Peace

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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:23 pm

"We must love one another or die."---W. H.Auden
Compromise is owing to conflicting ideologies or mindsets, if you will. There can be no compromise in addressing the devastation of ecosystems of which we are integral parts and to which we owe our very existence. Nature does not compromise. Only we can do that. Post modern ethical relativism puts the burden of healing the world on the minds that, because they see themselves as isolate entities in conflict, cannot or will not take on the task. Only stark natural disasters appear able to bring folks together for the common good or for any hope of working together to insure future life on this planet.
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Re: Peace

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:08 pm

We either have a purpose or cease to exist, its the main problem.

Indeed as long as humans do not as a rule have a purpose for the world, the planet, its lifeforms, the system it is part of, our species is a cloud of dark ghosts hovering over the abyss.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Peace

Postby Bob » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:06 pm

Ierrellus wrote:"We must love one another or die."---W. H.Auden
Compromise is owing to conflicting ideologies or mindsets, if you will. There can be no compromise in addressing the devastation of ecosystems of which we are integral parts and to which we owe our very existence. Nature does not compromise. Only we can do that. Post modern ethical relativism puts the burden of healing the world on the minds that, because they see themselves as isolate entities in conflict, cannot or will not take on the task. Only stark natural disasters appear able to bring folks together for the common good or for any hope of working together to insure future life on this planet.

We do compromise for a good reason though - it is the best way to get peace amongst a lot of differing ideas.
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Re: Peace

Postby monad » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:57 pm

Ierrellus wrote:"We must love one another or die."---W. H.Auden
Auden is an excellent poet but if that were true we would have died out a long time ago. We will not ever love one another as demonstrated by the entire history of the human race. Also for certain, nature never gave it the least priority.

Ierrellus wrote:There can be no compromise in addressing the devastation of ecosystems of which we are integral parts and to which we owe our very existence. Nature does not compromise. Only we can do that.
True! There can be no compromise against a power with the means to exterminate all life.

Ierrellus wrote:Only stark natural disasters appear able to bring folks together for the common good or for any hope of working together to insure future life on this planet.
That too is true, though unfortunately, like the Roadrunner, we invariably fail to brake before the edge of the cliff. The only direction after that is down. In the meantime there are still too many corporate interests willing to walk over corpses for a profit now. They appear to compromise only to procrastinate.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:We either have a purpose or cease to exist, its the main problem.

Indeed as long as humans do not as a rule have a purpose for the world, the planet, its lifeforms, the system it is part of, our species is a cloud of dark ghosts hovering over the abyss.

All too true.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:42 pm

Bob wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:"We must love one another or die."---W. H.Auden
Compromise is owing to conflicting ideologies or mindsets, if you will. There can be no compromise in addressing the devastation of ecosystems of which we are integral parts and to which we owe our very existence. Nature does not compromise. Only we can do that. Post modern ethical relativism puts the burden of healing the world on the minds that, because they see themselves as isolate entities in conflict, cannot or will not take on the task. Only stark natural disasters appear able to bring folks together for the common good or for any hope of working together to insure future life on this planet.

We do compromise for a good reason though - it is the best way to get peace amongst a lot of differing ideas.

What compromise for peace after a war has not engendered a new war? In many instances some compromises are just kicking the can of destruction on down the road.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 pm

monad wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:"We must love one another or die."---W. H.Auden
Auden is an excellent poet but if that were true we would have died out a long time ago. We will not ever love one another as demonstrated by the entire history of the human race. Also for certain, nature never gave it the least priority.

Ierrellus wrote:There can be no compromise in addressing the devastation of ecosystems of which we are integral parts and to which we owe our very existence. Nature does not compromise. Only we can do that.
True! There can be no compromise against a power with the means to exterminate all life.

Ierrellus wrote:Only stark natural disasters appear able to bring folks together for the common good or for any hope of working together to insure future life on this planet.
That too is true, though unfortunately, like the Roadrunner, we invariably fail to brake before the edge of the cliff. The only direction after that is down. In the meantime there are still too many corporate interests willing to walk over corpses for a profit now. They appear to compromise only to procrastinate.

The Auden quote is from a poem he wrote on the eve of the second world war. ("Sept., 1939") The warming of the seas among other things is a harbinger of impending disaster. While Auden was writing about a world in conflict, his poem fits our condition of destruction of ecosystems. In what sense is compromise not a settling for less than was wanted? Especially since the stakes are so high?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 pm

duplicate.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Peace

Postby Bob » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:What compromise for peace after a war has not engendered a new war? In many instances some compromises are just kicking the can of destruction on down the road.

The end of any conflict may be the start of a new one, but the EU was grounded with the intention of stopping endless wars within Europe. Except for a new nationalism, that peace has kept for sixty years. It has always been about compromise and a surrendering of a certain amount of sovereignty that has been the issue with those opposed to it. The pompous will never die out, as we see in GB at present, but the project EU has been successful for many states.
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Re: Peace

Postby monad » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:05 am

Ierrellus wrote:The warming of the seas among other things is a harbinger of impending disaster.

That has long been known but only recently started circulating among the masses when it was made clear, not by what anyone said but by demonstration, that it's no-longer a theory.
Ierrellus wrote:While Auden was writing about a world in conflict, his poem fits our condition of destruction of ecosystems.

I read it a long time ago but reread it again since you mention it. Auden despised the poem almost as soon as it was written, especially its most famous line, the one you quoted. He thought it ludicrous and dishonest. Nevertheless, the poem remains popular with the masses mostly due to a line of duplicitous sentimentality. Even though there are some very good lines in it, I agree with Auden on its overall merit. He wrote much better ones. Again I'd say that fear not love is the main motivator in the human psyche...the one that forces compromise among ourselves or a total retreat realizing the war is lost if we war against nature.
Ierrellus wrote: In what sense is compromise not a settling for less than was wanted? Especially since the stakes are so high?

I'm not sure in what context the question is asked. Compromises are made among people and nations. All sides start out asking for more but expecting to receive less to achieve equilibrium that's mutually beneficial or at least acceptable for the time being. Compromises with nature, as you pointed out, is not possible. A natural process forced to mutate cannot be bargained with.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:33 pm

monad wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The warming of the seas among other things is a harbinger of impending disaster.

That has long been known but only recently started circulating among the masses when it was made clear, not by what anyone said but by demonstration, that it's no-longer a theory.
Ierrellus wrote:While Auden was writing about a world in conflict, his poem fits our condition of destruction of ecosystems.

I read it a long time ago but reread it again since you mention it. Auden despised the poem almost as soon as it was written, especially its most famous line, the one you quoted. He thought it ludicrous and dishonest. Nevertheless, the poem remains popular with the masses mostly due to a line of duplicitous sentimentality. Even though there are some very good lines in it, I agree with Auden on its overall merit. He wrote much better ones. Again I'd say that fear not love is the main motivator in the human psyche...the one that forces compromise among ourselves or a total retreat realizing the war is lost if we war against nature.
Ierrellus wrote: In what sense is compromise not a settling for less than was wanted? Especially since the stakes are so high?

I'm not sure in what context the question is asked. Compromises are made among people and nations. All sides start out asking for more but expecting to receive less to achieve equilibrium that's mutually beneficial or at least acceptable for the time being. Compromises with nature, as you pointed out, is not possible. A natural process forced to mutate cannot be bargained with.

It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Peace

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:35 pm

Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform. A perfect moron cannot extend respect, and a genius of the heart can do it really well. And among humans unless one is such a genius it will have to come from both sides, otherwise it is just too hards to sustain it, not to give in. And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit? Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful? All these issues have clouded our judgement and obscured the fact that to respect is to be rewarded with great pride and intimate wisdom of that which one respects. Respect is awesome. Come to think, awe is great, pure respect.

We all respect the lightning. Therefore Heraklitos says "lightningbolt steers all things".
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Re: Peace

Postby monad » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:04 am

Ierrellus wrote: It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone.
Those days were never really here in the first place.
Ierrellus wrote: The dream is dead?
It's nice to dream but dreams never accomplish anything.
Ierrellus wrote:Is respect the only compromise we can make?
Respect is always a good thing to have especially when trying to expedite a compromise. Poetic sentiments on the other hand, are not in the least able to manage or cure any of our current problems. Idealism mainly connotes our hopes not realities that beg for a solution.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:48 pm

How is mutual respect different from love one another? Doesn't love imply respect?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:55 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform. A perfect moron cannot extend respect, and a genius of the heart can do it really well. And among humans unless one is such a genius it will have to come from both sides, otherwise it is just too hards to sustain it, not to give in. And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit? Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful? All these issues have clouded our judgement and obscured the fact that to respect is to be rewarded with great pride and intimate wisdom of that which one respects. Respect is awesome. Come to think, awe is great, pure respect.

We all respect the lightning. Therefore Heraklitos says "lightningbolt steers all things".

I can respect a rattlesnake for being what it is. But I have no love for the creature. In other words respect can be another word for fear.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Peace

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm

That is true.
If you don't mind an analytical path, this opens two rather heady maybe boring maybe fertile questions.
Does fear automatically grant respect?
Is fear the only guarantor of respect?

In any case, if respect is a form of valuing - if - then valuing can be composed for a good deal out of fear.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Peace

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:59 am

Ierrellus wrote:It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?

As far as I can make out, the sixties were influenced by protest movements and sentiments that grew after two world wars ending with the A-Bomb and then other conflicts including Vietnam. Being in a military environment at the time, I didn't catch on until late. It became clear to me then, that humanity had gone through hell at the beginning of the century. A hell that, from my place in time, I couldn't of imagined, had there not been the movies that often made the killing fields into a heroes story. There were people who saw no other way ahead than sending young men to their deaths. It was very clear to everybody then, except when soldiers lay in agony in the trenches, but they were heroes and their agony forgotten.

A strange thing happened when the peace movements became widespread. The crime rate went up, especially deaths relating to crime. The taut fabric of society, loosened by the young, started tearing and whatever imagination of peace had developed was shattered by the the deaths of protestors, of Martin Luther King, of the Kennedy's and numerous others. In Europe, we started hoping for a different world. It was protected by the military but provided peace in countries that had regularly been at war. There was compromise made on all sides, but it held.

In the new century, things started tearing again. People had forgotten about the hell of the twentieth century. Young people became preoccupied with superficial things and thereby failed to realise that the peace in which they live must still be worked for. We have to align ourselves with the good and make an effort. But I get the feeling that peace is to many like the water that comes out of the tap, and electricity that come from the plug in the wall. Making dreams real needs an ongoing effort, without which, peace cannot survive.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:15 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:That is true.
If you don't mind an analytical path, this opens two rather heady maybe boring maybe fertile questions.
Does fear automatically grant respect?
Is fear the only guarantor of respect?

In any case, if respect is a form of valuing - if - then valuing can be composed for a good deal out of fear.

Good questions for which I have no ready answer. I just believe that there are some issues, such as the destruction of ecosystems that do not submit to compromise.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:26 pm

Bob wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?

As far as I can make out, the sixties were influenced by protest movements and sentiments that grew after two world wars ending with the A-Bomb and then other conflicts including Vietnam. Being in a military environment at the time, I didn't catch on until late. It became clear to me then, that humanity had gone through hell at the beginning of the century. A hell that, from my place in time, I couldn't of imagined, had there not been the movies that often made the killing fields into a heroes story. There were people who saw no other way ahead than sending young men to their deaths. It was very clear to everybody then, except when soldiers lay in agony in the trenches, but they were heroes and their agony forgotten.

A strange thing happened when the peace movements became widespread. The crime rate went up, especially deaths relating to crime. The taut fabric of society, loosened by the young, started tearing and whatever imagination of peace had developed was shattered by the the deaths of protestors, of Martin Luther King, of the Kennedy's and numerous others. In Europe, we started hoping for a different world. It was protected by the military but provided peace in countries that had regularly been at war. There was compromise made on all sides, but it held.

In the new century, things started tearing again. People had forgotten about the hell of the twentieth century. Young people became preoccupied with superficial things and thereby failed to realise that the peace in which they live must still be worked for. We have to align ourselves with the good and make an effort. But I get the feeling that peace is to many like the water that comes out of the tap, and electricity that come from the plug in the wall. Making dreams real needs an ongoing effort, without which, peace cannot survive.

Good thoughts about the 60s. At the time I was ultraconservative. It took the deaths of the Kennedys, MLK, and college students to "awaken me from my dogmatic slumber", as did studies of Blake.
The U.S. is now retreating into nationalism and isolationism ,both of which are very popular with the majority, which our last election proved was neoconservative. But we dismiss our allies at our own peril. "No man is an island". No country is either.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:26 pm

Auden's choosing to change his poem's line from "We must love another or die." to 'We must love one another and die". may have had to do with his wish to leave "an affirming flame' without false hopes. But the original thought still resonates as "A dream deferred" by inability to compromise. I'm guessing.
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Re: Peace

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:59 pm

Fixed Cross:

Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform.

There are moments/situations I think that respect can call for or be a type of compromise which will make it a relatively difficult act to perform, as in situations where both parties can be seen as having rights and privileges which ought not to be infringed on. Those who "see" this will attempt to find a way around it so that
there can be mutual satisfaction although I believe that one party may suffer a bit of loss over another which can be seen as giving respect and at the same time allowing for more balance in the world.

A perfect moron cannot extend respect,

Do you mean one who is just plain ignorant?

and a genius of the heart can do it really well
.
Why? Perhaps because a so-called genius of the heart has compassion, empathy and understanding?

And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit?

Courage under fire for a just and sustaining cause. I stand in awe of that. Perhaps I am a coward at heart. lol As William James said "The greatest use of life is to spend it for something that will outlast it." Perhaps the limit can be seen somewhere within that quote.

Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful?

Perhaps at the moment of "infringement"? Or is that too simple? Perhaps at the moment when that infringement makes another person lose face or makes him question his own self hood? As you said above,
..."a relatively difficult act to perform." Words have great power and using them wisely does not come easy at times.

We all respect the lightning.

Yes, it is awesomely beautiful and can be lethal at the same time. Respect - to look back at something and to see it for what it is.
But where to go from there?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:32 pm

Human hubris sees man as "the crown of creation" with dominion over nature. Because of this belief man exploits nature and respects the natural cycles and ecosytems only in times of natural disaster. In that instance respect is fear because no compromise is possible.
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Re: Peace

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:13 pm

Happy holidays---and peace and good will for all.
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