How can God be.....

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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:10 pm

dan25 wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?


Can God really be "all powerful", thpugh; is it possible?

You'll notice that is why I said if.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:18 pm

dan25 wrote:
phyllo wrote:
dan25 wrote:Also I don't think studying the universe can tell us much (if anything) about God.

IOW, you're saying that we can't know much (if anything) about God.

Okay.


Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.
Why are you talking about God if you can't know anything about God?
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:28 pm

phyllo wrote:
Why are you talking about God if you can't know anything about God?

Probably because others are claiming that they can indeed know things.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:39 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
phyllo wrote:
Why are you talking about God if you can't know anything about God?

Probably because others are claiming that they can indeed know things.
Maybe they do know. Since he cannot know about God, then he is in no position to contradict their statements about God.

The only things which can reasonable argued about, are things which are knowable.

Has he established the limits of human knowledge with respect to God? No

What can be known about God and how is it known? Start there.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:45 pm

phyllo wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
phyllo wrote:
Why are you talking about God if you can't know anything about God?

Probably because others are claiming that they can indeed know things.
Maybe they do know. Since he cannot know about God, then he is in no position to contradict their statements about God.

The only things which can reasonable argued about, are things which are knowable.

Has he established the limits of human knowledge with respect to God? No

What can be known about God and how is it known? Start there.


It could be that he is saying since I cannot know anything about God then nobody else can either.

You're saying they could possibly know but that would require evidence not faith to prove so.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:29 pm

It could be that he is saying since I cannot know anything about God then nobody else can either.
A very broad statement which would need to be justified.
You're saying they could possibly know but that would require evidence not faith to prove so.
I'm saying that evidence exists and it's observable in the world/universe. If it's not observable, then there is no reason to believe that God exists.

"Faith" is bullshit.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:19 pm

"...God, the principle and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason from created things".

- Pope Pius IX, Dei Filius, 1870
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:38 am

Zero_Sum wrote:
dan25 wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?


Can God really be "all powerful", thpugh; is it possible?

You'll notice that is why I said if.


Fair point, you did say "if".
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 pm

phyllo wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
phyllo wrote:
Why are you talking about God if you can't know anything about God?

Probably because others are claiming that they can indeed know things.
Maybe they do know. Since he cannot know about God, then he is in no position to contradict their statements about God.

The only things which can reasonable argued about, are things which are knowable.

Has he established the limits of human knowledge with respect to God? No

What can be known about God and how is it known? Start there.


What CAN be known about God?
Well clear reason lets us deduce some things.
For example: we know that God either exists or doesn't.
No human has ever proved, to the satisfaction of all, that there is a God, but nobody has ever proved that there is NO God either....
I thought it was obvious from the opening words of my OP ("Many religious thinkers claim") that I was criticizing what others claim about God....


The universe is evidence of God, but it's not proof.
This thing we call "God" seems to be beyond proof, beyond disproof...
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:37 pm

dan25 wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?


Can God really be "all powerful", thpugh; is it possible?


I doubt it. What a gross waste of power there would be. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
My intuition tells me that the human psyche needs the thought of an omnipotent God to make up for our own sense of powerlessness in such a chaotic world.
“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
Viktor E. Frankl



It Felt Love

How did the rose
Ever open its heart
And give to this world
All its beauty?
It felt the encouragement of light
Against its being,
Otherwise,
We all remain
Too frightened
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby dan25 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:51 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
dan25 wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:If God is all powerful and unknowable by mere mortals, how can human beings know anything about God?


Can God really be "all powerful", thpugh; is it possible?


I doubt it. What a gross waste of power there would be. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
My intuition tells me that the human psyche needs the thought of an omnipotent God to make up for our own sense of powerlessness in such a chaotic world.


My own intuition leads me to believe the same thing.....
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:00 pm

I thought it was obvious from the opening words of my OP ("Many religious thinkers claim") that I was criticizing what others claim about God....
Notice that I did not reply to the OP. I replied when you asked "why can't an omnipotent being defy the rules of logic?". And my reply was in the nature of "Think about it. What kind of answer are you going to get? Why do you bother to even ask?".
No human has ever proved, to the satisfaction of all, that there is a God, but nobody has ever proved that there is NO God either....
There are few proofs possible in life and they exist only in very controlled and limited circumstances. Even these do not "satisfy" all. For example, mathematical proofs are meaningless to non-mathematicians.
The universe is evidence of God, but it's not proof.
This thing we call "God" seems to be beyond proof, beyond disproof...
The majority of life is not based on proof, certainty and the agreement of all people. I don't know why people insist on such things when they are not applicable. :-?

One has to accept the limitations of human existence.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:22 pm

phyllo wrote:
It could be that he is saying since I cannot know anything about God then nobody else can either.
A very broad statement which would need to be justified.
You're saying they could possibly know but that would require evidence not faith to prove so.
I'm saying that evidence exists and it's observable in the world/universe. If it's not observable, then there is no reason to believe that God exists.

"Faith" is bullshit.

Justified how? What exactly are you arguing?

What evidence that is observable exists? Yes, I'm arguing that faith is bullshit also. Aren't we arguing for the same thing here?
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:38 pm

dan25 wrote:
What CAN be known about God?
Well clear reason lets us deduce some things.
For example: we know that God either exists or doesn't.
No human has ever proved, to the satisfaction of all, that there is a God, but nobody has ever proved that there is NO God either....
I thought it was obvious from the opening words of my OP ("Many religious thinkers claim") that I was criticizing what others claim about God....


The universe is evidence of God, but it's not proof.
This thing we call "God" seems to be beyond proof, beyond disproof...


The origin of God and religion is that of social control so it is not mere coincidence that it is very ambiguous to prove or disprove as this was all very intentionally done by ancient priests thousands of years ago. The very best kind of social propaganda and control is the kind that you cannot prove or disprove as it intentionally confuses the minds of people keeping them in constant disarray leading them to be easily directed. Because it cannot be proved or disproved so easily it makes it difficult for a minority of would be rebels to fight against it with a faithful devoted majority outnumbering them. With authority zealous faith is a weapon to be utilized and is used often.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm

Justified how? What exactly are you arguing?
Just because I don't know something (and cannot) know, does not mean that nobody knows. It's easy to show ... I cannot know what my neighbor was doing last night at 8 o'clock but he knows. A killer knows that he killed someone even when nobody else knows. Etc.
What evidence that is observable exists?
I alluded to some in this thread. You can look up arguments for the existence of God on the internet. :D
Design arguments for example are based on evidence ...
http://www.iep.utm.edu/design/
Yes, I'm arguing that faith is bullshit also. Aren't we arguing for the same thing here?
No. You are arguing that there is no evidence, only faith. I'm arguing that there is evidence and faith is not sufficient or required.

Therefore, we come to different conclusions about the existence of God.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:34 pm

phyllo wrote:
Justified how? What exactly are you arguing?
Just because I don't know something (and cannot) know, does not mean that nobody knows. It's easy to show ... I cannot know what my neighbor was doing last night at 8 o'clock but he knows. A killer knows that he killed someone even when nobody else knows. Etc.
What evidence that is observable exists?
I alluded to some in this thread. You can look up arguments for the existence of God on the internet. :D
Design arguments for example are based on evidence ...
http://www.iep.utm.edu/design/
Yes, I'm arguing that faith is bullshit also. Aren't we arguing for the same thing here?
No. You are arguing that there is no evidence, only faith. I'm arguing that there is evidence and faith is not sufficient or required.

Therefore, we come to different conclusions about the existence of God.


Are you arguing for a world of solipsism? The arguments for the existence of God are very weak and misleading which is why I don't embrace them.

So, you're arguing from the position as a theist against my position of atheism, I didn't think you were a theist. How very interesting.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:05 pm

Are you arguing for a world of solipsism?
There are things which are known to some people and not others. That's not solipsism. That's just a fact.

The nature of knowledge is an interesting topic to investigate.
The arguments for the existence of God are very weak and misleading which is why I don't embrace them.
Okay. Others disagree. One can discuss what is a strong and weak argument or what is adequate or sufficient.
So, you're arguing from the position as a theist against my position of atheism, I didn't think you were a theist. How very interesting.
Well, I might be arguing a position that I don't personally hold ... for fun or to exercise myself or to expand my awareness and understanding. Or not.

I know ... people at ILP just could not wrap their heads around such an idea. :evilfun:
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:The origin of God and religion is that of social control so it is not mere coincidence that it is very ambiguous to prove or disprove as this was all very intentionally done by ancient priests thousands of years ago. The very best kind of social propaganda and control is the kind that you cannot prove or disprove as it intentionally confuses the minds of people keeping them in constant disarray leading them to be easily directed. Because it cannot be proved or disproved so easily it makes it difficult for a minority of would be rebels to fight against it with a faithful devoted majority outnumbering them. With authority zealous faith is a weapon to be utilized and is used often.

Correlation is not causation.

Dogs use their tails for communication. But that doesn't mean that such is why they grew them.

In trying to explain to some families how to avoid dying out, or how to escape slavery, methods to be highly respected are distributed to the enslaved or dying out. And the excuse for respected them is; "That's just the way it is" and "Because this is what works". They ask "Who are we having faith in? Who is our guide and lead? "I am that I am", they are told. "Worship no one other than Me, and you will not die out and they can never enslave you again."

Today when slavery of a different type is being instilled, you might notice the strong push against any idea that there is a Reality (aka "Everything is relative", "Everything is mind", "multiple realities", "multiple parallel universes, "No one can really know", "faith is for the foolish", "There is no Truth", "No one can know anything for certain", "Only scientists know (the new priesthood)", and "There is no evidence at all to have faith in any God, damn you!".

Guess what? Atheists are actually fighting for the return of enslavement by the Pharaohs via the method of "blame-shifting" and "scapegoating"; "Those evil God worshipers are just trying to enslave you" when in fact, as is very often the case, the reverse is more true. Who you think to be the "good guys on your side", are in fact, the "bad guys setting you up". But that's not to say that the effort to enslave is only one sided. First chance given, former slaves do everything they can to enslave everyone else.

    "Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise."



What was the solution to their riddle?
James S Saint wrote:
  • Omnipresent - What is in all places?
  • Omnipotent - What holds all authority?
  • Omniscient - What is aware of even the tiniest and most secretive of events?
  • Omnibenevolent - What is willing to serve anyone who properly asks?

And you can even add an "omni" if you wish:
  • Omnicausal - What causes all things to be what they are?

One word;
      Truth (meaning "Reality", "Your Real Situation")

"The Truth will set you free" (as long as you maintain faith in it). Respect/worship nothing else.

How do we know Truth?

..not easily. "Pray to" (humbly seek of) Reality. Meditate on it. Contemplate it. But Nullius en verba.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Anomaly654 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm

dan25 wrote:Many religious thinkers claim God is all-powerfull, all-knowing and all-loving (omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, respectively).
An all-loving God that knows about the suffering in the world, and has the power to alleviate this suffering is very difficult to believe in.
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another.
Lets say God has to make a choice between A and B.
Being omniscient God knows which will be chosen, A or B.
But being omnipotent God can choose the option that he/it knows will NOT be chosen.....
This seems obviously contradictory.
Omnipotence seems to contradict itself...
Could God create a rock so heavy.....
Or perhaps when religious thinkers use these words they mean something different to what I understand by them.....

Views?

I suspect many theists--strengthened in this idea by their faith--hold that given the omnipotence and omniscience of God, it's reasonable to assume that our view of His inability or reluctance or refusal to interfere in pain and suffering is analogous to the parent who allows his child to suffer the consequences of her poor choices; sometimes that's the only way the child learns. When my very stubborn middle daughter was a toddler she reached one day for a pot of hot water on the stove. I scolded and instructed her to not touch. Lower lip came out and glaring angrily at me, the little hand slowly reached for the pot. Again, the command to stop, again the pout and tentative reaching. I let her reach. A few tears and a Band-Aid resulted. She never touched a hot stove again.

If on the scale of human understanding there exist reasons why good can come from allowing suffering in love, then there seems reason through the eyes of faith to assume that the same principle applies on the scale wherein an omnipotent and omniscient God allows human suffering--and that suffering's end will attain a greater good than its initial "cost".
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:03 am

Anomaly654 wrote:
dan25 wrote:Many religious thinkers claim God is all-powerfull, all-knowing and all-loving (omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, respectively).
An all-loving God that knows about the suffering in the world, and has the power to alleviate this suffering is very difficult to believe in.
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict one another.
Lets say God has to make a choice between A and B.
Being omniscient God knows which will be chosen, A or B.
But being omnipotent God can choose the option that he/it knows will NOT be chosen.....
This seems obviously contradictory.
Omnipotence seems to contradict itself...
Could God create a rock so heavy.....
Or perhaps when religious thinkers use these words they mean something different to what I understand by them.....

Views?

I suspect many theists--strengthened in this idea by their faith--hold that given the omnipotence and omniscience of God, it's reasonable to assume that our view of His inability or reluctance or refusal to interfere in pain and suffering is analogous to the parent who allows his child to suffer the consequences of her poor choices; sometimes that's the only way the child learns. When my very stubborn middle daughter was a toddler she reached one day for a pot of hot water on the stove. I scolded and instructed her to not touch. Lower lip came out and glaring angrily at me, the little hand slowly reached for the pot. Again, the command to stop, again the pout and tentative reaching. I let her reach. A few tears and a Band-Aid resulted. She never touched a hot stove again.

If on the scale of human understanding there exist reasons why good can come from allowing suffering in love, then there seems reason through the eyes of faith to assume that the same principle applies on the scale wherein an omnipotent and omniscient God allows human suffering--and that suffering's end will attain a greater good than its initial "cost".


You completely miss the point of omnipotence, omnicreation and omnibenevolence... the hot stove would never burn the child.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:40 am

You completely miss the point of omnipotence, omnicreation and omnibenevolence... the hot stove would never burn the child.
That's one rebuttal. Another is that the kid would not be tempted to touch a hot stove.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:25 pm

Phyllo wrote:

....
I replied when you asked "why can't an omnipotent being defy the rules of logic?". And my reply was in the nature of "Think about it. What kind of answer are you going to get? Why do you bother to even ask?".


What is wrong with asking that question, Phyllo?

I do not think that an *omnipotent* being could even necessarily defy the rules of logic.


An all-powerful being is NOT necessarily one who is omniscient (unless that being WAS proven to be both).
You cannot get blood out of stone so an all-powerful being who is not also omnicient cannot, cognitively speaking, defy the rules of logic since that being is not capable of logic in the first place.

Wouldn't it take an all-knowing being to deliberately defy the rules of logic? All knowing suggests that there would be a *knowable* reason for deliberately defying logic - that the outcome would be better served in defying logic.

Did that make any sense? :-k
“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
Viktor E. Frankl



It Felt Love

How did the rose
Ever open its heart
And give to this world
All its beauty?
It felt the encouragement of light
Against its being,
Otherwise,
We all remain
Too frightened
Hafiz
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:04 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:The emergence of the idea [not a concept] of God arose within human consciousness because of a psychological impulse to counter a very terrible existential crisis inherent and unavoidable within the human psyche.
And this was determined empirically how?
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Snark » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:22 pm

How can That which underpins everything knowable be reduced to an idea or belief? Where and how does an observer find evidence for Wholeness?

This whole business of trying to ideate and explain away the very human sense of the sacred is dehumanizing and insane.
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Re: How can God be.....

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:13 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The emergence of the idea [not a concept] of God arose within human consciousness because of a psychological impulse to counter a very terrible existential crisis inherent and unavoidable within the human psyche.
And this was determined empirically how?
This is a very complex issue and I shall address it superficially.

First it is proven the idea of God is merely a mental thought and do not has any empirical element. Thus it is an impossibility within an empirical-rational reality.

There are empirical evidences of how the idea of God arose psychologically which is empirically based.

    1. There are loads of evidences how the idea of God arise and is experienced and felt via mental illnesses, brain damage, electrical stimulations, drugs, chemical, hallucinogens, stress and various reasons that trigger the mind to identify with a God.

    2. Many non-theistic spiritualities has dealt with the same inherent unavoidable existential crisis on a non-theistic and psychological basis from many thousands of years ago, e.g. Buddhism and other non-theistic spiritualities.

3. Some theistic approaches use drugs and hallucinogen [note 1 above] to enhance their experiences of a God.

There are more complex explanation but the above two are sufficient empirical basis to justify how the idea of God [illusory and impossible] arise due to empirically psychological factors.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
Prismatic567
Philosopher
 
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