Moderator: Dan~
dan25 wrote:Or perhaps when religious thinkers use these words they mean something different to what I understand by them.....
Views?
They [idea of God, Soul, the Universe] are sophistications not of men but of Pure Reason itself. Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them. After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him. -B397
dan wrote:
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another
James S Saint wrote:
- Omnipresent - What is in all places?
- Omnipotent - What holds all authority?
- Omniscient - What is aware of even the tiniest and most secretive of events?
- Omnibenevolent - What is willing to serve anyone who properly asks?
And you can even add an "omni" if you wish:
- Omnicausal - What causes all things to be what they are?
surreptitious75 wrote:dan wrote:
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another
God can be omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevloent but no combination of them as he cannot defy
the rules of logic and so anyone claiming the three omnis for him is therefore engaging in logical fallacy
Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
phyllo wrote:Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
It puts an end to discussion and thinking.
phyllo wrote:Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
It puts an end to discussion and thinking.
Right. But the answer to the question is based on the axioms of the person answering. A person who believes in the rules of logic will say that it applies to everything, including God. A person who does not believe in the rules of logic will say that it does not apply to anything.I never said God could defy the rules of logic; I asked why an omnipotent being couldn't do so.
Persumably one can get some knowledge from observing the world/universe.What do we know about God? What can we know about God?
Almost everything we say about God is mere conjecture, including anything we say about Gods existence.
phyllo wrote:Right. But the answer to the question is based on the axioms of the person answering. A person who believes in the rules of logic will say that it applies to everything, including God. A person who does not believe in the rules of logic will say that it does not apply to anything.I never said God could defy the rules of logic; I asked why an omnipotent being couldn't do so.
There is no "reason" beyond that.Persumably one can get some knowledge from observing the world/universe.What do we know about God? What can we know about God?
Almost everything we say about God is mere conjecture, including anything we say about Gods existence.
If you ignore the part that logically the universe ought not to exist.It's not that I don't believe in the rules of logic, logic works for us brilliantly.
Sure, question whatever you want.But i believe,as philosophers, especially skeptics, we have the right to question everything, including the rules of logic.
If you say think that God is necessary to explain the existance of the universe, then God is powerful enough to create the universe.What can studying the world/universe tell us about God?
phyllo wrote:If you ignore the part that logically the universe ought not to exist.It's not that I don't believe in the rules of logic, logic works for us brilliantly.
Sure, question whatever you want.But i believe,as philosophers, especially skeptics, we have the right to question everything, including the rules of logic.
I pointed out that a person who thinks that God can defy logic is also not bound by logic when talking about God. So that has to be considered when evaluating the answers.
And fundamentally the question is really about the meaning of the word "omnipotence". We don't know what kind of "potence" God has and we have no way of finding out. So the discussion is about a word.If you say think that God is necessary to explain the existance of the universe, then God is powerful enough to create the universe.What can studying the world/universe tell us about God?
There is a lot of life around us, so presumably God wanted to create life.
Humans have big brains and the ability to reason, so presumably God wants us to take advantage of that ability.
Etc.
That kind of stuff.
That's your interpretation of what "omnipotent" means. That's your interpretation of what "all" and "powerful' mean when placed together to form a phrase.The word "omnipotent" is defined as "all powerful", which means having the power to do ANYTHING.
If a being can do ANYTHING, then it could defy the rules of logic.
Somebody said that God is "omniwhatever". He/she had something in mind but it may not have been what you have in mind now. He/she could not possibly know that God is "omniwhatever".The point is that we don't know what we are talking about when we say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
Who said that it is???Having the power to create the universe is not necessarily the same as being ALL-POWERFUL, having ALL power, the power to do ANYTHING.
dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.
dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.
phyllo wrote:dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.
IOW, you're saying that we can't know much (if anything) about God.
Okay.
Arcturus Descending wrote:dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.
If there possibly could be Something which acted as the catalyst to bring Everything into existence, is it not possible that at the very least studying the Universe could point to This as being Pure Energy?
My intuition tells me that if there is anything which can express the reality of this concept called God, it would be science - certainly not religion. People look for *facts* in the legal system, not hearsay and belief.
Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?
Return to Religion and Spirituality
Users browsing this forum: No registered users