No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:40 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:
James S Saint wrote:And Mr R, if you want to take up his case for him, go for it. He needs serious help with it.


What side to you want me to do? Am I arguing that there's no god?

Let's get on a clean thread if that is the debate you want to take on. Start one. We can at least show someone what an actual debate should look like.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:43 am

I never start threads man. I finish them.

Prismatic....when you say there's no evidence.....how do you rule out firsthand evidence contained in private mental states?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:45 am

Prism isn't going to be able to justify his arguments to you.

And why are you afraid to start threads?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 am

Afraid? I started the greatest thread of all time. My work is done.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:48 am

I'm seeing a lot of talking, no walking.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:50 am

Let's talk about symbols and referents on your side, and evidence contained in private mental states on his side. I mean, I technically think that you're both wrong.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:54 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Let's talk about symbols and referents on your side, and evidence contained in private mental states on his side. I mean, I technically think that you're both wrong.

I'm not sure what you are trying to put forth, but still, get it onto a clean thread so we can make sense of it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:56 am

I am sure that you're trying to get me to put something fourth, so that I can be at a rhetorical disadvantage as the one who's forced to induct. You're no Socrates James. I know these tricks.

Just tell me how you get from an abstract system to a concrete fact about the world without violating the distinction between symbols and referents.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:59 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:I am sure that you're trying to get me to put something fourth, so that I can be at a rhetorical disadvantage as the one who's forced to induct. You're no Socrates James. I know these tricks.

Oh, that is just a BS trick of your own. Afraid to commit to anything?

Mr Reasonable wrote:Just tell me how you get from an abstract system to a concrete fact about the world without violating the distinction between symbols and referents.

I still need for you to clarify that. Maybe an example or two?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:02 pm

You can draw all the diagrams that you want, and you can write out all the formulas in the world, and you can quantify everything under the sun and at the end of the day the proof as to whether there is or isn't a god just simply doesn't rest on those things.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:04 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:You can draw all the diagrams that you want, and you can write out all the formulas in the world, and you can quantify everything under the sun and at the end of the day the proof as to whether there is or isn't a god just simply doesn't rest on those things.

Well, that would be BS, but is that the error that you were talking about?

How about just quote whatever it was that you felt was whatever kind of error you are talking about.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:05 pm

I'll take your "BS" remark as your concession. It's 5am. Have something better for when I wake up. I don't have to quote you, I know how you think and my statement stands on its own.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:06 pm

That's what I thought. You never actually engage in debate, do you. Hit n Run.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:55 pm

I can't go to sleep at 5am? I'm not engaging you unless I start a new thread?

James, be real. Respond to the post and stop making it about me. You're better than this.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:I can't go to sleep at 5am? I'm not engaging you unless I start a new thread?

James, be real. Respond to the post and stop making it about me. You're better than this.

Your constant blame-shifting efforts don't work with me. You made a claim that I was wrong about something. I merely asked you to explain what you were referring to. And since then you have been backpedaling, shuffling your feet, and making excuses.

You are the one who needs to stop stalling, dodging, and blame-shifting and "get real". Or are you Not better than this?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:11 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:Like he and iambiguous are pretty much the same guy. Both just going all blue in the face but with one wanting to prove there's a right answer all the time, and the other wanting to prove that there's never one. They're both wrong. Simplified views of reality like those are always going to be wrong about a lot of stuff. That's just how shit works. Sometimes things are certain, sometimes they're indeterminant. James and iambiguous don't want to believe that.


Sigh...

Let's bring this down to...earth?

Playing the stock market.

There's the part where the folks who have the right answers invest in particular corporations and as a result make money. Right and wrong here are easily measured. By bank accounts for example.

But then the right/wrong dichotomy shifts from playing the stock market, to justifying it as a virtuous pursuit. Investment, in other words, in sync with capitalism, said to be in sync with the most or the only rational human interactions in the economic sphere.

But some argue that, on the contrary, capitalism is the immoral pursuit of selfish gain and exploitation. A mode of production [rooted historically] that is heavily invested in the "alienation of labor" and in "commodity fetishism".

Now, I do not argue that there is "never a right answer". I make the distinction between answers that are embedded objectively in the either/or world and answers that are embedded subjectively/subjunctively in the is/ought world.

And, per the OP, there are facts [right and wrong answers] regarding God and religion that either are as well in sync with the either/or world, or are instead embodied existentially in dasein and in conflicting goods.

Thus I am not only willing to acknowledge the existence of any number of "indeterminant" things, I point out time and again how my being entangled in this...

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

...is entirely predicated on "the agony of choice in the face of uncertainty".

Then it becomes a matter of folks like James and Mr. Reasonable noting the extent to which they are not in turn entangled in it. Relating precisely to those human interactions deeply embedded in contingency, chance and change.

Let's see if James and Mr. Reasonable are willing to pursue this out in the world of actual human interactions that do come into conflict over things like God and religion and value judgments. And political prejudices.

How about starting a new thread, Smears?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:24 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:Afraid? I started the greatest thread of all time. My work is done.



And, if I'm not mistaken, he means this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=179879

Note how he introduces it:

I'm sitting on my couch, watching a video of the alabama/lsu game while smoking a bong and waiting for chinese food to be delivered. I was thinking of getting someone over here to clean the place. This is usually what I'm doing, I've seen this game about 130-140 times now.
Or I'm in the bathroom someplace, bored and using my phone to post on message boards while I poop.


And, indeed, if ILP were but one more component of social media, I believe it may well be the greatest thread here.

He noted in jest. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby unknowing » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 pm

There is no evidence for anything involving the senses either. Can't trust the senses, can't trust that traffic light, color blind to our own color blindness, but we stop and go just the same. :-"
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:20 am

Everything is a guess, but you have to put faith in something. Put faith in the right thing, and you know it. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:12 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:And prismatic, the whole religion thing is so played out. I told you from the beginning that you're just rehashing and reformulating the problem of evil here, and that your stipulations don't change that fact, and somehow you've hilariously dragged james into a protracted debate and gotten him to show his ass a little. Funny, but still not a proof of an absence of a god. How can you not be bored with this? The entirety of the discourse on whether or not there's a god is so old, so established, so complete, so inconclusive, so well known, so easily recited that it literally blows my mind that anyone would bother to take more than a few minutes talking about it.
I am familiar with all the arguments against God [problem of evil, blah, blah, blah] and they leave holes for the theists to continue their beliefs and therefrom enable SOME [critical numbers] evil prone believers to be continually inspired by their God by its evil laden elements to commit terrible evils upon non-believers and their own.

For more than 2000 years humans have been arguing against God with the typical counters but there is still this;
Image
and the whole range of evils from SOME theists who are evil prone.

I believe my counter/thesis is a novelty to all those typical ineffective counters against the existence of an illusory God.

Btw, I am not proposing we eliminate theism at present but rather humanity must strive to find foolproof alternative methods to replace theism to deal with that inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

I have also provided an alternative theory why theists are compelled to believe in a God, i.e. due to psychological impulses. [evidences given].

In any case, this is merely a discussion and I am not an enforcement officer to force my views down any one throat.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:16 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Like when someone "proves" that a 3-omni god can't exist, they've presumed certainty about what's good and evil. That's a hell of a feat in and of itself. On top of that they've only proven that a) they've constructed an impossible definition, or b) that 1 certain kind of god can't exist.

I mean come on guys this is so basic.
Where did I presume certainty of what is good and evil? To tackle this we have to debate within the Philosophy of Morality and Ethics which I am very comfortable with.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:39 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:I never start threads man. I finish them.

Prismatic....when you say there's no evidence.....how do you rule out firsthand evidence contained in private mental states?
'Evidence' in this case refers to empirical evidence as in Science but in addition subject to philosophical rational justifications.

Private mental states are at best beliefs and strong personal conviction without objectivity.
Such private mental states could belong to the mentally sick, the average person and the genius.
To be credible all claims from private mental states must be verified and qualified to the Framework and System used.

The point is, it is very common for the idea of a God and experiences of God to arise from the mentally sick and due to other perversions from norm, e.g.



If the above guy had those experiences of God 2000 years ago, he or a group could have claimed he is the messiah then.
But in 2017 a psychiatric diagnosis inform us his problem is due to Temporal Epilepsy.

Einstein as a human also had his private mental states to hypothesize E=MC2 but to maintain credibility, his theory has to be proven with empirical evidence, which was done. This is the same type of evidence which is lacking for a claim God exists.

Note in my thesis 'God is an impossibility' it is not about evidence yet.
I am questioning the hypothesis 'God exists.'
I have demonstrated that such a hypothesis 'God is an impossibility' is not feasible at all, thus moot and a non-starter.
For the sake of even theory, such a hypothesis cannot be raised in the first place.
Since there is no hypothesis the question of evidence do not arise.

The only reasonable option for the idea of God to be raised is for psychological reasons.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:57 pm

That God does not exist has not been proved here beyond a reasonable doubt. So why not believe?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:58 am

Ierrellus wrote:That God does not exist has not been proved here beyond a reasonable doubt. So why not believe?
A giant tea pot orbiting a star does not exist has not been proved here beyond a reasonable doubt. So why not believe?

Anyone can make any claim, say X.
Whatever-X does not exist has not been proved here beyond a reasonable doubt. So why not believe?

A murderer [on death penalty] can claim an alien-X in outer space took control of his mind and body to kill 100 people.
So he pleaded,
Alien-X does not exist has not been proved here beyond a reasonable doubt. So why not believe and clear him of any guilt and set him free.

People [except the deranged] will not make the above claims because it is ridiculous so why theists are doing that for God.
I am sure theists will ask for proofs if they are accused of murder in a court of law.

The only reason why only theists [from the majority] make the above very unconventional claim is due to desperate psychology.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:16 pm

What makes psychology desperate?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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