Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

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Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:24 am

Re my argument 'God is an Impossibility,'

    PI. Absolute perfection is an impossibility
    P2. God imperatively must be absolutely perfect
    C.. Therefore God is an impossibility.

As explained my P2 is based on the point that ultimately all claims of God is reducible to an absolutely perfect when theists are made aware their God is inferior to another.
For example the Quran claims Allah is an absolutely perfect God than which there is no greater. All other gods are slaves of Allah.

Will Christians accept their God is a slave of Allah?
I don't believe Christians will accept their God is inferior to any God.

It is the same for other theists who will not accept their God as inferior to any other God from another religion.

Some theists like those in Hinduism believe is lesser Gods like monkey god [Hanuman] or elephant God [Ganesha] and many other lesser limited gods, but Hinduism has an overriding absolutely perfect Being, i.e. Brahman.

There are many primitives and tribal people who believe in their own version of God which is often limited. But when a comparison is made against the limited God with say an absolutely perfect being, they will often relent and convert to the absolutely perfect God of either Christianity or Islam or accept some other more powerful God and eventually to an absolutely perfect God.

My argument 'God is an Impossibility' will cover the majority 90% of theists who must believe in an absolutely perfect God.
But Even there are theists [not many] who insist on a lesser God [be vulnerable to be ridiculed by others], e.g. a bearded man in the sky which is empirically possible [albeit very slim], thus my argument do not apply, then the question is, produce the evidence of a bearded man in the sky - which most likely impossible.

Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:15 am

Prism wrote:
the Quran claims Allah is an absolutely perfect God

All other gods are slaves of Allah

Will Christians accept their God is a slave of Allah

I dont believe Christians will accept their God is inferior to any God

The Abrahamic God of Christianity and Islam and Judaism is the same

God and Allah and Yahweh are three different names for the one God

The fact that there are three separate religions and divisions both within them and between them does not change this
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:49 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:Re my argument 'God is an Impossibility,'

    PI. Absolute perfection is an impossibility

False.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:24 pm


What natural phenomenon exists that is absolutely perfect [ God is not an acceptable answer ]
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:26 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
What natural phenomenon exists that is absolutely perfect [ God is not an acceptable answer ]

1) The speed of light.
2) Gravitation.
3) Momentum.

Need I go on?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:54 pm


In what sense are any of them absolutely perfect and how you are defining absolute perfection
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:57 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
In what sense are any of them absolutely perfect and how you are defining absolute perfection

In the same sense and definition as the OP!
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm

I am none the wiser but as this thread is about God and not phenomena I will leave it there
However I do not think the notion of absolute perfection can be applied to anything natural
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:12 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:I am none the wiser but as this thread is about God and not phenomena I will leave it there
However I do not think the notion of absolute perfection can be applied to anything natural

A debatable premise does not do for a proof.

But I'm kind of curious about in what sense the speed of light is NOT absolutely prefect. Has any experiment ever been performed that found the actual speed of light to be wrong?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:30 pm

Perfection requires a comparison between something and a standard.

If something is unique, then it's possible to say that there is nothing with which it can be compared. Therefore every unique thing can be considered perfect.

Of course, it's possible to set up an ideal which the unique thing should be. But where does that "should" come from? Ought the thing really be some other way than it actually is?

Everything in the universe can be considered unique and perfect.

If something is not unique, then it satisfies some definition. Any cat which meets the dictionary definition of "cat" can be considered perfect. The world is full of perfect cats and trees and flies ...

The something may also be suitable for fulfilling a function or requirement. For example, a glass may be considered perfect for taking a drink of water - it's flawless in doing so.

So again, this is a discussion about what a word means. It means slightly different stuff to different people and in different contexts.

It depends on how the comparison is done.
Last edited by phyllo on Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:59 pm

James wrote:
I am kind of curious about in what sense the speed of light is NOT absolutely perfect now

You still have not explained what is so perfect about it in your opinion. Does the notion of perfection apply
to every phenomena or just the three you mentioned. Can you give any examples of imperfect phenomena
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:38 pm

blinky.jpg
blinky.jpg (11.22 KiB) Viewed 926 times

Perfect, imperfect, mutant, superfish, something else? All are true?
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:22 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
James wrote:
I am kind of curious about in what sense the speed of light is NOT absolutely perfect now

You still have not explained what is so perfect about it in your opinion. Does the notion of perfection apply
to every phenomena or just the three you mentioned. Can you give any examples of imperfect phenomena

I am not the one trying to claim that absolutely perfect is impossible.

Do we have any scientific, "empirically-rational reality" Framework and System data that shows that light is propagating at the wrong speed?
Last edited by James S Saint on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:35 pm

James wrote:
I am not the one trying to claim that absolutely perfect is impossible

You are the one claiming that certain phenomena are perfect without explaining why
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:37 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
James wrote:
I am not the one trying to claim that absolutely perfect is impossible

You are the one claiming that certain phenomena are perfect without explaining why

This isn't my topic. That was a side rail question. We don't really care about natural phenomena.

Again;
Do we have any scientific, "empirically-rational reality" Framework and System data that shows that light is propagating at the wrong speed?

We have absolutely no evidence that its speed is not absolutely perfect.
So we cannot claim that absolute perfection cannot happen.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:51 pm

The speed of light in vacuum may be absolute but that does not mean that it is perfect too
The notion of perfection you are assigning to it is purely arbitrary and not really necessary
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:The speed of light in vacuum may be absolute but that does not mean that it is perfect too
The notion of perfection you are assigning to it is purely arbitrary and not really necessary

I am not assigning anything. Prism is. Whatever Prism is using for his reference for perfect, so am I.

So far,
James S Saint wrote:We have absolutely no evidence that the speed of light is not absolutely perfect.
So we cannot claim that absolute perfection cannot happen.


P1 in Prism's effort to prove that God is impossible is not valid.
The proof is invalid.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby iambiguous » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Perfection requires a comparison between something and a standard.

If something is unique, then it's possible to say that there is nothing with which it can be compared. Therefore every unique thing can be considered perfect.


If something does in fact exist in a wholly determined universe, then anything that does in fact exist could not have existed in any other way. And that would include any exchanges we have here about perfection.

Or take living organisms that interact entirely in sync [instinctively] with the biological imperatives built into the evolution of life on earth. The lion may well not bring down the wildebeest but in what sense can we say it behaved imperfectly?

But once we shift gears from mindless matter to matter able to acquire some level of autonomy, perfection would seem to revolve around what we think that means in any particular context.

If I go bowling and, in a single game, roll 12 strikes in a row that is clearly perfection. If I am Don Larsen pitching in the World Series and no one on the opposing team gets on base in the nine inning game, I have pitched a "perfect game".

Here you simply can't perform better than perfection.

But, most crucially, it is able to be calculated objectively because it revolves around that which we all agree is perfection.

But how on earth would we even begin to establish that which constitutes perfection in God?

What are we all required to accept as the "rules" here? How do we calculate it other than by clumping together a collection of more or less academic premises and insisting perfection necessarily revolves around everyone accepting them?

My thinking -- "proof" -- about God and perfection...compared to yours?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Biguous? Do you have any evidence that the speed of light is not absolutely perfect, flawed in some way?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 pm

It would be better to say that the speed of light in vacuum is absolutely consistent rather than absolutely
perfect because consistency can quite easily be measured whereas perfection can not be measured at all
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:01 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:It would be better to say that the speed of light in vacuum is absolutely consistent rather than absolutely
perfect because consistency can quite easily be measured whereas perfection can not be measured at all

That's kind of silly. If you can't measure perfection, then you can never say that anything is or is not perfect.

Are two photons of light traveling in the exact same vacuum traveling perfectly the same speed?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby surreptitious75 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:06 am

James wrote:
Are two photons of light traveling in the exact same vacuum traveling perfectly at the same speed

Everyone knows the speed of light in vacuum is absolute so there is no need to reference it as perfect too
Perfect is not actually a scientific term and I have never seen anyone describe c as perfect other than you

As this is going nowhere we shall have to agree to disagree and leave it at that as it is pointless to carry on
This thread has got nothing to do with the speed of light so we really should get back on to the actual topic
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:18 am

Why use the word "perfect" for anything at all?

What purpose does the word have?

Even when talking about God, it seems useless.
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Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:24 am

phyllo wrote:Why use the word "perfect" for anything at all?

What purpose does the word have?

Even when talking about God, it seems useless.

It is, but someone thought he could make a proof out of it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will Theists Accept A God That is Inferior to Another's?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:36 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
Prism wrote:
the Quran claims Allah is an absolutely perfect God

All other gods are slaves of Allah

Will Christians accept their God is a slave of Allah

I dont believe Christians will accept their God is inferior to any God

The Abrahamic God of Christianity and Islam and Judaism is the same

God and Allah and Yahweh are three different names for the one God

The fact that there are three separate religions and divisions both within them and between them does not change this
Actually the Quran [core of Islam] claims Allah is the absolutely perfect being.
Islam claimed there is only one God, i.e. Allah who send messages through various prophets and messengers but all of God's messages were corrupted and Islam is the only final true words of God.

The Quran [Allah' word] asserted Allah is not the same as the Christian God which give birth to a son. In this sense Allah is more superior to Jesus's Father [Christian's God].

Allah in the Quran do agree the God portrayed in Judaism-as-it-is-Now is a corrupted God from the original God that send the original message to Abraham, Moses and others.

So from Islam's perspective, The Abrahamic God of Christianity and Islam and Judaism are NOT the same.

I believe most Christians will not agree Allah as idealized in the Quran is not the same as Jesus's Father.

In addition, each Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in general will claim the non-Abrahamic Gods are inferior to their respective Abrahamic God.

With all the differences and claims, each religion will try to ensure their God's utmost integrity and ultimately reason will lead them to an ontological God, i.e. an absolutely perfect Being.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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