How can God be.....

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How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:40 pm

Many religious thinkers claim God is all-powerfull, all-knowing and all-loving (omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, respectively).
An all-loving God that knows about the suffering in the world, and has the power to alleviate this suffering is very difficult to believe in.
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another.
Lets say God has to make a choice between A and B.
Being omniscient God knows which will be chosen, A or B.
But being omnipotent God can choose the option that he/it knows will NOT be chosen.....
This seems obviously contradictory.
Omnipotence seems to contradict itself...
Could God create a rock so heavy.....
Or perhaps when religious thinkers use these words they mean something different to what I understand by them.....

Views?
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:40 am

dan25 wrote:Or perhaps when religious thinkers use these words they mean something different to what I understand by them.....

Views?

That fits most, I think.

In thousands of years of bantering about something so very influential throughout society, written in a relatively primitive language for only a specific set of people to ever read or hear, many words get bent, twisted, skewed, and sometimes entirely misunderstood .. and sometimes on purpose.

The "omni's" are merely shortened concept words, never intended to meet extreme pedantic standards. But a way to realize more about God is to use those words as guides in seeking out what, if anything, could possibly come close to meeting those concepts. It's a riddle.

  • Omnipresent - What is in all places?
  • Omnipotent - What holds all authority?
  • Omniscient - What is aware of even the tiniest and most secretive of events?
  • Omnibenevolent - What is willing to serve anyone who properly asks?

And you can even add an "omni" if you wish:
  • Omnicausal - What causes all things to be what they are?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:47 am

The emergence of the idea [not a concept] of God arose within human consciousness because of a psychological impulse to counter a very terrible existential crisis inherent and unavoidable within the human psyche.

As Kant wrote [mine];
They [idea of God, Soul, the Universe] are sophistications not of men but of Pure Reason itself. Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them. After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him. -B397


The idea of God arose out of desperate psychological reasons but nevertheless such an idea [philosophical] is based on reason and logic [attempted] but it is primal pure reason similarly to those used by the 'higher' beasts [primates, etc.].

The idea of God started with crude reasonings but nevertheless are countered by non-theists and others which set forth a spiral of arguments and counter-arguments which end up with claims of the tri-omnis and whatever 'omni'. Because of the desperation based on crude reasonings, the refiner consideration of contradictions [as in the example you raised above and others] are missed out.

In facing more counters from non-theists, theists has to push their claims to the ultimate ontological God, i.e. an Absolutely Perfect Being. With this, God can do no wrongs, because whatever contradictions raised God being perfect has the perfect answer to it but humans being imperfect and infallible will not be above to understand God.

However, when theists pushed their God to the ultimate as an ontological God, they are actually setting themselves for the final checkmate move against themselves.

When they pushed their God to the level of the 'absolute' thence 'Absolute', i.e.
"If the term absolute is understood in the strict sense, it rejects the relativity which is inherent to the mechanism of human cognition, understanding, and language."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Absolute_(philosophy)#Conceptual_issues
it transcend beyond to the ream of the empirically impossible.

Thus God cannot be ... i.e. impossible to be within empirical-rational reality.

    Theist: I will kill you because you are a non-theist as God sanction it and said so in the holy text God delivered through his messenger.
This is what is really going on at present because the majority accept God as "really real" thus providing ambient support to all theists including the evil prone ones.

Since the idea of God began from the psychological, the only solution to all questions and evils [such as the above] associated with God has to be resolved from the psychological basis.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:36 am

dan wrote:
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another

God can be omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevloent but no combination of them as he cannot defy
the rules of logic and so anyone claiming the three omnis for him is therefore engaging in logical fallacy
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:43 pm

.
Well, solve the riddle?
James S Saint wrote:
  • Omnipresent - What is in all places?
  • Omnipotent - What holds all authority?
  • Omniscient - What is aware of even the tiniest and most secretive of events?
  • Omnibenevolent - What is willing to serve anyone who properly asks?

And you can even add an "omni" if you wish:
  • Omnicausal - What causes all things to be what they are?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby ezak42 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:38 am

there are no rules; other than energy manifest as consciousness and the self-imposed limitations of our own individualized perspectives.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:42 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
dan wrote:
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another

God can be omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevloent but no combination of them as he cannot defy
the rules of logic and so anyone claiming the three omnis for him is therefore engaging in logical fallacy



Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:07 pm

If we assume omnibenevolence, omnivigor, we have to assume that "God" forms a reality for each being that only has a positive outcome for that one being without hurting any other beings... "god" is also considered the Omni creator - which is absurd, how can the mother of all, who is part of all, be the mother of all?

It's impossible. There is no "mother of all". Logic is used to reality orient, people who "defy logic" are using social dominance to make mindless drones.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:20 pm

Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.

It puts an end to discussion and thinking.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby James S Saint » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:53 pm

phyllo wrote:
Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.

It puts an end to discussion and thinking.

Hey, if reality only exists to serve man's whims (as per Prism), why shouldn't logic?
"It's logical if we believe that it's logical."
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:17 pm

phyllo wrote:
Why couldn't an omnipotent being "defy the rules of logic"?
Saying that God can "defy the rules of logic" is a cop-out. It's generally self-serving. It allows a person to say anything that he pleases about God ... no matter how unreasonable, illogical or inconsistent.

It puts an end to discussion and thinking.



I never said God could defy the rules of logic; I asked why an omnipotent being couldn't do so.
What do we know about God? What can we know about God?
Almost everything we say about God is mere conjecture, including anything we say about Gods existence.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:02 am

IF God had the power to do ANYTHING, he/it woud also have the power to "defy the rules of logic".
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:08 am

I never said God could defy the rules of logic; I asked why an omnipotent being couldn't do so.
Right. But the answer to the question is based on the axioms of the person answering. A person who believes in the rules of logic will say that it applies to everything, including God. A person who does not believe in the rules of logic will say that it does not apply to anything.

There is no "reason" beyond that.
What do we know about God? What can we know about God?
Almost everything we say about God is mere conjecture, including anything we say about Gods existence.
Persumably one can get some knowledge from observing the world/universe.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:33 am

phyllo wrote:
I never said God could defy the rules of logic; I asked why an omnipotent being couldn't do so.
Right. But the answer to the question is based on the axioms of the person answering. A person who believes in the rules of logic will say that it applies to everything, including God. A person who does not believe in the rules of logic will say that it does not apply to anything.

There is no "reason" beyond that.
What do we know about God? What can we know about God?
Almost everything we say about God is mere conjecture, including anything we say about Gods existence.
Persumably one can get some knowledge from observing the world/universe.


It's not that I don't believe in the rules of logic, logic works for us brilliantly.
But i believe,as philosophers, especially skeptics, we have the right to question everything, including the rules of logic.

What can studying the world/universe tell us about God?
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:13 am

It's not that I don't believe in the rules of logic, logic works for us brilliantly.
If you ignore the part that logically the universe ought not to exist. :shock:
But i believe,as philosophers, especially skeptics, we have the right to question everything, including the rules of logic.
Sure, question whatever you want.

I pointed out that a person who thinks that God can defy logic is also not bound by logic when talking about God. So that has to be considered when evaluating the answers.

And fundamentally the question is really about the meaning of the word "omnipotence". We don't know what kind of "potence" God has and we have no way of finding out. So the discussion is about a word.
What can studying the world/universe tell us about God?
If you say think that God is necessary to explain the existance of the universe, then God is powerful enough to create the universe.

There is a lot of life around us, so presumably God wanted to create life.

Humans have big brains and the ability to reason, so presumably God wants us to take advantage of that ability.

Etc.

That kind of stuff. :-k
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:06 pm

phyllo wrote:
It's not that I don't believe in the rules of logic, logic works for us brilliantly.
If you ignore the part that logically the universe ought not to exist. :shock:
But i believe,as philosophers, especially skeptics, we have the right to question everything, including the rules of logic.
Sure, question whatever you want.

I pointed out that a person who thinks that God can defy logic is also not bound by logic when talking about God. So that has to be considered when evaluating the answers.

And fundamentally the question is really about the meaning of the word "omnipotence". We don't know what kind of "potence" God has and we have no way of finding out. So the discussion is about a word.
What can studying the world/universe tell us about God?
If you say think that God is necessary to explain the existance of the universe, then God is powerful enough to create the universe.

There is a lot of life around us, so presumably God wanted to create life.

Humans have big brains and the ability to reason, so presumably God wants us to take advantage of that ability.

Etc.

That kind of stuff. :-k



"Words have no meaning beyond that which we put into them"'- Ayer.
"Words are our slaves, not our masters"- Dawkins.

The word "omnipotent" is defined as "all powerful", which means having the power to do ANYTHING.
If a being can do ANYTHING, then it could defy the rules of logic.
I'm not arguing that God is omnipotent, nor even that there is (or isn't) a God.
The point is that we don't know what we are talking about when we say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
Having the power to create the universe is not necessarily the same as being ALL-POWERFUL, having ALL power, the power to do ANYTHING.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:10 pm

Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:23 pm

And just because life exists doesn't necessarily mean "God wanted to create life".
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:36 pm

The word "omnipotent" is defined as "all powerful", which means having the power to do ANYTHING.
If a being can do ANYTHING, then it could defy the rules of logic.
That's your interpretation of what "omnipotent" means. That's your interpretation of what "all" and "powerful' mean when placed together to form a phrase.

Somebody else will have a slightly different (very different?) interpretation.

By all means, have a discussion about it.
The point is that we don't know what we are talking about when we say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
Somebody said that God is "omniwhatever". He/she had something in mind but it may not have been what you have in mind now. He/she could not possibly know that God is "omniwhatever".

Whatever.
Having the power to create the universe is not necessarily the same as being ALL-POWERFUL, having ALL power, the power to do ANYTHING.
Who said that it is???
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:40 pm

dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.

IOW, you're saying that we can't know much (if anything) about God.

Okay.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:55 pm

dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.


If there possibly could be Something which acted as the catalyst to bring Everything into existence, is it not possible that at the very least studying the Universe could point to This as being Pure Energy?

My intuition tells me that if there is anything which can express the reality of this concept called God, it would be science - certainly not religion. People look for *facts* in the legal system, not hearsay and belief.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:44 pm

phyllo wrote:
dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.

IOW, you're saying that we can't know much (if anything) about God.

Okay.


Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:51 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.


If there possibly could be Something which acted as the catalyst to bring Everything into existence, is it not possible that at the very least studying the Universe could point to This as being Pure Energy?

My intuition tells me that if there is anything which can express the reality of this concept called God, it would be science - certainly not religion. People look for *facts* in the legal system, not hearsay and belief.


Science, as it exists right now, can't tell us anything about God...
Perhaps the science of the future might shed light on questions pertaining to God (though I doubt it), but certainly not the science of today.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:48 pm

If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?
The temple mount will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and all the nations of the world will be ruled from there. All races, cultures, leaders, and nations will come to bow before the new messiah yet to come. All will come to know the chosen of God who refer themselves as Jews. For every Jew there will be a thousand goyim that will be their slaves as it was ordained by God. Every man, woman, and child will convert to Zionism.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:05 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?


Can God really be "all powerful", thpugh; is it possible?
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