Answer to WendyDarling

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Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:20 pm

WendyDarling wrote:I'm really struggling to define and explain faith in another thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193985. Would you mind giving it a shot? "Our experience in younger years" has a different meaning to me since I have faith that we are immortal beings due to the transcendent nature of our souls. Would you be interested talking about more spiritual matters in another thread, I'm interested to read your take on souls, religion, faith, peace?

Faith is a number of things:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing, like faith in another's ability.
We show faith every day, when we get in a bus, taxi or on an airplane, or when we delegate a responsibility. It is important for social cohesion to trust each other and gain confidence in our understand of how the world works. This is an investment of our lives in the trustworthiness of other people.

2. belief that is not based on objective proof, for example faith that a hypothesis will be substantiated by fact.
This second case of faith is when we forecast that a certain outcome will come about. We have no proof, but we have experience and, like above, our understanding of how the world works. The combination of these two helps us with our forecasting. Again, we put our faith in such forecasting, even invest in such forecasting, and either come up winners or losers.

3. belief in God, in the doctrines or teachings of religion, or belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc., a system of religious belief.
Faith in God, on the other hand, in as much as it is faith in a certain doctrine or teaching, has been an obligation, if we want to live within a certain society. The society has expected such belief as a form of declaration of conformity. That is why it has been equated with being a good person. This leads to the fourth aspect.

4. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc. and the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.
If we don’t observe our obligation, we are said to “break the faith”, which is essentially the faith of others in our declaration of conformity.

I see a non-religious spirituality as being the second kind of faith, based on experience but having no proof. We forecast an outcome that we can’t prove, when we are spiritual, and essentially, we will eventually never prove it to be right or wrong, because if it is, nobody else will know until they are on the “other side”, and if it isn’t, nobody will know anyway. So it is a kind of “Pascal’s Wager”, hoping for the best, knowing that if it doesn’t come about, nobody will know that anyway. In a way it is harmless, and people choose to “be good” and trust in the outcome.

In a way the second kind of faith, in as much as it is spirituality, is akin to the artist taking up a brush, or the poet using words to describe their love, the composer of music, the imaginations influenced by high spirits, the sexual experience of true lovers and the dreams we love to dream. There is a knowing that isn’t knowledge, or isn’t something that others can grasp, unless I am an artist and can capture that knowing in music, poetry or colour and inspire others to become peaceful.

Your faith in us being immortal beings could be placed in this category. It is a hope, based on the experience of what spirituality can inspire. It is the conviction that this inspiration cannot die when our bodies die, that there must be something that goes on. All I can suggest is that you live your life as though this is true. It can be an inspiration to others and what can you loose?

The third kind of faith has been seen to not be so harmless. People have and still do die for their faith, and people are killed for having a different faith. The teaching normally has a threatening side to it, with visions of hell in stall for non-believers, even if their belief is only slightly different to my belief. This started to become the downfall of this kind of faith, because the drop in believers has corresponded with the drop in violence, but recently the rise has equally corresponded, with people actually using this kind of faith as a reason for their violence. This is why outspoken people today have spoken out against religion for being a prime reason for violence.

There are those that say that religion has inspired great art, but I think that there have been people who were spiritual, and who were caught up in the obligations of the fourth kind of faith. That is why people like Michelangelo were tortured by their carnal desires, whilst attempting to be good artists and good christians at the same time. Of course we can’t see inside their heads, but we have accounts of many artists who have struggled with organised religion. I often feel that, because many expressive and creative people are bi- or homosexual, this is why creativity has often been suppressed by religion, if it didn’t “praise God” in the way religionists want it to.

I personally am spiritual in the way I have described above, and I’m continually “seeing” things that I can’t show or explain to people. It’s like reading between the lines, seeing a wisp of another reality interchanging with ours, or an inanimate picture come to life, or hearing someone speak two different meanings at once. In this I can read religious stories and have a feeling that they have been misconstrued to mean something graspable, but which are really expressions of these experiences.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Pandora » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:42 am

The negative effects of faith. Did anybody at the time even consider such acts as “negative”?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/relay.nati ... mu-science

The bioarchaeologist, who is not a member of the Las Llamas project, suggests that societies along the northern Peruvian coast may have turned to the sacrifice of children when the sacrifice of adults wasn't enough to fend off the repeated disruptions wrought by El Niño.
"People sacrifice that which is of most and greatest value to them," he explains. "They may have seen that [adult sacrifice] was ineffective. The rains kept coming. Maybe there was a need for a new type of sacrificial victim."
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Pandora wrote:The negative effects of faith. Did anybody at the time even consider such acts as “negative”?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/relay.nati ... mu-science

The bioarchaeologist, who is not a member of the Las Llamas project, suggests that societies along the northern Peruvian coast may have turned to the sacrifice of children when the sacrifice of adults wasn't enough to fend off the repeated disruptions wrought by El Niño.
"People sacrifice that which is of most and greatest value to them," he explains. "They may have seen that [adult sacrifice] was ineffective. The rains kept coming. Maybe there was a need for a new type of sacrificial victim."

Although the findings are horrific, I would be slow to lump them together with other forms of faith. There are extremists in all camps and throughout the ages even harmless groups have had their "nutters". However, I do not intend to reduce the guilt that religion has brought upon itself.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:07 am

Wendy & Bob... My apologies for barging in but...

It is possible that what we call faith is better seen in our behavior and not in our words. We have faith when we can trust that the behaviors are born out by our observations. While faith is necessary in any form of social living, even faith can be challenged by illusion or delusion. Life just isn't that predictable even with our best wishes. Ya pay your nickel and ya take your chances. Faith follows trust, so who and what do you trust? Which "truth" is believable? Which truths aren't believable? And so we are thrown back upon ourselves or spiral into belief, which is supercharged faith. Beliefs can bring out the very best of our human capacity - or the very worst - or both even at the same time.

Perhaps we could or should practice a bit of humility and simply say "I don't know". This doesn't mean that we can't live as a good person (mostly). Our ethics and/or morality will be governed by the time and place where we spend our lives. This has been true for a thousand generations. What we believe or have faith in may become the exact opposite in a few more generations.

Hopefully, humanity will evolve into greater benevolence and show more peaceful behaviors. But that is only well-wishing and ultimately, "I don't know".
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:00 am

tentative wrote:Wendy & Bob... My apologies for barging in but...

but you know that you are always welcome … ;-)

It is possible that what we call faith is better seen in our behavior and not in our words. We have faith when we can trust that the behaviors are born out by our observations. While faith is necessary in any form of social living, even faith can be challenged by illusion or delusion. Life just isn't that predictable even with our best wishes. Ya pay your nickel and ya take your chances. Faith follows trust, so who and what do you trust? Which "truth" is believable? Which truths aren't believable? And so we are thrown back upon ourselves or spiral into belief, which is supercharged faith. Beliefs can bring out the very best of our human capacity - or the very worst - or both even at the same time.

I agree completely that faith and trust are connected and that in the end it is the experience that you trust to be an accurate perception of reality that you should follow. It is also something that has very much to do with the people we live with and trust. The abstract faith in something that evades my personal experience is always prone to extract the worse in me, a kind of fanaticism that is born out of insecurity. That is why people tend to get emotional when their beliefs are questioned.

Perhaps we could or should practice a bit of humility and simply say "I don't know". This doesn't mean that we can't live as a good person (mostly). Our ethics and/or morality will be governed by the time and place where we spend our lives. This has been true for a thousand generations. What we believe or have faith in may become the exact opposite in a few more generations.

Hopefully, humanity will evolve into greater benevolence and show more peaceful behaviors. But that is only well-wishing and ultimately, "I don't know".

In fact, saying “I don’t know” is the best way to get there. It is the assertion of non-experiential beliefs that has caused so much problems.

I have started seeing the immediate connection between spirituality and Art, whether music of any kind, painting/ drawing, poetry and stories, analogies and fables etc. It is our ability to express ourselves in the most diverse way that brings the best in us out to be seen. That is why, even if we have different views today, the ancient stories that people told themselves to explain their experience are valuable for just being that. The wisdom that has arisen over thousands of years is to be seen in the same light. It is experience that is expressed in a diversity of ways.

But at the end of the day, when you grandchild looks up to you and asks you why the world is as it is, it is better to say you don’t know, or tell a story that will help that child understand that it is okay not to know.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:00 am

It is our ability to express ourselves in the most diverse way that brings the best in us out to be seen. That is why, even if we have different views today, the ancient stories that people told themselves to explain their experience are valuable for just being that. The wisdom that has arisen over thousands of years is to be seen in the same light. It is experience that is expressed in a diversity of ways.


There is much to be learned from the ancients, particularly from those we consider to have been "prophets". The only problem is that we can never experience their experiences. We can never live in their time and place. All must be filtered through our today experiences and that in itself becomes a new experience even though the referent is ancient. What is ancient wisdom can only be discerned through the looking glass darkly. We may take inspiration from the past but it is ever new. Quite the conundrum... And so we remain in the "I don't know" state of being, or perhaps I should say the state of becomings. We tend to forget or ignore our own evolution and try to "fix" our notions of faith or belief. Better to see every experience as new and bring our best to the party.

As my screen name suggests, I remain... tentative. :wink:
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 pm

see below ... ;-)
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:49 pm

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing, like faith in another's ability.

Can faith in an ideology such as hope be included for I like this definition if that can be mentioned as well? Perhaps I'm trying too hard to combine all three elements (person, thing, ideology) into a cohesive realization of what it means to have faith in spades. Is one's ideology the most relevant and therefore the most important aspect of not only feeling faith, but extending it beyond the confines of oneself? Exuding faith almost seems an organic characteristic or ability that some people possess naturally and others truly struggle with comprehending, let alone exuding. Personally, I attribute faith to the idea that the world is basically good but corrupted by discontent which is certainly witnessed by the callous actions of fearful people and even by some elements of tumultuous Mother Nature reinventing herself.

I see a non-religious spirituality as being the second kind of faith, based on experience but having no proof. We forecast an outcome that we can’t prove, when we are spiritual, and essentially, we will eventually never prove it to be right or wrong, because if it is, nobody else will know until they are on the “other side”, and if it isn’t, nobody will know anyway. So it is a kind of “Pascal’s Wager”, hoping for the best, knowing that if it doesn’t come about, nobody will know that anyway. In a way it is harmless, and people choose to “be good” and trust in the outcome.

In a way the second kind of faith, in as much as it is spirituality, is akin to the artist taking up a brush, or the poet using words to describe their love, the composer of music, the imaginations influenced by high spirits, the sexual experience of true lovers and the dreams we love to dream. There is a knowing that isn’t knowledge, or isn’t something that others can grasp, unless I am an artist and can capture that knowing in music, poetry or colour and inspire others to become peaceful.

No, faith needn't be religious in and of itself firstly, but secondly, faith needn't be in any organized way at all, I agree. While we can place faith outwards onto people, objects, or ideas, it arises as an internal dialogue that one has with oneself, oft about the identity of oneself namely in being unchanged in how an artist paints the world, we, the artist, paint our world, always with our touches undetoured by the world around us.

The third kind of faith has been seen to not be so harmless. People have and still do die for their faith, and people are killed for having a different faith. The teaching normally has a threatening side to it, with visions of hell in stall for non-believers, even if their belief is only slightly different to my belief. This started to become the downfall of this kind of faith, because the drop in believers has corresponded with the drop in violence, but recently the rise has equally corresponded, with people actually using this kind of faith as a reason for their violence. This is why outspoken people today have spoken out against religion for being a prime reason for violence.

Organized religions can be dangerous when a person's internal dialogue and conscience is replaced or beaten down even by an unrelenting external force such as Christianity, Islam, Pagan where ideas are pressed upon a person to be accepted as if they were natural when they're not. Some religious teachings and philosophies may align with the better qualities of humanity, but how could a religion ever know you better than yourself? Spirituality seems a more benign and open-ended self professed discussion a person can have with their own nature, letting their own truth and sensibilities guide them along through life.

As a spiritualist, what are your thoughts on having a soul? Then in terms of emotions and their powerful effects on one's psyche, where would peace fall into place for you?
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Tue May 01, 2018 10:07 am

WendyDarling wrote:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing, like faith in another's ability.

Can faith in an ideology such as hope be included for I like this definition if that can be mentioned as well? Perhaps I'm trying too hard to combine all three elements (person, thing, ideology) into a cohesive realization of what it means to have faith in spades. Is one's ideology the most relevant and therefore the most important aspect of not only feeling faith, but extending it beyond the confines of oneself? Exuding faith almost seems an organic characteristic or ability that some people possess naturally and others truly struggle with comprehending, let alone exuding. Personally, I attribute faith to the idea that the world is basically good but corrupted by discontent which is certainly witnessed by the callous actions of fearful people and even by some elements of tumultuous Mother Nature reinventing herself.

Ideologies are generally under the third kind of faith, lumped together with religions. This is because there tends to be a doctrine involved over which people at some time disagree. On the other hand, if a person embodies a kind of behaviour to the degree that I can trust them, it may be that an ideology is behind the behaviour in question and so, indirectly it may be involved. It is when an ideology is almost the object of worship that things go wrong.

It is as tentative said, it is trust that plays the biggest role. People and things that have shown themselves to be trustworthy I can have faith in. I can also have a belief that has continually shown itself to be true, but doesn’t have general acceptance, in which I can put my faith, but here we are drifting into the second category of faith (which we are bound to do).

Exuding faith can be done in all kinds of ways, in the way I lead my life and treat other people, in my habits, in my views. It can be through art, song and poetry that I express my perceptions of the world. The worst way, in my view, is when we start competing with other ideas. As I have said before, humankind has this storytelling gene that helps them make sense of things, but the stories we make up have all our perspective. Whether a cultural or geographical perspective, we have a certain way of seeing things that we can’t expect others to have, but if we listen to each others stories, we may gain a better meta-perspective. We may even gain the perspective of mother nature.

No, faith needn't be religious in and of itself firstly, but secondly, faith needn't be in any organized way at all, I agree. While we can place faith outwards onto people, objects, or ideas, it arises as an internal dialogue that one has with oneself, oft about the identity of oneself namely in being unchanged in how an artist paints the world, we, the artist, paint our world, always with our touches undetoured by the world around us.

Oh definitely, our inward monologue is full of ideas of who we are in this world. It rants a bit as well, but that voice is largely our ego trying to put ourselves first. Fortunately we do have, to varying degrees it would seem, an understanding that interaction is indispensable for our wellbeing, and all attempts to only put ourselves first end tragically. Just as we cannot not communicate, we cannot not interact, which is largely communication. That is why the idea of unique ideas is really an illusion, we constantly transmit ideas and someone finally makes an idea into reality and claims to have had the original idea. So it is with all ideas.

Organized religions can be dangerous when a person's internal dialogue and conscience is replaced or beaten down even by an unrelenting external force such as Christianity, Islam, Pagan where ideas are pressed upon a person to be accepted as if they were natural when they're not. Some religious teachings and philosophies may align with the better qualities of humanity, but how could a religion ever know you better than yourself? Spirituality seems a more benign and open-ended self professed discussion a person can have with their own nature, letting their own truth and sensibilities guide them along through life.

I haven’t thought about the internal dialogue being suppressed in that way, probably because I was brought up in a certain culture that suggested that its way of explaining things was correct. I finally rebelled at twenty, when I wanted to “prove Christianity wrong, or face the consequences”, but my idea of what was wrong about Christianity was wrong itself. I found a lot of truth there, but not the way I had been taught, nor the way it is often preached today. It is very much a description from experience and tries to convey that experience in stories that install awe in the readers or, more accurately, the listeners. Of course the Bible is dated, but it still can let you travel on an adventure and have you experience that brutal reality. The trouble was that this discovery was beyond most people I spoke to. The more indoctrinated, the more difficult the conversations became. Funnily enough, when I retold the stories, I had a lot of people who were amazed at how they could come to life. They just didn’t want to accept that that is what those stories are supposed to do.

I think that some of the stories do help us to get to know ourselves better, and the fact that we are momentarily in our fantasies when we are confronted with these revelations gives us a chance to adapt better. I have been told by various people how through my story “the spirit hit them”, which is a descriptive way of saying they had such a revelation. However, it is an attribute of such stories that cause this reaction to occur, and the job of the storyteller to serve the story.

As a spiritualist, what are your thoughts on having a soul? Then in terms of emotions and their powerful effects on one's psyche, where would peace fall into place for you?

The soul is elusive. I have heard a powerful suggestion that our vegetative system is full of grey matter and could possibly transmit feelings and intuitions that are often an enhancement of our thoughts and deliberations. As to whether this has any kind of duration outside of our biological processes is something that I have yet to be convinced of. It is an idea that far more intelligent people than I have embraced but leaves me lacking a conception of how it could be sustained.

Peace is a condition that begins in the individual and is hopefully contagious. However, I have yet to experience perfect peace myself. I find that the peace I experience is the coming to terms with the “suchness” of the world and accepting that my ideas of how it “should be” are obviously not the ideas of other people. Consequently, accepting that the best experience I can have is when I feel how my wife and I harmonise, or how things come together in a way that I could hardly have hoped for. I have stood in nature, most present in Sri Lanka, and had that “multi-druple” experience of nature alive all around me.

At my age, with my body reminding me every day that it will fail sometime, such experiences are seldom perfect. Probably the best experience of peace is on my cushion, when my thoughts just pass by without disturbing me – but then my tinnitus spoils it all and it is down to accepting the “suchness” of my experience and feeling gratitude.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Tue May 01, 2018 11:24 pm

Hi Bob,

Peace is a condition that begins in the individual and is hopefully contagious. However, I have yet to experience perfect peace myself. I find that the peace I experience is the coming to terms with the “suchness” of the world and accepting that my ideas of how it “should be” are obviously not the ideas of other people. Consequently, accepting that the best experience I can have is when I feel how my wife and I harmonise, or how things come together in a way that I could hardly have hoped for. I have stood in nature, most present in Sri Lanka, and had that “multi-druple” experience of nature alive all around me.


I suspect that it is possible that you have given up on knowing and now look to understanding. Only here can striving to "right" the world be dismissed and ego becomes irrelevant. I question perfect peace because as an animal, we struggle to obtain the means of survival, but it seems possible to obtain contentment - even if such a state of being is only temporary.

Let's not talk about failing body (parts). Please? :lol: #-o

Wendy,

On knowing... You know how to tie your shoe laces, right? You learned it at an early age and it was almost a test to see how bright you were. Today, there are thousands (maybe millions) of children who will never learn to tie their shoe laces. Why? VELCRO. So much for "knowing". What we can know is both immediate and direct. Our knowing may be quite different tomorrow. We can't stop evolving, so knowing becomes ephemeral. Better to seek understanding and that happens almost in spite of words.

Is there a soul? Well, it sounds comforting to believe that our uniqueness is perpetual but... Somehow, by some collection of circumstances, we have sentience. Isn't that enough? In most ways, asking if there is a soul really isn't a question because there is no answer beyond pure speculation. It is an un-question question. We can be grateful that we came into being as a human but it ends there. That came across as a bit harsh, so if you need to have a soul that's perfectly OK.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Dan~ » Wed May 02, 2018 3:36 am

Peace is a condition that begins in the individual and is hopefully contagious. However, I have yet to experience perfect peace myself.

Peace is a vital luxury that we can hold as a guest in our household.
Peace for the sake of peace, not as an escape to unpeace, but instead, a peaceful and gentle embracing of natural forces.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Wed May 02, 2018 5:01 pm

tentative wrote:I suspect that it is possible that you have given up on knowing and now look to understanding. Only here can striving to "right" the world be dismissed and ego becomes irrelevant. I question perfect peace because as an animal, we struggle to obtain the means of survival, but it seems possible to obtain contentment - even if such a state of being is only temporary.

Let's not talk about failing body (parts). Please? :lol: #-o

:D

I think there is a bit of both in me, accepting the way it is doesn't stop me trying to "right" the world around me, especially if people I care about are struggling. However, I only offer my services and I don't force it upon people. The introvert in me is avoiding the Maschine more and more.

I think that there is a way around the Maschine, at least at present, although it seems to be finding everyone who tries to keep out of the system and drag them in. When I finally retire, I might go offline completely and revert to written letters - if there is a postal service still around. ;-) - and write on scraps of paper. At least there will be something for people to find when I'm gone ... :lol:
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Thu May 03, 2018 6:54 pm

Dan,

Peace is a vital luxury that we can hold as a guest in our household.
Peace for the sake of peace, not as an escape to unpeace, but instead, a peaceful and gentle embracing of natural forces.


Yes, embracing peace and not as an escape from un-peace. Intent is everything.

Bob,

When I finally retire, I might go offline completely and revert to written letters - if there is a postal service still around. ;-) - and write on scraps of paper. At least there will be something for people to find when I'm gone ... :lol:


I think it highly unlikely since there is no precedent for a Gospel of Bob. :lol: But perhaps some sort of commentary in an obscure collection of commentaries? That might be a possible. We are but whisperers in a world of babble...
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Dan~ » Thu May 03, 2018 11:00 pm

tentative wrote:Dan,
Peace is a vital luxury that we can hold as a guest in our household.
Peace for the sake of peace, not as an escape to unpeace, but instead, a peaceful and gentle embracing of natural forces.

Yes, embracing peace and not as an escape from un-peace. Intent is everything.

Few people will understand this. I'm impressed. Thank you.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Fri May 04, 2018 9:13 pm

tentative wrote:Bob,

When I finally retire, I might go offline completely and revert to written letters - if there is a postal service still around. ;-) - and write on scraps of paper. At least there will be something for people to find when I'm gone ... :lol:


I think it highly unlikely since there is no precedent for a Gospel of Bob. :lol: But perhaps some sort of commentary in an obscure collection of commentaries? That might be a possible. We are but whisperers in a world of babble...

In the beginning, there was potential that was contained, but then erupted and the emptiness was penetrated by expanding material that created the stars and planets. The diversity of these stars and planets brought forth a multitude of conditions, some of which allowed an insemination with the life germ. Over and over again, where conditions were suitable, out of seemingly inanimate material, life came forth, grew and died again. This occurred over millions of years until in one system, on our planet, where the insemination was explosive and repeatedly a vast diversity of life forms developed and became extinct, at some stage, in at least one species, sentience grew.

This was an ultimate development. A species that was led by sensation and consciousness, and began to understand its surroundings and seek meaning in its life. Mankind could adapt to varying conditions, and developed a collective intent by which he was able to change the conditions under which he lived, but he lived and suffered under his duality and sought the singularity. Their sentience was beleaguered by their carnal origins, and for millennia they struggled with this awareness. Here and there, now and then they found peace, but following generations took it for granted and it was lost again...

The beginning of my Gospel ... :-k
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Sat May 05, 2018 4:23 am

The beginning of my Gospel ... :-k


I could easily be wrong, but isn't the beginning also the end? The fuss and furor of each generation is different, but always the same song, different verse. A two paragraph epistle that sums it all up. Get it carved in stone. It will last longer - not in "progress", but in understanding.

Good work, Bob.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Sat May 05, 2018 5:21 am

tentative wrote:
The beginning of my Gospel ... :-k


I could easily be wrong, but isn't the beginning also the end? The fuss and furor of each generation is different, but always the same song, different verse. A two paragraph epistle that sums it all up. Get it carved in stone. It will last longer - not in "progress", but in understanding.

Good work, Bob.

Thanks, I have also wondered whether it stays in a never ending loop, until resources run out or somebody decides annihilation is the best way out. The "good news" is hardly that, but that the potential of sentience, although strained and handled roughly, is still there. It is a potential that only a few will use wisely, and others will suffer by it.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Sun May 06, 2018 3:23 am

Bob wrote:
tentative wrote:
The beginning of my Gospel ... :-k


I could easily be wrong, but isn't the beginning also the end? The fuss and furor of each generation is different, but always the same song, different verse. A two paragraph epistle that sums it all up. Get it carved in stone. It will last longer - not in "progress", but in understanding.

Good work, Bob.

Thanks, I have also wondered whether it stays in a never ending loop, until resources run out or somebody decides annihilation is the best way out. The "good news" is hardly that, but that the potential of sentience, although strained and handled roughly, is still there. It is a potential that only a few will use wisely, and others will suffer by it.


I tend to think of "all" as field and focus, probably because of my Taoist leanings. From the mystery of the field (universe) comes focus - creation. From what little we have learned of the universe, it is observable that things (including humans) come into being from the field and then over time, return to the field. Stars are born and die. Sure, it may take a few million years or perhaps a couple billion years but who is counting? In this sense, sentience becomes a subset, not the end all be all. It's quite possible that sentience has or will arise hundreds or thousands of times as part of the constant cosmic dance.

Against this backdrop, we are left with making this life, in this time, as benevolent as possible both personally and in community. This in no way provides sentience with purpose, but you gotta start somewhere...
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Dan~ » Sun May 06, 2018 3:42 am

probably because of my Taoist leanings.

I'm re-reading tao te ching, and im on chapter 50.
This in no way provides sentience with purpose, but you gotta start somewhere...

Purpose is part of higher evolution/development.
A successful philosopher knows who and what he is, what and where things should be done, and why.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Bob » Sun May 06, 2018 4:39 am

tentative wrote:I tend to think of "all" as field and focus, probably because of my Taoist leanings. From the mystery of the field (universe) comes focus - creation. From what little we have learned of the universe, it is observable that things (including humans) come into being from the field and then over time, return to the field. Stars are born and die. Sure, it may take a few million years or perhaps a couple billion years but who is counting? In this sense, sentience becomes a subset, not the end all be all. It's quite possible that sentience has or will arise hundreds or thousands of times as part of the constant cosmic dance.

Against this backdrop, we are left with making this life, in this time, as benevolent as possible both personally and in community. This in no way provides sentience with purpose, but you gotta start somewhere...

Thats right, your field is my emptiness, and there is a coming and going of all things, into sight and out if sight, but that is all we have for a brief moment. The emptiness seems to be devoid of any concept of time, and it is our sentience that makes us struggle with transience, that look back at a fleeting experience. On the other hand, that is why people who can look back try to impress on younger people that they must try to make the best out of what they have, whilst they can – “the greatest good for the biggest number” seems to be the goal that does the most to promote benevolence.

And it is also right, we have to start somewhere … if we care about those that follow.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby tentative » Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 am

I hope Wendy got what she needed from this thread even though we sorta wandered a bit - but not really. What is faith and/or belief has all the limitations of borders and boundaries that are only a small part of our potential sentience.
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I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: Answer to WendyDarling

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue May 08, 2018 2:53 pm

Dan,


Peace is a vital luxury that we can hold as a guest in our household.

Why do you call peace a guest?


Peace for the sake of peace, not as an escape to unpeace, but instead, a peaceful and gentle embracing of natural forces.


Did you mean to say *not as an escape from unpeace?

but instead, a peaceful and gentle embracing of natural forces


That sounds more to me like "acceptance" than peace. Is there always peace within acceptance?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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