No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:27 am

Ierrellus wrote:That the experience of God can be had due to conditions mentioned above may just indicate that the Kingdom is Within.
That could lead to idealism and others may lead to accuse you of solipsism and nihilism if reality and God is merely between the ears.

BTW, I find your advice to the elderly to be quite immature and obnoxious.
It was with good intentions. I apologize if you are uncomfortable with it.

What I noted is this, research indicate there is a naturally tendency for the elder to veer toward theism.
https://www.livescience.com/19971-belief-god-atheism-age.html
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.


As I had argued, the propensity to theism is due to psychological impulses to seek consonance and comfort against the arising subliminal angst. Theists will go the most extreme to maintain and sustain the keep the psychological stability and peace of mind. Note Abraham was even willing to kill his own son for God [which I had proven is illusory, do not exists and is an impossibility.

Thus for most theists [maybe you are the exception] they will have a terrible psychological reactions when their belief in a God is threatened. This is why jihadists are killing atheists for not believing in a God because the presence of non-theists is an automatic threat to their psychological security. Note how theists like JSS, Aminius, Snark attack me [rather than discussing rationally and philosophically] as if I am a serious threat [subconsciously] to their well being in arguing on the question of theism.

My point is, for the elderly it obvious their reasoning power is lesser than when they were younger. Facing arguments against theism can be rather stressful. Thus it would be better to retain the peace rather being stressed in arguing and defending theism.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Apparently, your agenda does not allow you to think clearly. Not all old people are senile or closed in mentally in their own peculiar existential awareness.
Nothing of the kingdom within suggests ideals, solipsism or nihilism. It simply suggests that you are partaker of what is also without. Schweitzer and others write of an inner knowing about God. It is no wish-fulfillment. We have evolved to believe in purpose that unites the inner and outer ways of being, becoming and belonging.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:54 pm

Ierrellus,

....
Nothing of the kingdom within suggests ideals, solipsism or nihilism.


How do you define the *kingdom within* Ierrellus? Is it for you wholly religious/spiritual?
At the very least, I might suggest that your inner kingdom holds ideals to be important.


No evidence for God, why still believe?

Perhaps there is a bit of solipsism within believing in a God simply because one thinks and feels that he/she has personally experienced that; ergo, God exists.

It simply suggests that you are partaker of what is also without.


I do not know about that. That seems to be simplifying things. No?
I might say that the *kingdom within* is ALSO a part of the human psyche and then one might go on to describe their own.
What is happening within Paul's life which gives us a clue to his kingdom within?

Schweitzer and others write of an inner knowing about God. It is no wish-fulfillment.


I personally greatly admired Albert Schweitzer but couldn't you say that that *inner knowing* was no more than a combination of intuition and let's say spiritual qualia? I have been there but it doesn't mean that I know God.
It may be a part of unconscious wishfulness or a beautiful play between an awesome universe seen and our brain chemistry.
Why do we use the word "know" or "knowing" when clearly we cannot?

We have evolved to believe in purpose that unites the inner and outer ways of being, becoming and belonging.

Believe...yes.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Snark » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:39 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Thus for most theists [maybe you are the exception], they will have a terrible psychological reactions when their belief in a God is threatened. This is why jihadists are killing atheists for not believing in a God because the presence of non-theists is an automatic threat to their psychological security. Note how theists like JSS, Aminius, Snark attack me [rather than discussing rationally and philosophically] as if I am a serious threat [subconsciously] to their well being in arguing on the question of theism.

OMG. How vain and egotistical can a person be? Ever consider the possibility that you are obnoxious as well as too closed-minded and obstinate to acknowledge the possibility that others have refuted your "arguments" (which are really nothing more than groundless assertions) to their satisfaction so they're no longer relevant? You can only repeat yourself so many times before people realize you have nothing to say. For example, you claim empiricism is fundamental to our understanding but refuse to explore its wider implications. You thereby close the door to new ideas and hitherto unknown possibilities. This makes your perspective too narrow to be of any serious concern to a rational person.

In a psychological experiment, a group of people of mixed ages was shown pictures of two yards, one slightly smaller than the other and irregular. They were then asked which yard would take less time to mow. Which age group was most likely to give the right answer and why?
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:36 am

Snark wrote:For example, you claim empiricism is fundamental to our understanding but refuse to explore its wider implications. You thereby close the door to new ideas and hitherto unknown possibilities. This makes your perspective too narrow to be of any serious concern to a rational person.
I have given a lot of considerations to the wider implications of empiricism, i.e. the empirically possible, i.e. unknown possibilities. I agree human-liked [empirically based] aliens could possibly exist somewhere in the Universe. The possibility of such is very slim but nevertheless possible. Such aliens existence can be confirmed when there are verifiable empirical evidences.

I have demonstrated the "idea" of a God is an empirical impossibility and it is not rational but rather pseudo-rational.
The "idea" of a God arose in humans' consciousness thousands of years ago but since then there are no conclusively evidence to prove God exists as real within an empirical-rational reality.

OTOH, I have provided evidences and arguments how the "idea" of God arose within the consciousness of the majority of people due to internal psychological impulses as driven by an inherent unavoidable existential dilemma/crisis.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Snark » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:34 am

The only thing you've demonstrated is your irrelevance and irrationality.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:22 am

Prismatic567 wrote:I have demonstrated the "idea" of a God is an empirical impossibility

That is a bold faced lie.

And in fact, the logical probability of aliens existing somewhere in the universe is 100%.
Last edited by James S Saint on Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:09 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:I have demonstrated the "idea" of a God is an empirical impossibility

That is a bold faced lie.
Provide justifiable counter arguments?

And in fact, the logical probability of aliens exiting somewhere in the universe is 100%.
How can you prove it is 100% certainty?
There is no 100% absolute certainty within philosophy.

Your views above are too shallow.
Merely stating 'aliens' is insufficient.
For any 'aliens' to be possible and probable, they have to be empirically-based, e.g. human-liked because humans are empirically possible as evident on Earth. Or it could be bacteria, virus liked, or with other empirical elements.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Snark » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:And in fact, the logical probability of aliens existing somewhere in the universe is 100%.

Not to mention that what I said has absolutely nothing to do with "aliens." I haven't the foggiest where he got that from.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:09 am

Prismatic567 wrote:How can you prove it is 100% certainty?
There is no 100% absolute certainty within philosophy.

It's called "mathematics". You wouldn't know anything about it.

See, there is a problem with all of your sermons. You can't comprehend how much more other people know about things than you. The things that you think are sophisticated and deep, are in fact, quite shallow and trivial. You just can't understand why or how they can be known. A cat can't comprehend how the internet could be real.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:22 am

What style of debate have you been using lately James? One that will start getting you warnings, I'd say.
James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:How can you prove it is 100% certainty?
There is no 100% absolute certainty within philosophy.

It's called "mathematics". You wouldn't know anything about it.

See, there is a problem with all of your sermons. You can't comprehend how much more other people know about things than you. The things that you think are sophisticated and deep, are in fact, quite shallow and trivial. You just can't understand why or how they can be known. A cat can't comprehend how the internet could be real.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:20 am

James doesn't like to lose, so he just keeps going even when he runs out of good arguments. He like really does think he's smarter than average, but I think he may just be a hard worker. Like some people get good grades in school naturally, and some people work really hard for them. The naturals are the smart ones, the hard workers are just...hard workers. He thinks he has a system which overcomes basic problems in philosophy, which makes me think that he doesn't understand some basic problems in philosophy. I wouldn't say that except that he seems so sure that it's not subject to any real flaws, but we all know that's not how the world works. I promise though, his explanations always start out with some shit about affectance and he always goes on from there. It's silly, but I let him do it because I know it's important to him.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 am

Like he and iambiguous are pretty much the same guy. Both just going all blue in the face but with one wanting to prove there's a right answer all the time, and the other wanting to prove that there's never one. They're both wrong. Simplified views of reality like those are always going to be wrong about a lot of stuff. That's just how shit works. Sometimes things are certain, sometimes they're indeterminant. James and iambiguous don't want to believe that.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 am

If they were both here right now they'd just accuse me of being high and then neglect to defend against my charges.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:26 am

Like, when James says it's mathematics, he ignores the distinction between symbols and referents. That's a big deal to a philosopher. James...you can't do that.

Just because you have 1 apple, and you get 1 more apple, and they weight so much, and you throw it at some certain speed, and you measure the mass of it, and you can figure out how far it will go with so much force behind it doesn't mean that there's a god.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:29 am

We have countered his claims over and over and over. He merely claims that we are "shallow", "naive", and "ignorant". Then he lies about how he has proven his case. No one at all has agreed with his case.

Then, of course, he whines when I return his insults. Read the threads from the beginning when we each have carefully explained why his sermons are erroneous. After pages and pages, we just give up explaining it to him, but remind him that he never proved anything and he is lying when he keeps claiming that he has.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:30 am

And prismatic, the whole religion thing is so played out. I told you from the beginning that you're just rehashing and reformulating the problem of evil here, and that your stipulations don't change that fact, and somehow you've hilariously dragged james into a protracted debate and gotten him to show his ass a little. Funny, but still not a proof of an absence of a god. How can you not be bored with this? The entirety of the discourse on whether or not there's a god is so old, so established, so complete, so inconclusive, so well known, so easily recited that it literally blows my mind that anyone would bother to take more than a few minutes talking about it.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:32 am

Winning a debate and solving a problem in philosophy are about as related to each other as a horse and saturn's rings.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:33 am

And Mr R, if you want to take up his case for him, go for it. He needs serious help with it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 am

Like when someone "proves" that a 3-omni god can't exist, they've presumed certainty about what's good and evil. That's a hell of a feat in and of itself. On top of that they've only proven that a) they've constructed an impossible definition, or b) that 1 certain kind of god can't exist.

I mean come on guys this is so basic.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 am

James S Saint wrote:And Mr R, if you want to take up his case for him, go for it. He needs serious help with it.


What side to you want me to do? Am I arguing that there's no god?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Just because you have 1 apple, and you get 1 more apple, and they weight so much, and you throw it at some certain speed, and you measure the mass of it, and you can figure out how far it will go with so much force behind it doesn't mean that there's a god.

...James will bully us all in his endeavour to make us believe otherwise... he takes all the joy out of things.. maybe he's a black hole, but on a planetary level.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 am

Does a black hole affect things?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:38 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Like, when James says it's mathematics, he ignores the distinction between symbols and referents. That's a big deal to a philosopher. James...you can't do that.

And you have no idea of what I was referring to. So who is really ignoring the referents?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:40 am

James S Saint wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Like, when James says it's mathematics, he ignores the distinction between symbols and referents. That's a big deal to a philosopher. James...you can't do that.

And you have no idea of what I was referring to. So who is really ignoring the referents?


James, you know that this post does not negate the problem that I pointed to, and you know just as well that I don't need to know what angle of what argument you were making for my point to stand. Don't even try this.

Quantities and functions of objects and relations between them doesn't prove anything about anything outside the system in which they're being considered. Godel knew this and so do you.
Last edited by Mr Reasonable on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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