Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

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Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 19, 2018 4:13 pm

Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Christian dogma says that Adam and Eve were murdered by neglect when God locked away the tree of life.

Eve was deceived by Satan and the talking serpent that God put in Eden. This caused the Original Sin concept that Christianity calls a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Was gaining an education and a moral sense, which basically is what gaining knowledge is, justifiable to you?

Can you see yourself punishing your children for gaining an education and a moral sense the way God is punishing Adam and Eve to this day?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 19, 2018 4:40 pm

News flash : Adam and Eve are dead.

Therefore, they are not being punished.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 19, 2018 4:47 pm

phyllo wrote:News flash : Adam and Eve are dead.

Therefore, they are not being punished.


Christian dogma says they are roasting in hell.

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 19, 2018 4:48 pm

Christian dogma says they are roasting in hell.
Quote it.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm

phyllo wrote:
Christian dogma says they are roasting in hell.
Quote it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKOjV-wtpPc


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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 19, 2018 5:04 pm

South Park is the authority on Christian dogma. I did not know that.

You learn something new every day.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 19, 2018 7:17 pm

phyllo wrote:South Park is the authority on Christian dogma. I did not know that.

You learn something new every day.


Do you see Christian dogma being otherwise than what is shown?

If so, lay it out for us.

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Dan~ » Sat May 19, 2018 11:15 pm

In christianity both punishment and reward are extremes.
Eternal life with anything you could want forever is heaven to them.
Hell is eternally subject to what we don't want.

Eternal punishment but also eternal reward.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 1:44 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:South Park is the authority on Christian dogma. I did not know that.

You learn something new every day.


Do you see Christian dogma being otherwise than what is shown?

If so, lay it out for us.

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Okay, in the spirit of "gaining an education" and "gaining knowledge":

Fundamentalist Protestants believe that the dead remain dead until the Last Judgement. That hasn't happened, therefore Adam and Eve are not being punished.

Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that, after the Resurrection, Jesus went to hell and released Adam and Eve and they ascended to heaven. Although not quite saints, they are 'almost' saints. Their Feast Day is December 24.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Dan~ wrote:
In christianity both punishment and reward are extremes.
Eternal life with anything you could want forever is heaven to them.


Except freedom of though as shown by God throwing Satan out. That mental slavery does not seem like an extreme reward. It actually sounds rather boring.

Hell is eternally subject to what we don't want.

Eternal punishment but also eternal reward.


If all hell is is pure punishment, which it is, without purpose, do you not think that only an evil and twited AGod would punish without a purpose?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 5:52 pm

phyllo wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:South Park is the authority on Christian dogma. I did not know that.

You learn something new every day.


Do you see Christian dogma being otherwise than what is shown?

If so, lay it out for us.

Regards
DL
Okay, in the spirit of "gaining an education" and "gaining knowledge":

Fundamentalist Protestants believe that the dead remain dead until the Last Judgement. That hasn't happened, therefore Adam and Eve are not being punished.

Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that, after the Resurrection, Jesus went to hell and released Adam and Eve and they ascended to heaven. Although not quite saints, they are 'almost' saints. Their Feast Day is December 24.


You have to ignore a lot of gnashing of teeth type scriptures to believe as you do.

Most fundamentalists believe in a Satan so I cannot agree with your views as they tend not to believe the way Jews do.

As to Catholics. I came out of that tradition and do not believe recall A & E ever being released and if what you said was true, they would not have been in hell but in the grave to begin with.

I do not know where you want to go from here.

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 6:08 pm

You have to ignore a lot of gnashing of teeth type scriptures to believe as you do.
Then show the scripture that says Adam and Eve are in hell.
Most fundamentalists believe in a Satan so I cannot agree with your views as they tend not to believe the way Jews do.
It has nothing to do with Satan. It's about what they think the Bible says happens after a person is dead. And it's not "my view".
As to Catholics. I came out of that tradition and do not believe recall A & E ever being released and if what you said was true, they would not have been in hell but in the grave to begin with.
For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Adam and Eve were in hell until Jesus released them. (Admittedly they are in their graves in some depictions of the event. In either case, they are not being punished now.)

Though the couple are remembered most for their sin, many icons of the Resurrection depict Christ raising Adam and Eve out of their tombs. In many icons of the All Saints type, they are depicted as worshiping at the throne of God, and the traditional nimbus (halo), signifying holiness, is around each of their heads. There are also many liturgical references to Christ's redemption of "the first-created." Therefore, the Church's tradition could be taken literally to indicate that they are among the saved.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Adam_and_Eve

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 22a5p1.htm
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 6:28 pm

I do not know where you want to go from here.

I provided you with the answer to your question, so I guess the thread is finished.

"Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?"

They are not being punished.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 9:11 pm

phyllo wrote:
You have to ignore a lot of gnashing of teeth type scriptures to believe as you do.
Then show the scripture that says Adam and Eve are in hell.
Most fundamentalists believe in a Satan so I cannot agree with your views as they tend not to believe the way Jews do.
It has nothing to do with Satan. It's about what they think the Bible says happens after a person is dead. And it's not "my view".
As to Catholics. I came out of that tradition and do not believe recall A & E ever being released and if what you said was true, they would not have been in hell but in the grave to begin with.
For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Adam and Eve were in hell until Jesus released them. (Admittedly they are in their graves in some depictions of the event. In either case, they are not being punished now.)

Though the couple are remembered most for their sin, many icons of the Resurrection depict Christ raising Adam and Eve out of their tombs. In many icons of the All Saints type, they are depicted as worshiping at the throne of God, and the traditional nimbus (halo), signifying holiness, is around each of their heads. There are also many liturgical references to Christ's redemption of "the first-created." Therefore, the Church's tradition could be taken literally to indicate that they are among the saved.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Adam_and_Eve

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 22a5p1.htm


The Vatican??

The first thing the lying clergy will tell you about God is that he is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways.

Then they start reaming of the many things they fathom of the unfathomable, know of the unknowable and how they have unravelled his mysterious ways.

That indicates that they are obviously lying. Right?

The Catholics also use baptism to cleans our dirty and condemned baby souls and keep them out of hell. Adam and Eve were never baptised.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 9:12 pm

phyllo wrote:
I do not know where you want to go from here.

I provided you with the answer to your question, so I guess the thread is finished.

"Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?"

They are not being punished.


Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 9:30 pm

The Vatican??
Yeah, the Vatican - the source of Catholic dogma.

Catholicism - the largest Christian sect, consisting of half of all Christians.
The first thing the lying clergy will tell you about God is that he is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways.
That's not what the Catholic Church says. It's there in the Catechism :
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... p1s1c1.htm
The Catholics also use baptism to cleans our dirty and condemned baby souls and keep them out of hell. Adam and Eve were never baptised.
Jesus took them out of hell. I already explained that.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 9:34 pm

phyllo wrote:
The Vatican??
Yeah, the Vatican - the source of Catholic dogma.

Catholicism - the largest Christian sect, consisting of half of all Christians.
The first thing the lying clergy will tell you about God is that he is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways.
That's not what the Catholic Church says. It's there in the Catechism :
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... p1s1c1.htm
The Catholics also use baptism to cleans our dirty and condemned baby souls and keep them out of hell. Adam and Eve were never baptised.
Jesus took them out of hell. I already explained that.


My question was on justice of one issue. I do not plan to jook at all the supernatural foolishness withing the Christian doctrine.

Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 9:39 pm

Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?
God told them not to eat that fucking fruit. They disobeyed and they got punished. Actions have consequences. End of lesson.

It's a creation story. I don't obsess over it.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 9:43 pm

My question was on justice of one issue. I do not plan to jook at all the supernatural foolishness withing the Christian doctrine.
If you're going to discuss it then at least use correct Christian dogma.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 20, 2018 10:14 pm

phyllo wrote:
Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?
God told them not to eat that fucking fruit. They disobeyed and they got punished. Actions have consequences. End of lesson.

It's a creation story. I don't obsess over it.


So you think a child disobeying and eating a fruit deserves death and hell for it.

Wow.

Are you a parent?

I am not obsessed with this story but do you not recognize that the Eden story has been used to discriminate against women without a just cause from it's inception?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 pm

So you think a child disobeying and eating a fruit deserves death and hell for it.

Wow.

Are you a parent?
LOL.

Adam lived to age 930. Eve's age at death is unknown.

Now, Adam and Eve have eternal life in heaven.

What's the problem?
I am not obsessed with this story but do you not recognize that the Eden story has been used to discriminate against women without a just cause from it's inception?
Shifting the goalposts?
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon May 21, 2018 10:54 am

phyllo wrote:
So you think a child disobeying and eating a fruit deserves death and hell for it.

Wow.

Are you a parent?
LOL.

Adam lived to age 930. Eve's age at death is unknown.

Now, Adam and Eve have eternal life in heaven.

What's the problem?
I am not obsessed with this story but do you not recognize that the Eden story has been used to discriminate against women without a just cause from it's inception?
Shifting the goalposts?


930 years to fools, as compared to what if God had not murdered them by locking away the tree of life?

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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby phyllo » Mon May 21, 2018 1:17 pm

930 years to fools, as compared to what if God had not murdered them by locking away the tree of life?
Ah, the first example of entitlement. :evilfun:

Adam and Eve did not seem to have that attitude but you appear to think that they should have.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue May 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Christian dogma says that Adam and Eve were murdered by neglect when God locked away the tree of life.

Eve was deceived by Satan and the talking serpent that God put in Eden. This caused the Original Sin concept that Christianity calls a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Was gaining an education and a moral sense, which basically is what gaining knowledge is, justifiable to you?

Can you see yourself punishing your children for gaining an education and a moral sense the way God is punishing Adam and Eve to this day?

Regards
DL

I doubt Christian dogma says they were murdered, since murder is wrongful killing and dogmatic Christians tend to NOT view God as doing things that are wrong.

It's a little unclear what is meant by the tree of good and evil, since when those two categories were presented in a phrase back then it was a trope meaning everything.

I am not a big punishment advocate, but I suppose I can imagine scenarios where I would be angry at my children for finding out things I told them not to - perhaps around privacy issues or if the information was too adult for them (violent, say, especially combining sex and violence) or had to do with things I thought they were not ready to handle or I wanted to have a careful stepwise introduction of the knowledge or consult with my wife first. Given that the knowledge made them ashamed, I suppose their might be exposure to things that could be called knowledge I would want my children to stay away from - anything that made my children feel ashamed of themselves or their bodies - perhaps because they did not have the tools to interpret and place in context whatever this information was - I would not want them to come into contact without some parental guidance. And since I had told them not to - go online to specific websites or whatever - sure, I might do something punitive, especially if it was part of a pattern of not listening to me or us.

I find the whole Eden story quite open ended in terms of interpretation. Fundamentalist Christian interpretations are often pretty offensive. What the actual story is trying to get across, I don't know and scholars seem to have different opinions. I feel a giant shrug.
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Re: Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue May 22, 2018 4:13 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Christian dogma says that Adam and Eve were murdered by neglect when God locked away the tree of life.

Eve was deceived by Satan and the talking serpent that God put in Eden. This caused the Original Sin concept that Christianity calls a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Was gaining an education and a moral sense, which basically is what gaining knowledge is, justifiable to you?

Can you see yourself punishing your children for gaining an education and a moral sense the way God is punishing Adam and Eve to this day?

Regards
DL

I doubt Christian dogma says they were murdered, since murder is wrongful killing and dogmatic Christians tend to NOT view God as doing things that are wrong.

It's a little unclear what is meant by the tree of good and evil, since when those two categories were presented in a phrase back then it was a trope meaning everything.

I am not a big punishment advocate, but I suppose I can imagine scenarios where I would be angry at my children for finding out things I told them not to - perhaps around privacy issues or if the information was too adult for them (violent, say, especially combining sex and violence) or had to do with things I thought they were not ready to handle or I wanted to have a careful stepwise introduction of the knowledge or consult with my wife first. Given that the knowledge made them ashamed, I suppose their might be exposure to things that could be called knowledge I would want my children to stay away from - anything that made my children feel ashamed of themselves or their bodies - perhaps because they did not have the tools to interpret and place in context whatever this information was - I would not want them to come into contact without some parental guidance. And since I had told them not to - go online to specific websites or whatever - sure, I might do something punitive, especially if it was part of a pattern of not listening to me or us.

I find the whole Eden story quite open ended in terms of interpretation. Fundamentalist Christian interpretations are often pretty offensive. What the actual story is trying to get across, I don't know and scholars seem to have different opinions. I feel a giant shrug.



Many do just end in shrugging their shoulders and ignoring the story.

many do not want to recognize how this myth has been used by Christianity to enhance and advance their ability to apply and teach their homophobic and misogynous policies.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is not call B.S. on Christianity's interpretation.

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