entities. Humans go there in Astral form in the dreams or otherwise and intract with their higher counterparts. And, whatever happens there, have some effect on human physical bodies too.


I would like to quote one more incident of mine to make it clearer. As i told before we were in a deep financial troune that time so we sold our family business and house to settle our dues. That happened alright i was left with no earnings. Then, someone offerd me a working partnership in his construction co but for that i had to leave hometown. Having no other option i accepted that and moved the site which was about 1000 km away from my city. I reached there and started woking. After 2-3 months or so, i developed Fissure. In the starting, the pain was mild and bearable but after some days, i became unbearable. I was niether able ro sit nor stand. the only thing comforting was lying down on the bed on the stomuch. As i was far away from the home and family. i did not know what to do. I cannot tell bout that to my family as they may became unnecessary worried and they caanot help from there either. on the other hand i caanot leave the site also as i was incharge there. Next day. there was that much pain that i was unable to stand. Somehow i passed the day and came back to my staying room in the evening. I laid down on my stomuch and tried to sleep while meditating as usual. After some time, i felt that someone is in the room. I looked around but there was none so i lied down again. Then, my blanket moved slowly and someone entered in it. I felt like someone is parting my hips and i felt some mild heat around my fissure bud. I was wearing all my clothes and my blanket was still on but the heat was passing to my hips. I do not know how much time it continued because i fell asleep shortly. And, the same as was the case in Asthma earlier, Next day i felt quite relief and it cured completely within some days. It never came back again till now.

There are some more similiar incidents but these three are enough to Clear the issue. If all that can happen to me, Mary can also get pregnant by a spiritual entity without having normal physical intercourse, and more importantly, there is no miracle in it. There is a system in place for such kind of happenings. As it idoes not happen normally but only rarely, thus we consider it a miracle.

Of course, all that makes sense only if i am telling the truth, which i am though readers may have their own opinion, which may be different from mine

with love,
sanjay
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:37 pm

There are some more similiar incidents but these three are enough to Clear the issue. If all that can happen to me, Mary can also get pregnant by a spiritual entity without having normal physical intercourse, and more importantly, there is no miracle in it. There is a system in place for such kind of happenings. As it idoes not happen normally but only rarely, thus we consider it a miracle.
The simplest explanation is that Mary was made pregnant by Joseph and her virginity can be attributed to poor translations of texts and anxieties about sex that seem to be common in humans.

Jesus could still be a great guy with lots of good ideas. He could also have a connection to God and/or understanding of life, the universe and everything.

No miracle in it.

Why is anything more necessary as an explanation?
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby zinnat » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:46 pm

quote="phyllo"]
There are some more similiar incidents but these three are enough to Clear the issue. If all that can happen to me, Mary can also get pregnant by a spiritual entity without having normal physical intercourse, and more importantly, there is no miracle in it. There is a system in place for such kind of happenings. As it idoes not happen normally but only rarely, thus we consider it a miracle.
The simplest explanation is that Mary was made pregnant by Joseph and her virginity can be attributed to poor translations of texts and anxieties about sex that seem to be common in humans.

Jesus could still be a great guy with lots of good ideas. He could also have a connection to God and/or understanding of life, the universe and everything.

No miracle in it.

Why is anything more necessary as an explanation?[/quote]

zinnat wrote:
zinnat wrote:The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:54 pm

The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?
I wonder why that is the real question.

It's impossible to answer in any substantial manner.

Why people feel a need for Mary to be virgin and for Jesus to be the product of a virgin birth seem to be questions which are answerable by exploring human psychology,

And there may be some value in moving away from the ideas about a virgin birth.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:28 pm

zinnat wrote:To find whether something miracleous of that kind can happen or not, i am narrating some of my personl experiences ......
sanjay

And that's all fine. But none of it comes remotely near giving us a physiological and scientific explanation of virgin birth. And that's not be skeptical or dismissive of such things. It's just saying that thread is asking for something no one can produce, at least not right now, or they would be so famous they would need bodyguards 24/7.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:30 pm

zinnat wrote:
The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?
Whose answer are you going to believe and why?
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:25 am

zinnat wrote:The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?

Here is the argument;

    P1 A human woman is a real person who can be pregnanted biologically.
    P2 God is an impossibility to be real - see link below.
    C3. Therefore a real woman getting pregnant by an impossible-to-be-real-God is an impossibility or oxymoron.

P1 and P2 are non-sequitor, i.e. do not follow.
Thus the conclusion C3 cannot be logically sequitor from P1 and P2.


I can't see any logical counter to the above.

Generally, Christians [in contrast to Muslims to Quran] do not believe the words in the NT are the exact words of God or Jesus but rather they are merely secondary reports of God words by the apostles via Jesus Christ. In addition, what is in the NT has been translated through various languages.
As such Christians [as advised by most preachers] will not take the NT word-for-word as fully literal but rather depend on the NT for its divine principles.

I noted most Christians do not take the virgin-birth literally in the biological sense.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:54 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
zinnat wrote:The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?

Here is the argument;

    P1 A human woman is a real person who can be pregnanted biologically.
    P2 God is an impossibility to be real - see link below.
    C3. Therefore a real woman getting pregnant by an impossible-to-be-real-God is an impossibility or oxymoron.

P1 and P2 are non-sequitor, i.e. do not follow.
Thus the conclusion C3 cannot be logically sequitor from P1 and P2.


I can't see any logical counter to the above.

Generally, Christians [in contrast to Muslims to Quran] do not believe the words in the NT are the exact words of God or Jesus but rather they are merely secondary reports of God words by the apostles via Jesus Christ. In addition, what is in the NT has been translated through various languages.
As such Christians [as advised by most preachers] will not take the NT word-for-word as fully literal but rather depend on the NT for its divine principles.

I noted most Christians do not take the virgin-birth literally in the biological sense.


You seem to be misinformed about Christianity. Jesus' literal virgin birth was one of the five fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as formulated in the early 20th century. Belief in Christ's literal virgin birth is still essential for Evangelical Christians who hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Why would you exclude Evangelical Christians from your understanding of Christianity? The Pew Research Center 2014 survey in the United States identified the evangelical percentage of the population at 25.4 percent while Roman Catholics are 20.8 percent and mainline Protestants make up 14.7 percent. In addition to the Virgin birth, Roman Catholics subscribe to the doctrine of immaculate conception.

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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:52 am

felix dakat wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
zinnat wrote:The real question is whether a human[ woman Can get pregnant by a non human entity(spirit) or not?

Here is the argument;

    P1 A human woman is a real person who can be pregnanted biologically.
    P2 God is an impossibility to be real - see link below.
    C3. Therefore a real woman getting pregnant by an impossible-to-be-real-God is an impossibility or oxymoron.

P1 and P2 are non-sequitor, i.e. do not follow.
Thus the conclusion C3 cannot be logically sequitor from P1 and P2.


I can't see any logical counter to the above.

Generally, Christians [in contrast to Muslims to Quran] do not believe the words in the NT are the exact words of God or Jesus but rather they are merely secondary reports of God words by the apostles via Jesus Christ. In addition, what is in the NT has been translated through various languages.
As such Christians [as advised by most preachers] will not take the NT word-for-word as fully literal but rather depend on the NT for its divine principles.

I noted most Christians do not take the virgin-birth literally in the biological sense.


You seem to be misinformed about Christianity. Jesus' literal virgin birth was one of the five fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as formulated in the early 20th century. Belief in Christ's literal virgin birth is still essential for Evangelical Christians who hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Why would you exclude Evangelical Christians from your understanding of Christianity? The Pew Research Center 2014 survey in the United States identified the evangelical percentage of the population at 25.4 percent while Roman Catholics are 20.8 percent and mainline Protestants make up 14.7 percent. In addition to the Virgin birth, Roman Catholics subscribe to the doctrine of immaculate conception.

I understand the current default of most lay Christians is "the Bible is the INERRANT words of GOD" which is handed down via traditions. These lay Christians just follow like blind-sheeps.

However at present there are loads of research done and the general view of those in the know believe "Bible is not the INERRANT words of GOD."

Bible is not the INERRANT words of GOD - Dr.Bart D Ehrman(phd)


Bible Do Not Affirm Verbal Perfection -Dr. Ravi Zacharias


I am not that ignorant, I have been following with various debates and trends on this issue.

When cornered rationally, there is no way a rational Christian will ever insist "the Bible is the INERRANT words of GOD" because the evidence do not support this thesis.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:07 am

felix dakat wrote:You seem to be misinformed about Christianity. Jesus' literal virgin birth was one of the five fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as formulated in the early 20th century. Belief in Christ's literal virgin birth is still essential for Evangelical Christians who hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Why would you exclude Evangelical Christians from your understanding of Christianity? The Pew Research Center 2014 survey in the United States identified the evangelical percentage of the population at 25.4 percent while Roman Catholics are 20.8 percent and mainline Protestants make up 14.7 percent. In addition to the Virgin birth, Roman Catholics subscribe to the doctrine of immaculate conception.
Yes, it is the opinion of the theologians in Catholicism and the theologians of many other denominations. When it has to do with God's absolute perfection, Prismatic appeals to the opinions of those theologians he considers
advanced. When it comes to the virgin birth he suddenly does not go along with the opinions of the accepted authorities of the churches involved. In the end he considers himself, The Theologian regarding beliefs he does not share. And never notices the irony of this.
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Re: The birth of jesus

Postby felix dakat » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:59 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
felix dakat wrote:You seem to be misinformed about Christianity. Jesus' literal virgin birth was one of the five fundamentals of fundamentalist Christianity as formulated in the early 20th century. Belief in Christ's literal virgin birth is still essential for Evangelical Christians who hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Why would you exclude Evangelical Christians from your understanding of Christianity? The Pew Research Center 2014 survey in the United States identified the evangelical percentage of the population at 25.4 percent while Roman Catholics are 20.8 percent and mainline Protestants make up 14.7 percent. In addition to the Virgin birth, Roman Catholics subscribe to the doctrine of immaculate conception.
Yes, it is the opinion of the theologians in Catholicism and the theologians of many other denominations. When it has to do with God's absolute perfection, Prismatic appeals to the opinions of those theologians he considers
advanced. When it comes to the virgin birth he suddenly does not go along with the opinions of the accepted authorities of the churches involved. In the end he considers himself, The Theologian regarding beliefs he does not share. And never notices the irony of this.


I think Prismatic wants to dispose of the issue by means of his logical absolutistic syllogism. I see the problem as an epistemological one in the first place. It's about the historical versus the mythical. I've spent a lot of time on on this issue in terms of the historical versus the mythical Jesus. The virgin birth narratives are case in point. On this level, evidence is limited and conclusions are all matters of more or less. But, the deeper issue is the question of the paradox of incarnation. The paradox is the presence of the infinite in the finite, the eternal in the temporal. This paradox is symbolized by the birth narratives of Jesus whether they are taken to be historical or mythical.

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