Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during our pr

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby phyllo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:55 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:I don't know why people would adopt such a 'god' at this point in time. Any reasons why they would?


The main reason is that our instincts push us to join a tribe. All a religion is is a tribal unit.

Our selfish gene craves security and for a tribal species, that security/fellowship is found in tribes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

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I didn't ask why people adopt gods. I asked why they would adopt this particular "naturalistic god" at this time. Considering that they either already have a god or they are drifting towards atheism, there appear to be no good reasons for such a move. What would such a god offer them?
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:49 pm

phyllo wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:I don't know why people would adopt such a 'god' at this point in time. Any reasons why they would?


The main reason is that our instincts push us to join a tribe. All a religion is is a tribal unit.

Our selfish gene craves security and for a tribal species, that security/fellowship is found in tribes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

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DL
I didn't ask why people adopt gods. I asked why they would adopt this particular "naturalistic god" at this time. Considering that they either already have a god or they are drifting towards atheism, there appear to be no good reasons for such a move. What would such a god offer them?


Unity of purpose, repairing the damage we are doing, which is required, given that we are in a major extinction event that may well include us.

That and our old gods are moral and ethical garbage and Gaia is a great first hand teacher as compared to what our vile mainstream religions teach.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby phyllo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:59 pm

Unity of purpose, repairing the damage we are doing, which is required, given that we are in a major extinction event that may well include us.
Money, power and fame is what drives modern society.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:29 pm

phyllo wrote:
Unity of purpose, repairing the damage we are doing, which is required, given that we are in a major extinction event that may well include us.
Money, power and fame is what drives modern society.


Yes, while it should be intelligent and moral use of those that should rule.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:22 pm

Education about the fragility of natural ecosystem in which we are immersed is warranted. No one wishes to see our grandchildren deprived of clean air and clean water. No one wishes to see the future wasteland so many intelligent people have predicted is our future. If we do not learn our place in nature, we will die from preferred ignorance.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:54 pm

Karpel Tunnel

Arcturus Descending wrote:I think that if a human being had "adopted", for instance, rescued a gosling, cared for and loved it, protected it, that gosling would pretty much worship that human being. That human being would, in the eyes of the gosling, be Everything to it, be so far above what the gosling experienced of it's own self.

That's fine. His idea is that animals will only worship their likeness and so should we. But he's wrong, if the love babies have for their parents is worshipping, well animals will do that with animals that do not look like them, including us.


"That's fine" because you agree with me or because you feel that I am entitled to my opinion though it may not be yours insofar as my definition of worship with reference to the gosling?


Whether we are speaking of someone's feelings/estimation of their God or of their loved one, that kind of an experience is a transcendent one, saved only for those who they "see" in that way.

I suppose that if we all felt and went along with that "should" of his, many animals would not have been saved nor fought for (neither on the street nor globally). Perhaps "worship" is not such a good word to use. Perhaps what we experience is empathy and a strong connection with other species.

I don't think that is quite what is happening. I think its a poor word choice. There is something differnt to me in what an adult human does when their worship a deity.


Well, I am not so sure about that. I suppose that it would depend on the individual him/her self and how mature the relationship is with God. I tend to think that it might not be too much different actually. How do we know that to our pet, our animal companion, we are not as much of a deity to them in their eyes as a God is to a human being? I do not mean this as an insult. Do animals and humans not share some of the same emotions? Are we not all creatures who yearn to be loved and to love, to feel protected and secure?

http://nautil.us/blog/chimps-and-the-ze ... ling-water

Would you agree with me that some adults who worship their God do so more out of a need for protection, hence the words "all-powerful" and Almighty"? Might our animal friends feel the same way about us?


But either way, you are disagreeing with his thesis, since many, many animals have been raised by humans only.

True and if to be believed, a few humans were raised by animals.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:54 pm

Karpel Tunnel

Arcturus Descending wrote:I think that if a human being had "adopted", for instance, rescued a gosling, cared for and loved it, protected it, that gosling would pretty much worship that human being. That human being would, in the eyes of the gosling, be Everything to it, be so far above what the gosling experienced of it's own self.

That's fine. His idea is that animals will only worship their likeness and so should we. But he's wrong, if the love babies have for their parents is worshipping, well animals will do that with animals that do not look like them, including us.


"That's fine" because you agree with me or because you feel that I am entitled to my opinion though it may not be yours insofar as my definition of worship with reference to the gosling?


Whether we are speaking of someone's feelings/estimation of their God or of their loved one, that kind of an experience is a transcendent one, saved only for those who they "see" in that way.

I suppose that if we all felt and went along with that "should" of his, many animals would not have been saved nor fought for (neither on the street nor globally). Perhaps "worship" is not such a good word to use. Perhaps what we experience is empathy and a strong connection with other species.

I don't think that is quite what is happening. I think its a poor word choice. There is something differnt to me in what an adult human does when their worship a deity.


Well, I am not so sure about that. I suppose that it would depend on the individual him/her self and how mature the relationship is with God. I tend to think that it might not be too much different actually. How do we know that to our pet, our animal companion, we are not as much of a deity to them in their eyes as a God is to a human being? I do not mean this as an insult. Do animals and humans not share some of the same emotions? Are we not all creatures who yearn to be loved and to love, to feel protected and secure?

http://nautil.us/blog/chimps-and-the-ze ... ling-water

Would you agree with me that some adults who worship their God do so more out of a need for protection, hence the words "all-powerful" and Almighty"? Might our animal friends feel the same way about us?


But either way, you are disagreeing with his thesis, since many, many animals have been raised by humans only.

True and if to be believed, a few humans were raised by animals.

https://timeline.com/dina-sanichar-fera ... 9f5f3a80b2
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:09 am

Ierrellus wrote:Education about the fragility of natural ecosystem in which we are immersed is warranted. No one wishes to see our grandchildren deprived of clean air and clean water. No one wishes to see the future wasteland so many intelligent people have predicted is our future. If we do not learn our place in nature, we will die from preferred ignorance.


+ 1

I think that the educators are doing a decent job.

It is voters and politicians who do not have the political will to bite the bullet and pay for the clean up.

I grew up being told that the way to leave a place, any place, better than what I found was the way to live.

We are all forgetting that old adage and leaving our children a place a lot worse than what we found.

Shame on us all, while remembering that it takes us all, along with political will, to beat our dismal record of destruction and pollution.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:02 pm

The future world will be either green---pro life or brown---decaying. If we choose lucre over life, we have no one to blame for our impending demise but ourselves. It behooves those who care about the Earth to challenge the current trends of devolution. It is not enough to disavow the myths that brought us to this place; a new and more Earth friendly view of religion is needed.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:57 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The future world will be either green---pro life or brown---decaying. If we choose lucre over life, we have no one to blame for our impending demise but ourselves. It behooves those who care about the Earth to challenge the current trends of devolution. It is not enough to disavow the myths that brought us to this place; a new and more Earth friendly view of religion is needed.
A religion that was intended to protect the earth would be fighting the huge disconnect implict or open in some many current beliefs. Our bodies feel better in nature - as long as we are dressed right for the conditions, have food, etc. Stress hormones drop. We think better. If people coudl actually feel themselves the value would come from their own self-experience, no need for a system of beliefs. But there is so little saying it is even OK to feel yourself.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:00 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The future world will be either green---pro life or brown---decaying. If we choose lucre over life, we have no one to blame for our impending demise but ourselves. It behooves those who care about the Earth to challenge the current trends of devolution. It is not enough to disavow the myths that brought us to this place; a new and more Earth friendly view of religion is needed.
A religion that was intended to protect the earth would be fighting the huge disconnect implict or open in some many current beliefs. Our bodies feel better in nature - as long as we are dressed right for the conditions, have food, etc. Stress hormones drop. We think better. If people coudl actually feel themselves the value would come from their own self-experience, no need for a system of beliefs. But there is so little saying it is even OK to feel yourself.

Very true. Belief would have to become a sharing of felt experiences. Many who claim to be atheists or agnostics have experienced the at-one-ness Nature offers. I think some folks have tried with "Utopian" societies, such as Gasken' Farm in Tennessee-- have tried to get back the open welcome Nature has for all.
Last I heard the Farm is still operating. But such attempts do not fare well alongside the majority's craving for more and improved things.
A small start in teaching ecosystems in schools might be all we can do until some disaster awakens us from our possessive slumber.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:17 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The future world will be either green---pro life or brown---decaying. If we choose lucre over life, we have no one to blame for our impending demise but ourselves. It behooves those who care about the Earth to challenge the current trends of devolution. It is not enough to disavow the myths that brought us to this place; a new and more Earth friendly view of religion is needed.


As the O.P. indicates, we are on the same page buddy.

Let's hope such thinking catches hold and moves us to collectively act.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:51 pm

It not enough to condemn those mindsets that keep humans separate from Nature and from each other. We must introduce challenging new visions of our place in the universe. Old myths will have to be let go as new, rational and spiritual insights are born. The new insights will have to include the latest scientific understandings.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Mowk » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:44 am

So, what does a brother do/due?

what's your waste ratio, your carbon foot print. I'm sitting on a hundred poundz of plate glass cause there is now where to recycle it.

What's it going to cost to dispose of all the LED lights that are all the rage?

Give me an old incandescent bulb. Sure they didn't last long, but they didn't involve mercury like phosphorescent tech did and they crushed down to next to nothing compared to the ballasting required of that tech.

Yeah buy LED, it will last longer then we have figured out what to do with it as waste?

So what's a do brothers do?
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby phyllo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:21 pm

Mowk wrote:So, what does a brother do/due?

what's your waste ratio, your carbon foot print. I'm sitting on a hundred poundz of plate glass cause there is now where to recycle it.

What's it going to cost to dispose of all the LED lights that are all the rage?

Give me an old incandescent bulb. Sure they didn't last long, but they didn't involve mercury like phosphorescent tech did and they crushed down to next to nothing compared to the ballasting required of that tech.

Yeah buy LED, it will last longer then we have figured out what to do with it as waste?

So what's a do brothers do?
Products need to be designed with respect to the entire life cycle, which includes disposal. That means they need to be easily dismantled into parts that are recycled, burned and handled as toxic waste.

Currently the only considerations are cheap manufacture and function. Almost nobody is thinking about what happens at the end of a product's life.

A major obstacle is even recognizing that we have a problem ... that we can't go on doing what we have been doing for decades.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:00 pm

Ierrellus wrote:It not enough to condemn those mindsets that keep humans separate from Nature and from each other. We must introduce challenging new visions of our place in the universe. Old myths will have to be let go as new, rational and spiritual insights are born. The new insights will have to include the latest scientific understandings.


That was tried in the past but when people saw science taking over, it scared them into fundamentalism and literal reading of myths. IOWs, it scared them into stupidity.

The next time intelligence raises it's head in fundamental literalist religions, it should be the last time as the majority, even today, who claim an affiliation to a religion are known by their attendance record to be lying en mass.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:05 pm

Mowk wrote:So, what does a brother do/due?

what's your waste ratio, your carbon foot print. I'm sitting on a hundred poundz of plate glass cause there is now where to recycle it.

What's it going to cost to dispose of all the LED lights that are all the rage?

Give me an old incandescent bulb. Sure they didn't last long, but they didn't involve mercury like phosphorescent tech did and they crushed down to next to nothing compared to the ballasting required of that tech.

Yeah buy LED, it will last longer then we have figured out what to do with it as waste?

So what's a do brothers do?


Pick a cause and advocate as hard as you can.

I would not pick a return to the older lighting as their electric use is higher and that means a larger carbon fooyprint to light the billions of bulbs. That is a guess on my part but an educated guess.

A great cause for you would be cows. Watch the documentary --- Cowspiracy and see why.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Mowk » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:42 am

A great cause for me? Cows.

How weird. A cow can do something I can't... eat grass and as result create protein. I look around the planet and there is a lot of grassland, cows could live there and I could still eat a part of a cow once a month and not feel too bad about the arrangement. Cows graze on grass with a view of both sunrise and sunset every day of their life and a preditor comes along. Not seeing raising cattle as much of a villain. Now capitalist driven means. Cow eat other dead cow parts, are denied the wonder of sunrises and sunsets and gets a bolt to the head for it's troubles. How human.

Not so right. Not one problem but many. And you seem to have clustered them all together, as if the pile can't somehow be sorted out. If profit weren't the bottom line.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:45 am

phyllo wrote:Products need to be designed with respect to the entire life cycle, which includes disposal. That means they need to be easily dismantled into parts that are recycled, burned and handled as toxic waste.

Currently the only considerations are cheap manufacture and function. Almost nobody is thinking about what happens at the end of a product's life.

A major obstacle is even recognizing that we have a problem ... that we can't go on doing what we have been doing for decades.
The new lights are also bad for the body. I can feel that, though I believe there is some pushed aside science behind it also. I special order the old kind of lights. And I suspect that this is known, that these lights are not good for us, but that they either don't care or actually prefer that we are on the badly affected side.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:37 pm

Mowk wrote:A great cause for me? Cows.

How weird. A cow can do something I can't... eat grass and as result create protein. I look around the planet and there is a lot of grassland, cows could live there and I could still eat a part of a cow once a month and not feel too bad about the arrangement. Cows graze on grass with a view of both sunrise and sunset every day of their life and a preditor comes along. Not seeing raising cattle as much of a villain. Now capitalist driven means. Cow eat other dead cow parts, are denied the wonder of sunrises and sunsets and gets a bolt to the head for it's troubles. How human.

Not so right. Not one problem but many. And you seem to have clustered them all together, as if the pile can't somehow be sorted out. If profit weren't the bottom line.


A cow cannot choose to be a part of our present major extinction event. Humanity can and we are choosing the extinction of our grandchildren.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Mowk » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:33 am

greatest i am wrote: A cow cannot choose to be a part of our present major extinction event. Humanity can and we are choosing the extinction of our grandchildren.

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Man, I agree, to a point, as I don't have grandchildren. Maybe you missed the whole progeny isn't the point part, Life is. Yes? I have friends with some grand kids. Don't wish them to come to harm either.

I agree, for different reasons. You don't address them, but they still bring us to a commonality. Humans are very responsible for fucking up the balance of life on the planet. Pay more attention to the result, not so much the means. You haven't acknowledged them yet, so?

Your heart has some really cool colors. That grants you some wiggle room. Two by four, I am on your side. But, hey, keep swinging away.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:54 pm

Mowk wrote:
greatest i am wrote: A cow cannot choose to be a part of our present major extinction event. Humanity can and we are choosing the extinction of our grandchildren.

Regards
DL


Man, I agree, to a point, as I don't have grandchildren. Maybe you missed the whole progeny isn't the point part, Life is. Yes? I have friends with some grand kids. Don't wish them to come to harm either.

I agree, for different reasons. You don't address them, but they still bring us to a commonality. Humans are very responsible for fucking up the balance of life on the planet. Pay more attention to the result, not so much the means. You haven't acknowledged them yet, so?

Your heart has some really cool colors. That grants you some wiggle room. Two by four, I am on your side. But, hey, keep swinging away.

Regards


Life must have a purpose.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Mowk » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:32 pm

If it does it gets made up going along.
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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:28 pm

Mowk wrote:If it does it gets made up going along.


As it should.

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Re: Would a naturalistic view of god be beneficial during ou

Postby Mowk » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:41 am

Funny that regard can swing both ways.
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