Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

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Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Scriptures warn against idol worship yet that is exactly what Christian and Muslims do.

If you can talk about or name your God, you are an idolater. Do you realize that?

God is often thought of as an ideal.

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Ecmandu » Sat May 05, 2018 4:46 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Scriptures warn against idol worship yet that is exactly what Christian and Muslims do.

If you can talk about or name your God, you are an idolater. Do you realize that?

God is often thought of as an ideal.

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

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Jews have the Star of David ... that's idolatry. Technically, marriage, holidays, temples, churches and rites and ceremonies are idolatry.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.
So what if they are? What's 'bad' about it?
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 05, 2018 5:41 pm

The problem in idolatry is when the object becomes what is worshiped and loved as opposed to what it represents. It is not that one should not love or worship God. At least according to the religions. Judaism is more restrictive than the others.

So It disagree with the OP, which is spreading the meaning out to include any strong devotion to anything. Certainly many monotheists are idolators, but one can be an Abrahamic theist without being an idolator. In that case one knows the image is intended as something to connect one to what has the real value, God, Jesus, etc.

And then, as Phyllo asks, who cares?

There is hardly a person of type of believer, regardless of paradigm, who does not become attached to the symbols, words and images that represent something they value and yet is not the thing they value highest. I see no group that avoids this and agnostics also get attached to phrases and self-classifications - skeptic, doubt, opculation, no one can know - and even more so, if the OP was correct...

agnostics are just as attached to their epistemology as atheists and anyone else.

They think because of X, that we cannot know. They love that, potentially, their line of reasoning, their position, as much as all other kinds of believers.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 6:26 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Scriptures warn against idol worship yet that is exactly what Christian and Muslims do.

If you can talk about or name your God, you are an idolater. Do you realize that?

God is often thought of as an ideal.

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

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DL


Jews have the Star of David ... that's idolatry. Technically, marriage, holidays, temples, churches and rites and ceremonies are idolatry.


I can agree with you on this.

Some of the old contemplative traditions used a blank wall to stare at of help them go into meditation to insure that nothing was idolized. Meditators try to get to a position of no thought, do not be for or against, so as to let their higher minds free rein.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 6:28 pm

phyllo wrote:
Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.
So what if they are? What's 'bad' about it?


War and closed minds is what is bad about idolaters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 6:38 pm

War and closed minds is what is bad about idolaters.
And that's different from non-idolaters? Non-idolaters don't go to war and they don't have closed minds?
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 6:47 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
The problem in idolatry is when the object becomes what is worshiped and loved as opposed to what it represents.


In some cases for sure. But it all comes down to the ideal that our minds create, be it forms or ideas.

It is not that one should not love or worship God. At least according to the religions. Judaism is more restrictive than the others.


Indeed. They are the worst of the idol worshiping groups, I think, because their beliefs have done and continue to do the most harm to society. Homophobia and misogyny being the worst offences, now that Inquisitions and Jihads are out of favor.

So It disagree with the OP, which is spreading the meaning out to include any strong devotion to anything.


Which is exactly how idolatry is defined.

If a living God is found, idol worship is allowed. Nothing else is.

Certainly many monotheists are idolators, but one can be an Abrahamic theist without being an idolator. In that case one knows the image is intended as something to connect one to what has the real value, God, Jesus, etc.


Yes but once you name a God, you are an idol worshiper of the mental image you have of that God or Jesus.

And then, as Phyllo asks, who cares?


See my reply to him. That is why you should care.

There is hardly a person of type of believer, regardless of paradigm, who does not become attached to the symbols, words and images that represent something they value and yet is not the thing they value highest. I see no group that avoids this and agnostics also get attached to phrases and self-classifications - skeptic, doubt, opculation, no one can know - and even more so, if the OP was correct...


Your use of the term believer says it all. Believers are idol worshipers of the mental picture they have of what they believe in. They believe in it. To get around this, religions invented that vile word "faith", which is not the same as belief.

agnostics are just as attached to their epistemology as atheists and anyone else.

They think because of X, that we cannot know. They love that, potentially, their line of reasoning, their position, as much as all other kinds of believers.


That has not been my experience with them. although, sure, they will not change their view of uncertainty without facts. They are on the fence and open to being knocked off to either side depending on facts.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 6:50 pm

phyllo wrote:
War and closed minds is what is bad about idolaters.
And that's different from non-idolaters? Non-idolaters don't go to war and they don't have closed minds?


Correct.

Because they are not sure, they choose flight instead of fight. Only believers and atheists see a prize from their fight. Agnostics have no prize in mind and flight is the natural choice.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 6:57 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:
War and closed minds is what is bad about idolaters.
And that's different from non-idolaters? Non-idolaters don't go to war and they don't have closed minds?


Correct.

Because they are not sure, they choose flight instead of fight. Only believers and atheists see a prize from their fight. Agnostics have no prize in mind and flight is the natural choice.

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Wait a minute. Are you now equating idolaters with all believers/atheists and non-idolaters with agnostics?

That doesn't seem reasonable. A person can be a non-idolater and a believer.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 7:09 pm

phyllo wrote:
War and closed minds is what is bad about idolaters.
Wait a minute. Are you now equating idolaters with all believers/atheists and non-idolaters with agnostics?

That doesn't seem reasonable. A person can be a non-idolater and a believer.


I am equating idolaters with all believers/atheists and non-idolaters with agnostics, yes.

Your last is counter intuitive. A believer names his God and that makes him an idolater. Unless you think he does not care much about the ideology of his God, and then the question becomes, why believe in a less than ideal God?

Perhaps I can make sense of what you put if you give an example.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 7:32 pm

A believer names his God and that makes him an idolater.
"Naming" god seems to be a fairly trivial act without much significance.
Unless you think he does not care much about the ideology of his God, and then the question becomes, why believe in a less than ideal God?
If he sees a less than ideal god, then that's the god he believes exists.

What does "ideal god" mean? It has to be a fabrication unless he always calls god "ideal".
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat May 05, 2018 7:34 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
I am equating idolaters with all believers / atheists and non idolaters with agnostics

Would be better to equate idolatry with gnostic theists and atheists and non idolatry with agnostic theists and atheists
As not all believers and non believers are absolutely certain that what they believe or do not believe is definitely true
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 9:21 pm

phyllo wrote:
A believer names his God and that makes him an idolater.
"Naming" god seems to be a fairly trivial act without much significance.
Unless you think he does not care much about the ideology of his God, and then the question becomes, why believe in a less than ideal God?
If he sees a less than ideal god, then that's the god he believes exists.

What does "ideal god" mean? It has to be a fabrication unless he always calls god "ideal".


Strange that you would see a person choosing a God and ideology to live life by as trivial.

If the God he selects is less than ideal, then why call it God, given that God is generally described as perfect?

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 05, 2018 9:24 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
The problem in idolatry is when the object becomes what is worshiped and loved as opposed to what it represents.


In some cases for sure
This response seems confused to me. What I described is what is meant in scriptures as the problem with idolatry. You may see other problems in other cases, but that then is your judgement not scripture's judgment. You may be right, but it is not scripture's judgement. You have broadened the idea, which is fine, but you are presenting it as if scriptures condemn their own religions, per se, and they do not.

It is not that one should not love or worship God. At least according to the religions. Judaism is more restrictive than the others.


Indeed. They are the worst of the idol worshiping groups, I think, because their beliefs have done and continue to do the most harm to society. Homophobia and misogyny being the worst offences, now that Inquisitions and Jihads are out of favor.
But, again, this is not idolatry. Your points may be valid, but not in the context of idolatry.

So It disagree with the OP, which is spreading the meaning out to include any strong devotion to anything.


Which is exactly how idolatry is defined.
No, that is simply incorrect. Are you really trying to argue that the various scriptures are against being strongly devoted to God? That is not a defensible position.

Yes but once you name a God, you are an idol worshiper of the mental image you have of that God or Jesus.
No. Only if you confuse the image with God. You aroe not an idolater if you are devoted to your wife and often when you think of her when you are not together you see an image of her or hear her voice in your mind. If you no longer long for her, but are satisfied with the image or sound in your mind, then you are one.

Your use of the term believer says it all. Believers are idol worshipers of the mental picture they have of what they believe in. They believe in it. To get around this, religions invented that vile word "faith", which is not the same as belief.
Everyone believes in things. This is absolutely true for agnostics, who all have beliefs about what can be known, what they do or do not know and many other thins.

That has not been my experience with them. although, sure, they will not change their view of uncertainty without facts. They are on the fence and open to being knocked off to either side depending on facts.
Sigh. To have the position that they will be swayed by facts means one has a set of epistemological beliefs about what a fact is. As I said already, they are certain about epistemology and you have just confirmed that you also believe they are.

You tried to make religious people appear to be hypocrites based on scriptural condemnations of idolatry. You have failed to do this because you do not use the term correctly, and certainly not as the scriptures do. You also simply list bad things they have done or believed, as if this demonstrates idolatry. But it does not. Your position, as it often is, is confused, but because you hate religions you seem to find it hard to let of whatever hot new angle, or gotcha you think you have found.

Your beliefs about the scriptural meaning of idolatry of incorrect. But you idolize your own incorrect belief and will not admit, even in the face of evidence that this is the case.

You probably do not think you have beliefs, even though you assert things all the time.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 9:28 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
I am equating idolaters with all believers / atheists and non idolaters with agnostics

Would be better to equate idolatry with gnostic theists and atheists and non idolatry with agnostic theists and atheists
As not all believers and non believers are absolutely certain that what they believe or do not believe is definitely true


Gnostic theist is not a term I accept. Gnostics of all persuasion are esoteric ecumenists which negates our being theists. We do not recognize any of the Gods as true Gods and above us.

I also do not recognize the terms agnostic theists or agnostic atheist.

Both theists and atheists are firm in their position while agnostic and Gnostic Christians are not.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 9:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:[.


Thanks for the personal garbage.

"what a fact is."

If two people cannot agree on the definition for facts, then, like here, better to just shake my head and walk away.

I will let you get sidetracked by semantics and the definition of words.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Strange that you would see a person choosing a God and ideology to live life by as trivial.
It's just incomprehensible how you manage to come to this conclusion when I wrote this : '"Naming" god seems to be a fairly trivial act without much significance.'
:-?
If the God he selects is less than ideal, then why call it God, given that God is generally described as perfect?
Cause that's the god he finds.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat May 05, 2018 9:42 pm

phyllo wrote:
Strange that you would see a person choosing a God and ideology to live life by as trivial.
It's just incomprehensible how you manage to come to this conclusion when I wrote this : '"Naming" god seems to be a fairly trivial act without much significance.'
:-?
If the God he selects is less than ideal, then why call it God, given that God is generally described as perfect?
Cause that's the god he finds.


Is your choice of ideology, your ideal way of life, a trivial thing to you?

If not, why would you think it would be to a theist who choses his God and ideology?

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 05, 2018 9:52 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
phyllo wrote:
Strange that you would see a person choosing a God and ideology to live life by as trivial.
It's just incomprehensible how you manage to come to this conclusion when I wrote this : '"Naming" god seems to be a fairly trivial act without much significance.'
:-?
If the God he selects is less than ideal, then why call it God, given that God is generally described as perfect?
Cause that's the god he finds.


Is your choice of ideology, your ideal way of life, a trivial thing to you?

If not, why would you think it would be to a theist who choses his God and ideology?

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You seem to have some reading comprehension issues.
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 am

Greatest I am wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
I am equating idolaters with all believers / atheists and non idolaters with agnostics

Would be better to equate idolatry with gnostic theists and atheists and non idolatry with agnostic theists and atheists
As not all believers and non believers are absolutely certain that what they believe or do not believe is definitely true

Gnostic theist is not a term I accept Gnostics of all persuasion are esoteric ecumenists which negates our being theists
We do not recognize any of the Gods as true Gods and above us

I also do not recognize the terms agnostic theists or agnostic atheist

Both theists and atheists are firm in their position while agnostic and Gnostic Christians are not

Everything you said there is completely wrong so it would help if you used these terms as they are commonly understood

You may not accept gnostic theist as a term but they do exist as they are theists who absolutely think that God exists
And agnostic theists and agnostic atheists also exist as I myself am an agnostic atheist and most or many atheists are
I do not think God exists but I cannot be absolutely certain he does not and so I am therefore not firm in my position
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Sun May 06, 2018 1:19 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:[
Would be better to equate idolatry with gnostic theists and atheists and non idolatry with agnostic theists and atheists
As not all believers and non believers are absolutely certain that what they believe or do not believe is definitely true

Gnostic theist is not a term I accept Gnostics of all persuasion are esoteric ecumenists which negates our being theists
We do not recognize any of the Gods as true Gods and above us

I also do not recognize the terms agnostic theists or agnostic atheist

Both theists and atheists are firm in their position while agnostic and Gnostic Christians are not[/quote]
Ev
erything you said there is completely wrong so it would help if you used these terms as they are commonly understood


You say as you invent a non-dictionary term. You say I am wrong but do not put a truth to refute me.

You may not accept gnostic theist as a term but they do exist as they are theists who absolutely think that God exists
And agnostic theists and agnostic atheists also exist as I myself am an agnostic atheist and most or many atheists are
I do not think God exists but I cannot be absolutely certain he does not and so I am therefore not firm in my position
[/quote]

I see you as an atheist then as you fit the dictionary definition. But hey, if you want to act more like a agnostic, feel free. I do not think you have to invent new non-dictionary terms though.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon May 07, 2018 6:19 am

You are treating agnostic and atheist as completely independent terms
For you are not accepting that agnostic atheist is also a legitimate one
And so therefore no inventing of non dictionary terms is occurring here
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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon May 07, 2018 12:40 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:You are treating agnostic and atheist as completely independent terms
For you are not accepting that agnostic atheist is also a legitimate one
And so therefore no inventing of non dictionary terms is occurring here


I conceded that in my post to you elsewhere previously this morning. I see the dictionary definitions as melding words they should not meld.

They are using gnostic now for atheists as well as agnostics and I have heard neither group say that ----- what they know is intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

The dictionary has begun to mix or meld the terms, so ok. The dictionaries are also using gnostic and agnostic interchangeably, so the definitions are a changing and melding. Stupid since one is esoteric and the other is not.

That does not negate that that ideal, however you wish to describe it, is still his ideal mental position and he idolizes it and hold it supreme. He is thus an idolater. If not, he would not take the label.

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Re: Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue May 08, 2018 1:39 am

Greatest I am wrote:
That does not negate that that ideal however you wish to describe it is still his ideal mental position and he idolizes it and holds it supreme

I hold logic and mathematics to a higher mental position than atheism
And this is because they deal in proof while atheism cannot be proven
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