Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Anomaly654 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:59 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I Corinthians 15:22 on universal salvation. As my friend Bill would put it, "What part of "ALL" don't you understand?"


There are many references to hell, --- which denies universalism.

You should not ignore half the bible if you are to quote it.

I think you're preaching to a crowd that is dwindling. I've been following atheist arguments for over 20 years and as is also true of theist arguments, the atheist ones have certain recurring themes...like appealing in their arguments to the lowest common denominator in (most of the time) Christianity, the literalists. There are still a reasonable number of them around but they're thinning out; your target audience is shrinking. There is an underlying semantical system system in the Bible which is both rational (dictionary type, not philosophical) and allegorical by which it can be demonstrated that the hell passages are metaphors for internal [spiritual] cleansing, most likely accomplished in time. The promotion of any allegorical system of interpretation has traditionally been considered a treading ground of religious liberalism, but this allegorical system--while it certainly rocks the literalist boat (universal salvation is a prime tenet)--nonetheless not only supports most traditional doctrines, it offers even stronger evidence of the supernatural orchestration of the Bible than literalism can claim, and I find those claims reasonably impressive.

Point: interpreting the Bible differently than the traditional literalist way, if that interpretation is able to account for entire themes (like the hell passages for instance) is not "ignoring half the bible". The Cor. 15 passage noted is not cherry picking when hell as a "refining" process has been factored in.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:37 pm

I can't seem to wrap my mind around the myth that some demiurge created the World. The ethics of Gnostic Christianity sound reasonable and good. Why obscure that fact with an alternative creation mythology?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Anomaly654 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:06 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I can't seem to wrap my mind around the myth that some demiurge created the World. The ethics of Gnostic Christianity sound reasonable and good. Why obscure that fact with an alternative creation mythology?

And yet on the other side of the issue there are those who find notion of a designer perfectly reasonable. What I am most interested in is what account can be given for the motives that form the beliefs on each side--more accurately, what are the parameters by which those motives come into being? But am leaving the topic of the op so I'll defer the explanation for another thread another time.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:14 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I can't seem to wrap my mind around the myth that some demiurge created the World. The ethics of Gnostic Christianity sound reasonable and good. Why obscure that fact with an alternative creation mythology?

And yet on the other side of the issue there are those who find notion of a designer perfectly reasonable. What I am most interested in is what account can be given for the motives that form the beliefs on each side--more accurately, what are the parameters by which those motives come into being? But am leaving the topic of the op so I'll defer the explanation for another thread another time.

An appropriate post. Whose motives would you like to hear about? The believers' or what is believed to be the Gods'? Why can't the designer be natural, not supernatural? Is a motive of the creator to chastise that which was created?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:03 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The Devil wrote the Bible".--MH
I never said I agreed with him. For me the Bible is a fat udder for spiritual infants. It can nourish if read carefully.


If your reading concludes with you recognizing that Yahweh is a prick, you have read it right.

If not. Read it again for the first time.

The bible has us doomed by design.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:06 pm

Bob wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The Devil wrote the Bible".--MH
I never said I agreed with him. For me the Bible is a fat udder for spiritual infants. It can nourish if read carefully.

After listening to the Bible videos by Jordan Peterson, I believe that psychologically there is a lot in the Bible, but we have forgotten how to read it.


I would not say that we forgot. I would say that the insane literalist reading of their myth has them thinking stupidly and immorally.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:19 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:So what you seem to be saying, as I read it, is that Gnostic Christians are kind of infallible and can have no biases, no wrongful thinking. How deep do you think the psyche or core of a human being goes anyway?


:D :D

On the contrary. We embrace our biases, both positive and negative.

Our negative bias goes against those who discriminate without a just cause. Those include the misogynous and homophobic.

For evil to grow and all that.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:21 pm

Ierrellus wrote:My last post was based on Greatest Iam's admission of having a Bible in his home. I wrote sentences that might evoke his response. I did not say that the Bible is never spiritually nourishing. Bob is right. One's attitude about the book depends on how it is read. It can offer ideas of brotherly (and sisterly) love or excuses for violence and hatred. I just wanted to see if GIA throws out the baby with the bath water.


Baby! ??

Are you talking about my retaining the genocidal and infanticidal baby prick named Yahweh?

Do you read him as a good god?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:28 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:[q

Point: interpreting the Bible differently than the traditional literalist way, if that interpretation is able to account for entire themes (like the hell passages for instance) is not "ignoring half the bible". The Cor. 15 passage noted is not cherry picking when hell as a "refining" process has been factored in.


Refining??

The product refined is always refined to be purified and kept.

The product of souls, according to scriptures, is to be it's destruction and not refined and retained.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:31 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I can't seem to wrap my mind around the myth that some demiurge created the World. The ethics of Gnostic Christianity sound reasonable and good. Why obscure that fact with an alternative creation mythology?


Myths have to be fought with myths.

We do not care about how we got here. Who cares?

It is our morals and ethics while here that is important to us.

What do you hold as most important?

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby felix dakat » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:08 pm

Historian Bart Ehrman on five things you didn't know about Heaven and Hell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-tFah ... 2vGAhV%3A6
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby child_in_time » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:46 pm

felix dakat wrote:Historian Bart Ehrman on five things you didn't know about Heaven and Hell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-tFah ... 2vGAhV%3A6


He makes some good points, but I would just point out that the concept of a soul predates Plato. We see this idea of a soul hinted at in Homer's "The Odyssey". In it, Odysseus visits Hades and gets these apparitions of old acquaintances. We know these apparitions are not meant to represent the reanimated remains of Odysseus' old friends, for one of the apparitions, a recently killed crew member, complains to Odysseus that they had left his body unburied. So not only do we get the beginnings of this idea of a soul, but also the idea of the soul and body being intimately linked, even after death. This soul body linkage is something that has survived, even into modern day Christianity, with its supposed emphasis on the soul. Of course, The Odyssey is a work of fiction, and was never meant to be taken literally; nevertheless, we can see this concept of a soul forming as early as 8th century BC, in Greek theology.

That Hell is an even later invention meant to scare people into converting should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Judaism, upon which Christianity is based. It is also apparent in "Gone with the Wind", or as I like to call it, the "real Bible" for those understand its deeper meaning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STyAFwX5M-U
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:14 pm

child_in_time wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Historian Bart Ehrman on five things you didn't know about Heaven and Hell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-tFah ... 2vGAhV%3A6



That Hell is an even later invention meant to scare people into converting should be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Judaism, upon which Christianity is based. It is also apparent in "Gone with the Wind", or as I like to call it, the "real Bible" for those understand its deeper meaning:


A good find.

The carrot stick thinking is ancient in man. Cause and effect.
We are learning scientifically that when we use corporeal force on our children, we do not reap the best end.
Punishment, to be worthy, should target the mind and change it before other means are attempted.
You would not want me to punish your body. You would harbor deep resentment. So do our children when we beat them.

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