Forever

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Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:10 am

Being brought up in an atheist environment and incredibly believing in the Scriptures since I was a small child, my mind recently has wrestled with the question "what if I don't want to live forever" is there acceptance for this according to God's law ? Is not one life time enough for a person to bear? To live forever seems more a punishment than a reward.

The thought of one member of a family believing and the remainder do not equates to separation forever if you believe what the Scriptures teach. Where is the happiness in this?

Better to believe all ceases 'forever' upon death, all are fairly dealt the same cards, comforting to know we are all headed for the same fate. The dead know nothing, forever.
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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:34 am

Death has a very hard time being accepted within society but the real problem is the irrational fear that it creates
Because nobody who is dead has ever worried for a single second about it why do the living worry about it so much
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:06 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
Death has a very hard time being accepted within society but the real problem is the irrational fear that it creates


Where are you on this surreptitious75?
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Re: Forever

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:34 am

All souls may be eternal without choice.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:53 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
Where are you on this surreptitious75

Being afraid of something you cannot experience is completely irrational so letting go of that fear is the thing to do
I stopped being afraid of death last year and now have no fear of it so I am totally accepting of it as a consequence
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:12 am

Wendy wrote:

All souls may be eternal without choice.


Do you embrace the theory of 'life everlasting'?

In the book, "The Wisdom of Carl Jung," which is a collection of quotes by Jung compiled and edited by Edward Hoffman, PhD (Citadel Press 2003), there is only one reference to reincarnation attributed to Jung:

"Nobody knows whether there is reincarnation, and equally one does not know that there is none. Buddha himself was convinced of reincarnation, but he himself on being asked twice by his disciples about it, left it quite open whether there is continuity of personality or not. Certainly we do not know where we come from, nor where we are going, or why we are here at the present time. I think it is right to believe that having done the best we could do here, we are also best prepared for things to come."
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:15 am

S75 wrote:
I stopped being afraid of death last year and now have no fear of it so I am totally accepting of it as a consequence


Perhaps when actually faced with death and you do not die, takes the mystery away and with it the fear.
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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:34 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
I stopped being afraid of death last year and now have no fear of it so I am totally accepting of it as a consequence

Perhaps when actually faced with death and you do not die takes the mystery away and with it the fear

Yes very possible but you do not have to face it to overcome your fear of it you can rationalise it as I did
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:31 am

.....perhaps you believe in life after death, if so, in your case, death is not a permanent state, a finality?
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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:55 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
perhaps you believe in life after death if so in your case death is not a permanent state a finality

I do not do belief of any kind and definitely do not believe in life after death
And so when I die I expect to stay dead forever because that is just how it is
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Re: Forever

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:11 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Wendy wrote:

All souls may be eternal without choice.


Do you embrace the theory of 'life everlasting'?

In the book, "The Wisdom of Carl Jung," which is a collection of quotes by Jung compiled and edited by Edward Hoffman, PhD (Citadel Press 2003), there is only one reference to reincarnation attributed to Jung:

"Nobody knows whether there is reincarnation, and equally one does not know that there is none. Buddha himself was convinced of reincarnation, but he himself on being asked twice by his disciples about it, left it quite open whether there is continuity of personality or not. Certainly we do not know where we come from, nor where we are going, or why we are here at the present time. I think it is right to believe that having done the best we could do here, we are also best prepared for things to come."


Yes, "things to come" as in more things or things in a loop. Unfortunately, the evidence found in astral projections such as NDEs points to the conscious soul continuing its functioning without its corporeal body, perhaps transitioning back into a different corporeal form again at some point or reliving the same life multiple times (both are possibilities which would explain uncanny feelings of familiarity during ones lifetime...deja vus). I too feel that immortality is too much "living" to bear especially if the other planes of existence offer less possibilities towards differing experiences than the Earth plane.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:10 am

Have you ever entertained that perhaps death is simply a finality.

I wonder. Without the promise of life everlasting how many people would embrace Christianity, how many Muslims would believe without the promise of this present life being only a preparation for the next realm of existence, both Hinduism and Buddhism strongly believe in the rebirth and reincarnation of souls, none teach that death is final.

What happens after death is an ever deepening descent into illusion and obscuration, people grasping with their last intellectual breath, not an end but a continuation.
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Re: Forever

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:29 pm

A Shieldmaiden

Being brought up in an atheist environment and incredibly believing in the Scriptures since I was a small child,


How did you manage to come to believe in the scriptures being that you grew up in an atheistic environment?


my mind recently has wrestled with the question "what if I don't want to live forever" is there acceptance for this according to God's law ?


According to YOUR interpretation of the scriptures, does your God give you the freedom/free will to think for yourself and to desire what you want? If so, I do not see you having a problem there as long as you are grateful for the life you have. Even there, a God of compassion and mercy would have understanding of the human psyche.

According to the scriptures, the Old Testament God also had mercy and compassion. Therefore, wouldn't your God understand your desire to not want to live forever?
At any rate, this is something which is out of our hand - either way.
There is either life after death or there is not. If there is not, what is there to worry about. After that final breath, there will be no experience whatsoever. There is no way to prove so - either way. All that can be said about it is based on belief, not reality.

Is not one life time enough for a person to bear? To live forever seems more a punishment than a reward.


True, it would be up to the individual's life experience to see and to feel that. I can perfectly understand an individual's desire in either direction.
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:34 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:
How did you manage to come to believe in the scriptures being that you grew up in an atheistic environment?


I have no answer for that, only to recognise that it was something within me beyond my own conscious decision or understanding. I have had exposure through friends to Buddhism, the Koran, Hinduism none of which have had any impact or conviction for me.
But we have the freedom to choose what we would want.


There are arguments for and against what you have said regarding freedom to choose. In my case, I can only act with freedom to choose if I was the original source for my actions and being in the beginning so young I think this was way too sophisticated for a small child to totally comprehend. One could say if determinism is true, then everything I did as a small child was ultimately caused by circumstances out of my control and if this was so then I was not the instigator of my actions, therefore I did not or do not have free will in this instance.

According to the scriptures, the Old Testament God also had mercy and compassion. Therefore, wouldn't your God understand your desire to not want to live forever?


The problem of free will and sin gives rise to the question why does God not will that all come to believe, when His having such a will is sufficient for everyone's salvation?
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Re: Forever

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:58 am

surreptitious75 wrote:Death has a very hard time being accepted within society but the real problem is the irrational fear that it creates
Because nobody who is dead has ever worried for a single second about it why do the living worry about it so much



Because they fear regretting not living the life that they felt they should have lived in one way or another. Maybe they wanted to see more or do more, maybe they wanted different relationships, maybe they felt like they were a bad person and wanted to be good, maybe they felt like they were too good and wanted to feel what it was like to be bad a little. At the end of the day, everything dies and nothing changes that. I don't think that life is so special that it magically carries on ones all the neurons stop firing. But you're right. Having a desire that goes against the inevitable can only cause dissonance. Might as well accept death, taxes, and the rest of the things that no one can avoid and make the most of it while you can get away with it.
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Re: Forever

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:42 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:The thought of one member of a family believing and the remainder do not equates to separation forever if you believe what the Scriptures teach. Where is the happiness in this?

That is the best theological argument against Heaven Ive ever seen.
A very honourable question.

As a resolution, you may be interested in the Odinic concept "Orlog".
We hold that we are connected at least 8 generations back to our ancestors spirits, and that these spirits fight in us for predominance.

There is no "everlasting peace" but there is an extended struggle.
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Re: Forever

Postby Dan~ » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:51 pm

"Nobody knows whether there is reincarnation"

This is a sweeping statement. Too seeping.

Long ago i read about children that remembered their passed lives and then the study went on to check that the passed lives were actual.
They would, for example, remember names of their passed parents, brothers and sisters.
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Re: Forever jars

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:56 am

Dan~ wrote:
"Nobody knows whether there is reincarnation"

This is a sweeping statement. Too seeping.

Long ago i read about children that remembered their passed lives and then the study went on to check that the passed lives were actual.
They would, for example, remember names of their passed parents, brothers and sisters.

I tend to lean to agreement.
Also it is more logical to me if valuing-integrity, which is (come on now!) the soul (love-integrity) which upholds the "narrative" (morals, purpose, life-"path", meaning) which in my ontology is the precursor to matter, which is energy, is also maintained as in conservation of integrity.

Both integrity and energy are being conserved, but on different shelves.
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Re: Forever

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:58 am

integrity is conserved by the energy expended on it ("men must fight!" - me to a lesbian) and energy is conserved around the axis of integrity.
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Re: Forever

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:03 am

I think "heaven" and "hell" are for people who are new to the sentiment of self-reverence, and need to be made aware of the existence of standards, which is then simplified in "evil" and "good". A distinction which activates moral awareness in merely degenerated apes (normal humans) so as to set them possibly on the path of a better set of distinct qualities, further along the road to "superman", i.e. animal: man. The man who has become fully entrusted to his own mind, so as to become an animal species and roam on earth and be happy.
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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:52 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
Death has a very hard time being accepted within society but the real problem is the irrational fear that it creates
Because nobody who is dead has ever worried for a single second about it why do the living worry about it so much

Because they fear regretting not living the life that they felt they should have lived in one way or another

Even if there was another chance at life there would still be regret because mistakes would still be made
They would not be the same mistakes that had already been made just different ones but still mistakes
No matter how many lives a human being lived they would never get it perfect so best just to have one
I am not sure I would want to live my life again even if it were possible and I think I would prefer death
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:03 am

Fixed, everybody believes something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a kind of belief. A person is not free if he rejects Christianity, because he still maintains the concept of faith which you have demonstrated in your response above by transferring your faith to something or someone else. Read the comments on Know Thyself Forum regarding Christianity and their proud assertions of being Pagan, which only demonstrates a transference of faith, no different really to the Christian fervently proclaiming his beliefs. There is nowhere someone can stand where he or she has no beliefs, otherwise we would all be robots. The dilemma here is what and why we choose to embrace and believe, whether it be paganism, christianity, astrology, etc or none of these.
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Re: Forever

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:49 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Fixed, everybody believes something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a kind of belief. A person is not free if he rejects Christianity, because he still maintains the concept of faith which you have demonstrated in your response above by transferring your faith to something or someone else. Read the comments on Know Thyself Forum regarding Christianity and their proud assertions of being Pagan, which only demonstrates a transference of faith, no different really to the Christian fervently proclaiming his beliefs. There is nowhere someone can stand where he or she has no beliefs, otherwise we would all be robots. The dilemma here is what and why we choose to embrace and believe, whether it be paganism, christianity, astrology, etc or none of these.

Ideals are a projection of what we are.
I was inviting you into a loftier world of being, knowing that you would spit on te gift.

My incurable ideals for humans show you what I am.
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Re: Forever

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:59 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
There is nowhere someone can stand where he or she has no beliefs otherwise we would all be robots

I do not believe anything because belief is a faith position which requires no evidence. There are things I think are true but thinking and believing are not the
same. I have no time for belief. I do not define knowledge as justified true belief either because knowledge and belief have got nothing to do with each other
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Re: Forever

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:13 am

Fixed wrote:

Ideals are a projection of what we are.
I was inviting you into a loftier world of being, knowing that you would spit on te gift.

My incurable ideals for humans show you what I am.


Whoa....give me some time to read and digest I am new on this subject Orlog, as for spitting on it that is not the case. What occurred to me was the curious similarity in some parts between Judaism and Orlog. Can I ask a question of you no need to answer if you consider it too personal. Have you abandoned Judaism entirely in favour of Orlog and if so what are your reasons you chose to do so?


There is a certain type of "reward" or "punishment" one can receive. Because there is no forgiveness under these concepts, one would have to strive to atone and make up for the past wrongs by balancing them out with "right" actions. Depending on your orlog, you may go to one of the various halls or have the halls closed to you. However, most tend to not think too much about the afterlife. The "here and now" is thought to be the more important aspect, and whatever comes will come.

Sources:
Nordic Religions In the Viking Age by University of Pennsylvania Press


Unlike many other faiths, however, Judaism does not regard these faith convictions as redemptive in and of themselves. Judaism is a mitzvah-oriented faith which insists that one’s re­ligious convictions be translated into virtuous deeds. Without the underpinnings of faith, there can be no motivation or ra­tionale to live a life of religious observance. We are not content, however, to have faith confessions remain theoretical. Instead, they become moral challenges and exhortations to man. They ex­press themselves through norms of human behavior and are endowed with practical significance, stimulating us either to do or to abstain, to engage or to withdraw. A faith conviction may be theologically or philosophically significant, but what is primary is the moral principle and practice that emerges from it.

Joseph Ber Soloveitchik was a major American Orthodox rabbi, Talmudist, and modern Jewish philosopher.
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