Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 pm

phyllo wrote:I guess that if you think that you don't have control then you don't have it.

So if I think I do not have control, then I really do not have it. Then doesn't that negate everything else you've said where you've relied on choice?

Sure, but perspective and expectations are within your control.

If you change your expectations, then life stops sucking. It's your choice.

There is some truth in that but I don't think that "your wiring" can't be "rewired". IOW, I'm not a fatalist.

It's not up to me decide what other people ought to think. If he wants to think in some particular way, that's his choice.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:03 pm

Serendipper wrote:
phyllo wrote:I guess that if you think that you don't have control then you don't have it.

So if I think I do not have control, then I really do not have it. Then doesn't that negate everything else you've said where you've relied on choice?

Sure, but perspective and expectations are within your control.

If you change your expectations, then life stops sucking. It's your choice.

There is some truth in that but I don't think that "your wiring" can't be "rewired". IOW, I'm not a fatalist.

It's not up to me decide what other people ought to think. If he wants to think in some particular way, that's his choice.
Your question "How do you have control and I don't?" is the statement "I (Serendipper) don't have control". You want me to spend my time trying to convince you that you do have control. I sent hundreds of posts trying to do that or something similar with Iambig (trying to get him out of his dilemma). In the end, he always said that he can't change.

I'm just skipping the middle part where I'm wasting my time. Okay, you don't have control. Done.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:25 am

phyllo wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
phyllo wrote:I guess that if you think that you don't have control then you don't have it.

So if I think I do not have control, then I really do not have it. Then doesn't that negate everything else you've said where you've relied on choice?

Sure, but perspective and expectations are within your control.

If you change your expectations, then life stops sucking. It's your choice.

There is some truth in that but I don't think that "your wiring" can't be "rewired". IOW, I'm not a fatalist.

It's not up to me decide what other people ought to think. If he wants to think in some particular way, that's his choice.
Your question "How do you have control and I don't?" is the statement "I (Serendipper) don't have control". You want me to spend my time trying to convince you that you do have control. I sent hundreds of posts trying to do that or something similar with Iambig (trying to get him out of his dilemma). In the end, he always said that he can't change.

I'm just skipping the middle part where I'm wasting my time. Okay, you don't have control. Done.

Seems to me that you don't have much control over yourself. Because it went wrong with biggie, now you have no choice. That's kinda where I am as well; why bother if I can't win? I had no choice but to play before because I was young, ambitious, optimistic, curious, adventurous (like you), and now I have no choice but to not play because I'm worn out (like you). So I'm playing chess with Garry Kasparov... sure, I'm free to move wherever I want, but it can only end one way and the only winning move is not to play (like you're doing).

I wasn't always so pessimistic, but maybe I got too smart (ignorance is bliss they say). As soon as I consciously decide to do something, evolution immediately begins working against me. As soon as I decide to play white, the universe takes the opposing black position. Looks like dad was right... winning is a fluke, a miracle of luck or necessary aberration just to put losing back into context and give it significance.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:51 am

Seems to me that you don't have much control over yourself. Because it went wrong with biggie, now you have no choice. That's kinda where I am as well; why bother if I can't win? I had no choice but to play before because I was young, ambitious, optimistic, curious, adventurous (like you), and now I have no choice but to not play because I'm worn out (like you). So I'm playing chess with Garry Kasparov... sure, I'm free to move wherever I want, but it can only end one way and the only winning move is not to play (like you're doing).

I wasn't always so pessimistic, but maybe I got too smart (ignorance is bliss they say). As soon as I consciously decide to do something, evolution immediately begins working against me. As soon as I decide to play white, the universe takes the opposing black position. Looks like dad was right... winning is a fluke, a miracle of luck or necessary aberration just to put losing back into context and give it significance.
Think whatever you want about it.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:08 am

phyllo wrote:
Seems to me that you don't have much control over yourself. Because it went wrong with biggie, now you have no choice. That's kinda where I am as well; why bother if I can't win? I had no choice but to play before because I was young, ambitious, optimistic, curious, adventurous (like you), and now I have no choice but to not play because I'm worn out (like you). So I'm playing chess with Garry Kasparov... sure, I'm free to move wherever I want, but it can only end one way and the only winning move is not to play (like you're doing).

I wasn't always so pessimistic, but maybe I got too smart (ignorance is bliss they say). As soon as I consciously decide to do something, evolution immediately begins working against me. As soon as I decide to play white, the universe takes the opposing black position. Looks like dad was right... winning is a fluke, a miracle of luck or necessary aberration just to put losing back into context and give it significance.
Think whatever you want about it.

Do I have a choice? :confusion-shrug:
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:34 am

Do I have a choice? :confusion-shrug:
Yes
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:29 am

Fanman wrote:Pris,

How ALL humans will know the certainty of mortality if not for their DNA therein that automatically enable them the faculty of self-awareness [after 18 months ++]?
ALL humans are programmed within their DNA to be self-aware whether they like it or not, want it or not.
The existential angst will manifest in the later years, i.e. late teens.
Nature has created this existential dilemma but nature has also provide an easy solution [optimal and temporary], i.e. religions. The most effective and immediate solution to deal with the existential angst [anxieties] is religion. This is why >90% of humans are religious naturally.


I'm not convinced. These premises aren't as simple and straight-forward as you're attempting to reduce them to. Hence, I don't believe that it is correct to condense the complex relationship between DNA and how it influences our psychology into a few lines. So I'm not going to draw any definite conclusions.
Note my premise is;

DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to suffer an existential crisis, thus angst.
I have given a framework of elements to support the above of which there is no room for doubt.
I agree the question of the mechanics of a more detailed explanation is not given [yet] and a more details answer/explanation down to the specific neurons will be answered in the future via the HCP.

That is the problem with your thinking, you don't imbue into your thinking with the drive for deeper exploration. You have a very hardcore resistant to certain useful knowledge and are always scratching the obvious on the surface ONLY.

You're entitled to your views, but I disagree with your assessment.[/quote]That is a fact from your responses here as evidence. That will be my conclusion until proven otherwise.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:49 am

Ierrellus wrote:I suspect that the fact of evident neuroplasticity would shed doubt on attempts to localize dispositions as arising from specific locations in the brain topography. The brain appears to be more like a chameleon than an earthly geography. HCP is highly speculative.
HCP merely provide a main model of how the brain neurons are connected in general. Like anything else there are obvious exceptions from the standard model.

Note synaethesia where the supposedly sense faculty are to be correctly connected to the right neurons 99% of the time. But due to neuroplasticity [negative in this case] there are cases where the senses cross-wired where a person can 'taste' music, etc.
Neuroplasticity happens when certain standard connections are damaged [in stroke and other brain defects] thus the brain will find new pathways.
These are the exceptions which will be highlighted along with the main findings of the HCP.
Neuroplasticity could be exploited with the knowledge from the HCP to strengthen modulation of the anxiety impulses.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:58 am

phyllo wrote:What will be the side-effect of "moderating" anxiety cells?
Note since anxiety cells are inherent, they will not be eliminated. Thus they can only be inhibited and modulated.
I don't expect any side effects from the modulation of anxiety cells when done properly within the knowledge we have.

The only possible side effects are when people do more than the necessary recommended exercises and procedures. This can be prevented via self-development programs of modulating over-enthusiasm and other impulse controls.

With advances in the HCP in the future, controls and monitoring can be implemented to ensure the vulnerable percentile [low %] do not deviate from the standard procedures.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:02 am

Ierrellus wrote:He has not shown any scientific study that reveals 'modulation" of anxiety cells. So they have been located in rat brains. So what. Too much information has been left out in P's account, pertinent information. Or it has been relegated to some distant future wherein the current research might prove to be true.
Note as I had stated this OP is highly speculative based on studies from mice.

What I have done is I have provided references of evidences that support its possibility in the future, e.g.

    1. A thesis argument to its possibility.
    2. The potential of the HCP
    3. The current ongoing practices of modulating anxieties, Buddhism, psychology, neurosciences, etc.
    4. Others
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Fanman » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:21 am

Pris,

Note my premise is;

DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to suffer an existential crisis, thus angst.
I have given a framework of elements to support the above of which there is no room for doubt.
I agree the question of the mechanics of a more detailed explanation is not given [yet] and a more details answer/explanation down to the specific neurons will be answered in the future via the HCP.


No room for doubt? You have "QED" issues, QED :) .

That is a fact from your responses here as evidence. That will be my conclusion until proven otherwise.


#-o ... Okay, but you should understand that such criticisms from you, due to the general rejections of your speculative claims, are conversely compliments, because it means that I haven't followed you into what I perceive as a rabbit hole.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:57 pm

HCP is the new phrenology; and phrenology has been largely disproved.
I would ask if there is any other place in the brain other than in the amygdala where anxiety can be expressed?
Anxiety in the brain generally indicates something is physically wrong, It does not indicate some free floating disposition that affects everyone negatively. It is more like an impetus to adapt and to survive, which is the brain's job of tending to homeostasis. Anxiety is a prod for survival behavior. There are some who do "go gently into that good night" without experiencing the horror of death-imposed religious anxiety. Fear of death and of what may become of the I after death is a type of cowardice.
"Thou art that" is a Sanskrit saying. After death you will become an intimate part of matter in its dance with energy. In fact you already are that now in life.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:08 pm

I don't expect any side effects from the modulation of anxiety cells when done properly within the knowledge we have.
That's the magical future where everything works exactly as you conceive it in your head, everything is "done properly" and there are never any problems. :lol:

One can't argue with a fantasy.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Serendipper » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote: "Thou art that" is a Sanskrit saying. After death you will become an intimate part of matter in its dance with energy. In fact you already are that now in life.

Tat Tvam Asi
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:07 am

Fanman wrote:Pris,

Note my premise is;

DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to suffer an existential crisis, thus angst.
I have given a framework of elements to support the above of which there is no room for doubt.
I agree the question of the mechanics of a more detailed explanation is not given [yet] and a more details answer/explanation down to the specific neurons will be answered in the future via the HCP.


No room for doubt? You have "QED" issues, QED :) .
If I say,
DNA wise, ALL humans [normal] have two legs and two hands, where is the room for doubt here.
The above is the same for the elements of the DNA driven existential crisis I referred to.

That is a fact from your responses here as evidence. That will be my conclusion until proven otherwise.


#-o ... Okay, but you should understand that such criticisms from you, due to the general rejections of your speculative claims, are conversely compliments, because it means that I haven't followed you into what I perceive as a rabbit hole.
That is your discretion.

Whatever 'talks' is ultimately valid arguments.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 am

Ierrellus wrote:HCP is the new phrenology; and phrenology has been largely disproved.
Wow!! The above is one of the worst rhetoric against HCP which is genuine Science. Don't insult your own intelligence.

If you do a search re Human Connectome Project - Scholarly Articles, you get 14,400 results.

Note the Human Connectome Project is done along the same approach as the Human Genome Project which is already completed.

I would ask if there is any other place in the brain other than in the amygdala where anxiety can be expressed?
Other than chemicals, note the parts of the brain [bolded] that contribute to anxiety.

The Neurobiology of Anxiety Disorders: Brain Imaging, Genetics, and Psychoneuroendocrinology

Mood and anxiety disorders are characterized by a variety of neuroendocrine, neurotransmitter, and neuroanatomical disruptions.
Identifying the most functionally relevant differences is complicated by the high degree of interconnectivity between neurotransmitter- and neuropeptide-containing circuits in limbic, brain stem, and higher cortical brain areas.
Furthermore, a primary alteration in brain structure or function or in neurotransmitter signaling may result from environmental experiences and underlying genetic predisposition; such alterations can increase the risk for psychopathology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3684250/



Anxiety in the brain generally indicates something is physically wrong, It does not indicate some free floating disposition that affects everyone negatively. It is more like an impetus to adapt and to survive, which is the brain's job of tending to homeostasis. Anxiety is a prod for survival behavior. There are some who do "go gently into that good night" without experiencing the horror of death-imposed religious anxiety. Fear of death and of what may become of the I after death is a type of cowardice.
You got it wrong.

Anxiety is related to the physical and mental but ultimately anxiety is triggered consciously or subconsciously if there is a threat of death, premature and otherwise, i.e. to ensure survival.

Fear of death and of what may become of the I after death is a type of cowardice.
Note I have stated before, the fear of death is generally suppressed in normal people to ensure people are not paralyzed by such fears so they can go about in their daily life.

But the suppression is not 100% and it caused seepage within the subconscious mind that manifest the death anxiety which compel the majority into religions. The fact is >90% of 'normal' humans are religious.
Many of these religions are driven by the fear of what may become of the I after physical death - you call them cowards?? They are 'normal' people.

"Thou art that" is a Sanskrit saying. After death you will become an intimate part of matter in its dance with energy. In fact you already are that now in life.

True whatever is the physical body [molecules, atoms, etc] and waves generated will dissipate and spread all over the Universe.
But note there are loads of counter views to the above, i.e. there is no real self 'the you or I' to start with that become part of the universe.
The idea of an absolute "I" or "I AM" [Descartes' sum] is an illusion and an impossibility.

The present thinking of the idea of "I" or "I AM" and the insistence it survives somewhat after physical death in the unknown future is purely psychological.
Note there is a serious conflation here when you in your present state is fearing what will happen in the future which is unknown and speculated without grounds.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:46 am

phyllo wrote:
I don't expect any side effects from the modulation of anxiety cells when done properly within the knowledge we have.
That's the magical future where everything works exactly as you conceive it in your head, everything is "done properly" and there are never any problems. :lol:

One can't argue with a fantasy.
Side effects are still possible but they will be closely monitored.
I point you have not taken into account is the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology in the various advance fields plus the increasing average intelligence and wisdom of humans.
If you keep up to date with the above, you will have the optimism like I have. It is only unlikely if you are a hardcore pessimist like Iambigous.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:19 pm

Side effects are still possible but they will be closely monitored.
I point you have not taken into account is the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology in the various advance fields plus the increasing average intelligence and wisdom of humans.
If you keep up to date with the above, you will have the optimism like I have. It is only unlikely if you are a hardcore pessimist like Iambigous.
It's not a question of pessimism/optimism or trends.

You are simply avoiding counterarguments and problems with your thesis by shifting to some undefined point in the future when everything is "resolved". And you assume that the resolution will support your current position. Of course, you can never be shown to be wrong because the future is unknown and inaccessible. If someone disagrees, then you label him a pessimist.

That's not a philosophy discussion.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:55 pm

It's a decent sci fi story, complete with the this is how it could be imagination.
The HCP articles are not impressive and admit of other possibilities than noted connections. Your argument is ad populum.
Last edited by Ierrellus on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:55 pm

duplicate
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:57 am

phyllo wrote:
Side effects are still possible but they will be closely monitored.
I point you have not taken into account is the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology in the various advance fields plus the increasing average intelligence and wisdom of humans.
If you keep up to date with the above, you will have the optimism like I have. It is only unlikely if you are a hardcore pessimist like Iambigous.
It's not a question of pessimism/optimism or trends.

You are simply avoiding counterarguments and problems with your thesis by shifting to some undefined point in the future when everything is "resolved". And you assume that the resolution will support your current position. Of course, you can never be shown to be wrong because the future is unknown and inaccessible. If someone disagrees, then you label him a pessimist.

That's not a philosophy discussion.
Note philosophy discussions is most critical for the future, i.e. the next second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year, years, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 75 years, 100 years. The above 'about the future' has to be based on past/current knowledge and trends of what had really happened.

Note I have not shifted to some undefined point in the future, but I have narrowed the possible realization to within 50-100 years and it could be earlier.

I have always been relying on the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology in many fields of new knowledge.
Note the advances in the neurosciences, genomics, etc. in the last 20 years that has enabled new frontiers in other fields of knowledge to be expanded, e.g. medical, psychology, psychiatry, etc.
In terms of technological trend, note Moore's Law in IT - do you think this trend of "doubling" [if not 2x, then 1.75x] will stop suddenly in the future?

1. One area you can counter my argument is to show the trends I am forecasting are not feasible at all, e.g. the Human Connectome Project. Show me this HCP project and brain mapping of the human brain is impossible?
2. Show me the exponential expansion of knowledge will stop soon?
Show me even if 2 if real, it is impossible to link anxiety cells to religions and nothing can be done about it.

On the other hand, I have proven the 'idea of God' was a fake and illusory [for psychological reasons] from the start till the present, and God exists will be an impossibility in the future and eternally.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:11 am

Ierrellus wrote:It's a decent sci fi story, complete with the this is how it could be imagination.
The HCP articles are not impressive and admit of other possibilities than noted connections. Your argument is ad populum.

Where did you read about the HCP articles?
Obviously there will be limitations and barriers within the HCP but mapping of the brain is a long term and ongoing project.

I suggest you do more research on the HCP.
https://www.humanconnectome.org/study/h ... p-data.php


So this is it, or is there more?
Not by a long shot. Commentary on the project suggests both the technology and methodology, even if it is the most advanced in existence, had limitations that may have biased interpretation of the brain’s architecture. That said, the connectome is a moving target — the more we learn, the more there is to learn.

“The holy grail is to study connectomes as they change over time,” Toga said. Since some biomarkers of disease show themselves before deterioration begins, identifying the changes that occur before the onset of something like Alzheimer’s could lead to earlier therapy, and potentially stop or slow the disease’s progress, he explained.

Over time, technology will evolve, research will continue, and our understanding of the brain will become more nuanced, if never entirely complete.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/10-faq-abou ... ect-362650
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:22 am

On the other hand, I have proven the 'idea of God' was a fake and illusory [for psychological reasons] from the start till the present, and God exists will be an impossibility in the future and eternally.
You have proven no such thing.
1. One area you can counter my argument is to show the trends I am forecasting are not feasible at all, e.g. the Human Connectome Project. Show me this HCP project and brain mapping of the human brain is impossible?
2. Show me the exponential expansion of knowledge will stop soon?
Show me even if 2 if real, it is impossible to link anxiety cells to religions and nothing can be done about it.
The important question is not "can it be done?" , it's "ought it be done?".

If you want to prove something useful, then prove that the "modulated" non-religious that you envision are actually better human beings than the religious of today. Prove that the technology won't be abused.

We have drugs and therapies now. Ought they be used to "treat" religious beliefs? Ought they be used to "treat" atheistic beliefs? Political beliefs? What other "diseases"?

Who decides who and what ought to be "treated"?
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:12 am

phyllo wrote:
On the other hand, I have proven the 'idea of God' was a fake and illusory [for psychological reasons] from the start till the present, and God exists will be an impossibility in the future and eternally.
You have proven no such thing.
1. One area you can counter my argument is to show the trends I am forecasting are not feasible at all, e.g. the Human Connectome Project. Show me this HCP project and brain mapping of the human brain is impossible?
2. Show me the exponential expansion of knowledge will stop soon?
Show me even if 2 if real, it is impossible to link anxiety cells to religions and nothing can be done about it.
The important question is not "can it be done?" , it's "ought it be done?".

If you want to prove something useful, then prove that the "modulated" non-religious that you envision are actually better human beings than the religious of today. Prove that the technology won't be abused.

We have drugs and therapies now. Ought they be used to "treat" religious beliefs? Ought they be used to "treat" atheistic beliefs? Political beliefs? What other "diseases"?

Who decides who and what ought to be "treated"?
Ok,noted 'ought'.

I have argued elsewhere, in addition to the expansion of knowledge and intelligence [IQ], there must be a quantum leap in the moral competence of the average human being.
All humans are born with a faculty of morality which is evolving and has evolved very slowly throughout the history of mankind. Note my argument re the legal abolishment of Chattel Slavery in contrast to say 100 years ago.

Through the mapping of the brain, it will also facilitate the increase and expedite the moral quotient of the average person.
If the current average moral quotient [MQ] is say X, then by the time we work on religiosity and theism, the MQ must be at least 2X or more. Thus if the current average MQ is 100 then it must be 200 or more by 50 years time.
By then the average IQ should be increased, so is the wisdom quotient, the spiritual quotient and other relevant measurements has to increase.
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Re: Researchers Discover 'Anxiety Cells' In The Brain

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:30 pm

Completely beside the point.
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