No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:25 am

[quote="iambiguous

On the other hand, it would seem the overwhelming preponderance of this convincing unfolds when most are children. Parents, communities, cultures etc., set about the task of cramming God and religion into the brains of those who have almost no real capacity to question what they are told.
(Wait a determinist is concerned about when and how ideas arrive in brains? Do you think there is a process where free will applies?)


IN any case the process you decribe for how people get their paradigms holds for pretty much every belief system and certainly holds for the mishmash of beliefs and systems that most atheists and theists have today, that is, pretty much everyone. People don't even notice the ways they mix determinism and free will, tidbits of leftist and rightist 'truths' various psychological theories mixing with the psychiatric/pharmacological ones, even areas where you would think people could think (or feel)for themselves, like aesthetics, they are driven by a mishmash of contradictory rules and guidelines inherited from peer groups and parents.

Even you have inherited your is/ought dichotemy from particular threads of Western thought, coming out of philosophers like HUme - who it might be noted became very skeptical about 'is' itself and certainly causation and dropped out of the game. And of you below mention empiricism, but seem to have little knowledge of the problems of empiricism. It sets itself nicely in opposition to rationalism, but a pure empiricism is very hard to defend. To notice this would make your stance against objectivists harder to maintain because you are just another objectivist in this way also. A when convenient skeptic, but only then. You seem to be under the impression that you are one of the few people who have been skeptical enough to extricate your mind, at least some times, from cultural baggage - in relation to morals/ethics - but you are simply articulating a very specific inherited position from certain very European paradigmns that themselves have philosophical problems.

And there is still that yawning gap between being convinced that God exists and demonstrating to others why they ought to be convinced too.
Empirically in particular.
[/quote]

I am not in the club, is the constant implicit, sometimes explicit claim. But you have just another club. A philosophical position that has some good arguments in favor of it but also some serious inherent weaknesses supporting itself. It functions fairly well as a critique, when demanding demonstrations, but has it's own problem demonstrating it's validity.

And, again, relevant to your post here, it is just as inheritable. Just because you 'came to this belief' later in life means nothing. 1) you are a determinist. So what the fuck difference does it make if you came to a belief at a later stage in life 2) it is clearly, this belief, just an unquestioned trickle down, since you are so confident about the is/ought divide. Epistemological doubts, none here.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:08 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:The principle is; for anything to be convincing, it has to be justified true belief [JTB], i.e. knowledge.
If only. Are you seriously arguing that people are only convinced by justified arguements with true conclusions? That is objection 1. Objection two: When you make statements like 'The principle is:...' you are implicitly making claims of objectivity. Some people, mostly philosophers, think that JTB is a good definition of what should be considered KNOWLEDGE. They are not arguing that it is a definition of things that are convincing. It seems like you are having a hard time acknowledging his rather obvious point that your original statement about 'convincing' was ridiculous. You could acknowledge that and move on to more important issues, but you are just adding more silliness instead of just acknowledging that. Three, there are problems with JTB, Gettier has put forward many. I think it is further problematic because it should simply be JB, or best JB. The reason for this is because to say it is True and we know this beyond the the justification, then we do not need the justification. It implies that we can absolutely know things, which most JTB believers do not believe. In science there is a tendency to believe the currently best justified beliefs, those supported by the most evidence. To then add that these beliefs are true goes beyond empiricisms purview. It also implies that 'truth' is a criterion we add to the justification criterion. LIke, check it is well justified. Check it is True. Which is sillly. We could check to see if it is falsified. As in knowledge is a well justified not falsfied belief. That is a better definition. Though all this is a sideline. The main point is that the way you bring in JTB, as if in epistemology this is simply an accepted definition of KNOWLEDGE (again, not convincing), is a kind of appeal to authority. It might be your principle. It might be a common one in some philosophy circles, but to call it the principle is just being slippery or ignorant.
What I find more convincing as supported by evidence it is most plausible the idea of God arose out of dreaded psychological impulses that is inherent in all and thus the majority of theists.
I like that the set of theists is larger than the set 'All'.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:45 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The principle is; for anything to be convincing, it has to be justified true belief [JTB], i.e. knowledge.
If only. Are you seriously arguing that people are only convinced by justified arguements with true conclusions? That is objection 1.
Objection two: When you make statements like 'The principle is:...' you are implicitly making claims of objectivity.

Some people, mostly philosophers, think that JTB is a good definition of what should be considered KNOWLEDGE. They are not arguing that it is a definition of things that are convincing. It seems like you are having a hard time acknowledging his rather obvious point that your original statement about 'convincing' was ridiculous. You could acknowledge that and move on to more important issues, but you are just adding more silliness instead of just acknowledging that.

Three, there are problems with JTB, Gettier has put forward many. I think it is further problematic because it should simply be JB, or best JB. The reason for this is because to say it is True and we know this beyond the the justification, then we do not need the justification. It implies that we can absolutely know things, which most JTB believers do not believe.
In science there is a tendency to believe the currently best justified beliefs, those supported by the most evidence. To then add that these beliefs are true goes beyond empiricisms purview. It also implies that 'truth' is a criterion we add to the justification criterion. LIke, check it is well justified. Check it is True. Which is sillly. We could check to see if it is falsified. As in knowledge is a well justified not falsfied belief. That is a better definition. Though all this is a sideline.

The main point is that the way you bring in JTB, as if in epistemology this is simply an accepted definition of KNOWLEDGE (again, not convincing), is a kind of appeal to authority. It might be your principle. It might be a common one in some philosophy circles, but to call it the principle is just being slippery or ignorant.
First note the following default which I abide to in Philosophy:

1. There is no certainty - Wittgenstein
2. Philosophy do not provide definite answers but only questions.

When I stated 'convincing' I did not insists it is absolutely convincing.
I understand the limitation raised by Gettier.

What I intended to refer JTB as 'convincing' is, as you have raised above, the most convincing which is Science with rational philosophical backing.

What is true could be merely mathematically & logically true, i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 which can be further justified with empirical testing and evidence. Thus justified true belief [JTB] (not in the absolute sense).

Principle:
-a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning.
I don't see how JTB cannot be a principle, not an absolute but nevertheless a reasonable principle.

What I find more convincing as supported by evidence it is most plausible the idea of God arose out of dreaded psychological impulses that is inherent in all and thus the majority of theists.
I like that the set of theists is larger than the set 'All'.
Nope the set of theists is a subset of ALL in this case.
ALL humans are 'infected' with the dreaded psychological impulses and the majority adopted theism while others do not.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:11 pm

Prismatic567

There are MANY reasons why a person is non-theistic [atheist]
.

A person who is non-theistic (your words) is not necessarily an atheist.
Non-theistic can also define a deist who *sees* a designing, creative God but not a personal loving God (theist).


I do deny there are non-theists [not all] who are defensive for various reasons.

Hmmm... I do not *see* this. But of course you are seeing a non-theist as an "atheist".
I can go along with what you say here. I also see many atheists as those who have come to be atheists as a defense mechanism, a way to sweep those unanswerable questions under the rug. Denying something sometimes obliterates the pain and loss we would otherwise feel albeit it only lurks far beneath the surface and can tend to come out in different ways. Aside from that, I actually intuit and might suggest that many so-called atheists are *unconscious* agnostics. They just do not see it.
That is my spin on it and it is not set in stone.


I have good reasons and have demonstrated the idea of God is a moot point and a non-starter because the idea of God is an illusion and an impossibility within empirical reality.


Why is the idea of a God an illusion considering the fact that we do see a pretty-well organized and structured Universe? That is what keeps me from being an atheist and which has me sitting on the fence as an agnostic.

So, are you saying that everything which we see is an illusion? If the Universe is an illusion, then what does that make you and me and them?


I have always given the analogy for the reality of God as a squared-circle which is an impossibility to be real.


We are not again speaking of a squared-circle though how can you know that somewhere in existence one does not exist? lol Just a question.
God may be and is a projection for many but that does not necessarily say that God is an impossibility.
But what God might you be speaking of here ~~ the one which is an impossibility to you?
Or are you saying that we simply cannot know? That would make you an agnostic in my book. :evilfun:


Why the majority believe in a God is because of the very active desperate psychological factors.

Hmmm...I do not know what the majority would come to but let us remember that there are many deists who see or sense a God because of what they can see of the Universe. They are able to take that leap into affirmation while perhaps still realizing that they cannot know much more than that.
I am not speaking of faith ~~ at least not religious faith.

Yes, much of religious belief stems from psychological factors and the inability to observe and question them.



Point is if an agnostic can totally give up the idea of God, then s/he is free of that particular mental burden.

How can I give up the question of God, albeit not the God of the many, based on what I DO see in the Universe?
As an agnostic, my mind set is that I cannot know either way so I refuse to just give in to belief. I do not let go of the plausibility, possibility though.

I do not necessarily see it as a mental burden although at times the concept of God does boggle my mind. It is, for the most part, a very juicy philosophical question to me... like looking for the Grail. lol
I would also like to *see* that I am some kind of a philosopher. lol What philosopher would give up the idea that there just may be Something about it all? It is just too juicy for me.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:50 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:Prismatic567
There are MANY reasons why a person is non-theistic [atheist]
.
A person who is non-theistic (your words) is not necessarily an atheist.
Non-theistic can also define a deist who *sees* a designing, creative God but not a personal loving God (theist).
A non-theistic is definitely an [a]theist.
I agree a non-theist could be a deist if nit-picking is required.
Generally what I intend for 'non-theistic' is it has nothing to do with a God at all in whatever forms.
I accept your point, perhaps I should state 'Non-God' to avoid misundertanding.

I do deny there are non-theists [not all] who are defensive for various reasons.

Hmmm... I do not *see* this. But of course you are seeing a non-theist as an "atheist".
I can go along with what you say here. I also see many atheists as those who have come to be atheists as a defense mechanism, a way to sweep those unanswerable questions under the rug. Denying something sometimes obliterates the pain and loss we would otherwise feel albeit it only lurks far beneath the surface and can tend to come out in different ways. Aside from that, I actually intuit and might suggest that many so-called atheists are *unconscious* agnostics. They just do not see it.
That is my spin on it and it is not set in stone.
I agree there are many types of atheists.
Where I am non-God I provided solid justifications on why God is an impossibility to be real within empirical-rational reality.

I have good reasons and have demonstrated the idea of God is a moot point and a non-starter because the idea of God is an illusion and an impossibility within empirical reality.

Why is the idea of a God an illusion considering the fact that we do see a pretty-well organized and structured Universe? That is what keeps me from being an atheist and which has me sitting on the fence as an agnostic.

There is no logical justifications to deduce from 'the Universe exists empirically' to 'God exists empirically' or non-empirically [this is an equivocation].
This reasoning is merely based on the principle of cause and effect, i.e. whatever is effect must have a cause.
Note Hume's Problem of Induction and problematic theory of cause and effect as purely psychological due to constant conjunction, habits and customs.
Philosophically there is no way one can conclude all effects are caused by a God ultimately but have to accept the concept of infinite regression.

So, are you saying that everything which we see is an illusion? If the Universe is an illusion, then what does that make you and me and them?
Yes, whatever we see in an illusion. But this has to be explained in various contexts.

By common sense and empirical Science [1], whatever is observable and justifiable is not an illusion. But there are illusion of the senses, e.g. a mirage by sight.

But a meta-level of philosophical consideration [2], what is common sense and empirical is ultimately an illusion.
Take a piece of diamond, to the senses and sense date, a piece of diamond is not an illusion, but what is more real is that piece of diamond is more factually & accurately a bundle of invisible pure carbon atoms interacting tightly.

Thus from the perspective of [2] the reality of [1] is relatively an illusion.

Still at a meta-level philosophical view, we can shift the consideration of that piece of diamond from the molecular level to the atomic, quantum, quarks level. In this when considered a higher level, the previous level is relatively an illusion.

Note Russell's thinking at a higher philosophical level with reference to an observed real table [mine],

Russell wrote:Among these surprising possibilities, doubt suggests that perhaps there is no table at all [i.e. an illusion]. Philosophy, if it cannot answer so many questions as we could wish, has at least the power of asking questions which increase the interest of the world, and show the strangeness and wonder lying just below the surface even in the commonest things of daily life.


    “Indeed, the line between perceiving and hallucinating is not as crisp as we like to think. In a sense, when we look at the world, we are hallucinating all the time. One could almost regard perception as the act of choosing the one hallucination that best fits the incoming data.”
    -Prof V-S-ramachandran
    http://abcofsuccess.com/blog/2014/12/27 ... achandran/




I suggest you do your own research and if possible exhaust this topic at the highest level of philosophical thinking, what you see as real at one level of reality is actually an illusion in another level of reality.


I have always given the analogy for the reality of God as a squared-circle which is an impossibility to be real.


We are not again speaking of a squared-circle though how can you know that somewhere in existence one does not exist? lol Just a question.
God may be and is a projection for many but that does not necessarily say that God is an impossibility.
But what God might you be speaking of here ~~ the one which is an impossibility to you?
Or are you saying that we simply cannot know? That would make you an agnostic in my book. :evilfun:
Re square-circle I am giving you an analogy to give you an idea to what I am trying to show.
Logically a square-circle is a contradiction, thus an impossibility and a non-starter. There is no way at all a square-circle can exist and it is moot to raise even the question whether it exists or not.

I have argued in this thread,
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=193474
why God is an impossibility with reference to the ultimate default of an ontological God.
All gods no matter how conceived within theism-proper MUST ultimately be an ontological God. I have provided argument to support this WHY.


Why the majority believe in a God is because of the very active desperate psychological factors.

Hmmm...I do not know what the majority would come to but let us remember that there are many deists who see or sense a God because of what they can see of the Universe. They are able to take that leap into affirmation while perhaps still realizing that they cannot know much more than that.
I am not speaking of faith ~~ at least not religious faith.
The subject if Non-God or No-God [to avoid confusion] thus the 'deism' is off topic in this case.

Yes, much of religious belief stems from psychological factors and the inability to observe and question them.
My argument is psychological factors are the sole and ultimate reason that generate the idea of God. There is no question of whether God exists as real or not.

Point is if an agnostic can totally give up the idea of God, then s/he is free of that particular mental burden.

How can I give up the question of God, albeit not the God of the many, based on what I DO see in the Universe?
As an agnostic, my mind set is that I cannot know either way so I refuse to just give in to belief. I do not let go of the plausibility, possibility though.

I do not necessarily see it as a mental burden although at times the concept of God does boggle my mind. It is, for the most part, a very juicy philosophical question to me... like looking for the Grail. lol
I would also like to *see* that I am some kind of a philosopher. lol What philosopher would give up the idea that there just may be Something about it all? It is just too juicy for me.
Why an agnostic cannot let go of the possibility is purely psychological and not epistemological, logical nor rational.
This psychological impulse is subliminal, i.e. not conscious.
I had stated if the psychological factor for the theist to believe in God is 99% then for the agnostic it is 5%. For Richard Dawkins it is 1/7 from his scale of beliefs because his basis is empirical.

My perspective is based purely on reason and philosophy that God is an impossibily.

Btw, I am not insisting you give up your agnostic view re God. I don't think it is wise to do so unless you have an alternative replacement to deal with that sliver of existential element and subliminal issue.

However you need to be aware of the consequences of your belief and being an agnostic [re God in general] do contribute moral support indirectly to theists who commit evil acts and violence when inspired by evil laden verses from a God.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Snark » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:10 am

In response to the video:

The speaker is as clueless as Prismatic567 and the author of Consciousness [not] Explained, Daniel Dennett, and for the same reason: “It is always easy to be logical. It is almost impossible to be logical to the bitter end.”
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:25 am

Arminius wrote:Prismatic's main problem is logic.

I don't think so. He's actually intelligent, but unable to be wrong, which isn't a problem unique to him in this community (unfortunately). From a certain point of view, he's doing a smashing job of finding novel ways to support a hopeless proof and that actually deserves some credit and recognition. He won't quit... that tenacity at engineering a way to never admit being wrong.... always finding a way to steer around the inevitable.

I know so much because I used to be just like him... and my family currently is and it's driving me crazy, so I'm going to stick around and observe for a while and see what I can learn. These godless threads could be a god-send to me [-o<
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 am

Uccisore wrote:Because like five people have read your proof against the existence of God and zero of them took it seriously.

Six :-"

But it's an appeal to population argument, so... :lol:

Sorry, couldn't resist :D
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Why is the idea of a God an illusion considering the fact that we do see a pretty-well organized and structured Universe? That is what keeps me from being an atheist and which has me sitting on the fence as an agnostic.

So, are you saying that everything which we see is an illusion? If the Universe is an illusion, then what does that make you and me and them?

The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Psychology

In biology, the unitary approach makes it explicit why no organism can be thought of without an environment. An organism as a skin bag is no functioning system; it may be such only together with the relevant environmental parts. The same applies to neurophysiology or “cognitive” brain research: without the rest of the world the nervous system is not a system at all; neither is the agent of the behavior a part of the body, such as the brain.

Therefore your mind isn't in your head; your head is in your mind.

There is no difference between you and the universe. What is you? Inside your brain, where are you? If that's where you are, then your body is your environment. And if that is so, then the whole universe is your environment because every bit of it is needed to make you be here. Or, we could say the whole universe is your body. Either way works, but what we cannot do is draw a distinction between the two and claim you are somehow distinct from the universe.

You are the whole universe and if that is so, then the whole thing is a living system.

Of course the universe is alive. Stars are born, they eat, they grow old and die. They have personalities, they travel and raise families of solar systems and when a black hole moves into the neighborhood, they know it.

Life evolves from one to another and stars eat the gas and make minerals. Planets eat the minerals and make dirt. Plants eat the dirt and make sugar using radiation. Animals eat plants for the sugar and release the stored starlight. The whole thing is alive and it's all dancing and doing its thing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333975
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333976
https://philpapers.org/rec/JARTTO-2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10885546
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26539155
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:32 am

Serendipper wrote:
Arminius wrote:Prismatic's main problem is logic.

I don't think so. He's actually intelligent, but unable to be wrong, which isn't a problem unique to him in this community (unfortunately). From a certain point of view, he's doing a smashing job of finding novel ways to support a hopeless proof and that actually deserves some credit and recognition. He won't quit... that tenacity at engineering a way to never admit being wrong.... always finding a way to steer around the inevitable.

I know so much because I used to be just like him... and my family currently is and it's driving me crazy, so I'm going to stick around and observe for a while and see what I can learn. These godless threads could be a god-send to me [-o<
Noted your points.

Note what I have been doing is like any typical intellectual, i.e. defend one's thesis until proven to be wrong but at the same time realizing there is no definite answer in Philosophy;

Russell wrote:Thus, to sum up our discussion of the value of philosophy;
Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather for the sake of the questions themselves;
because these questions enlarge our conception of what is possible, enrich our intellectual imagination and diminish the dogmatic assurance which closes the mind against speculation;
but above all because, through the greatness of the universe which philosophy contemplates, the mind also is rendered great, and becomes capable of that union with the universe which constitutes its highest good.

My thesis [God is an impossibility] can be proven wrong very easily, just simply produce the evidence [empirical & rational] of a God.
This is typical everywhere where existing claims are proven wrong with justifiable evidence all the time, e.g. in Science, court of law, etc. With the availability of DNA testing many court decisions were proven wrong and accused freed.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:43 am

Serendipper wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:Why is the idea of a God an illusion considering the fact that we do see a pretty-well organized and structured Universe? That is what keeps me from being an atheist and which has me sitting on the fence as an agnostic.

So, are you saying that everything which we see is an illusion? If the Universe is an illusion, then what does that make you and me and them?

The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world.
Great statement but to add,

"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which ...."

The above is heading towards an infinite regression and the final is a test of nerves and impulse control.

The theist will impulsively jump to;
"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which the creation of God as the final cause"

The non-theist [in my case] will simply accept the point;
"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which is an emergence along with the self"
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:47 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:Why is the idea of a God an illusion considering the fact that we do see a pretty-well organized and structured Universe? That is what keeps me from being an atheist and which has me sitting on the fence as an agnostic.

So, are you saying that everything which we see is an illusion? If the Universe is an illusion, then what does that make you and me and them?

The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world.
Great statement but to add,

"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which ...."

The above is heading towards an infinite regression and the final is a test of nerves and impulse control.

The theist will impulsively jump to;
"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which the creation of God as the final cause"

The non-theist [in my case] will simply accept the point;
"The outside world exists inside your head, but your head exists in the outside world -which exists inside your head - which exists in the outside world - which is an emergence along with the self"

I don't know what a "theist" would say since I try not to label, generalize, categorize and pigeonhole as it's a statistical fabrication and another strawman conveniently setup to be knocked down. Sometimes statistical categorizations have good uses, but you're engineering a means to a conclusion via confirmation bias. You're using your talents to confirm what you suspect.

Yes, you could say it's an infinite regression but that isn't the point... the point is that we can't see the point because an eye cannot look at itself. It's an infinite regression to hold a camera in front of it's own monitor. You cannot know who you are. You are the universe using the universe to look at the universe and therefore you can't see yourself. Although, trying is a good way to spend eternity (whatever eternity means).
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:13 am

Serendipper wrote:I don't know what a "theist" would say since I try not to label, generalize, categorize and pigeonhole as it's a statistical fabrication and another strawman conveniently setup to be knocked down. Sometimes statistical categorizations have good uses, but you're engineering a means to a conclusion via confirmation bias. You're using your talents to confirm what you suspect.

Yes, you could say it's an infinite regression but that isn't the point... the point is that we can't see the point because an eye cannot look at itself. It's an infinite regression to hold a camera in front of it's own monitor. You cannot know who you are. You are the universe using the universe to look at the universe and therefore you can't see yourself. Although, trying is a good way to spend eternity (whatever eternity means).
Yes the eye has evolved not to look at itself, otherwise that would be sub-optimization in facilitating survival. [note the alternative of using mirrors, camera, video, etc.]

Surely you are not extending from the above and insisting the 'knowing mind' -generally knowing external things' - cannot know itself?

Note Descartes' "I think therefore I am" [not necessary that I agree] is indication the mind which is more critical to survival can reflect on itself. There are other more effective approaches to knowing i.e. 'Know Thyself.'
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:09 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Surely you are not extending from the above and insisting the 'knowing mind' -generally knowing external things' - cannot know itself?

Yes that's exactly what I'm insisting. How can the subject and object be the same?

Note Descartes' "I think therefore I am" [not necessary that I agree] is indication the mind which is more critical to survival can reflect on itself. There are other more effective approaches to knowing i.e. 'Know Thyself.'

Sure you can reflect on yourself, but you cannot know yourself at the fundamental level. When you get to the quantum level, nothing is knowable.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:45 am

Serendipper wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Surely you are not extending from the above and insisting the 'knowing mind' -generally knowing external things' - cannot know itself?

Yes that's exactly what I'm insisting. How can the subject and object be the same?
They are different if one is stuck in dualism where the consequences is suffering and psychological torment.
The strategy to learn how to let go of such dichotomy of subject versus object and strive for complementarity. Note the following tetralemma.

    A
    -A
    Both A and -A
    Neither A nor -A


Note Descartes' "I think therefore I am" [not necessary that I agree] is indication the mind which is more critical to survival can reflect on itself. There are other more effective approaches to knowing i.e. 'Know Thyself.'

Sure you can reflect on yourself, but you cannot know yourself at the fundamental level. When you get to the quantum level, nothing is knowable.[/quote]Note how Neil Bohr use the principles of complementarity [re Yin-Yang] to deal with opposites.

What fundamental level?
There if no absolute fundamental level of the self.
Many theists do claim there is a fundamental permanent self i.e. a soul that survives physical death. This is merely an illusion. [note Hume, Parfit, Buddhism, etc].

What is pragmatic is to 'Know Thyself' up to the best possible level which is sufficient to deal with all problems that life can throw at us and humanity.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:59 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:How can the subject and object be the same?
They are different if one is stuck in dualism where the consequences is suffering and psychological torment.
The strategy to learn how to let go of such dichotomy of subject versus object and strive for complementarity. Note the following tetralemma.

    A
    -A
    Both A and -A
    Neither A nor -A

The last 2 can't exist.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with having a subject and object being the same entity.

What fundamental level?

Exactly. You can't find it because the universe cannot look at itself.

There is no absolute fundamental level of the self.

Evidence?

Many theists do claim there is blah blah

I don't care what other people claim.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:26 am

Serendipper wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:How can the subject and object be the same?
They are different if one is stuck in dualism where the consequences is suffering and psychological torment.
The strategy to learn how to let go of such dichotomy of subject versus object and strive for complementarity. Note the following tetralemma.

    A
    -A
    Both A and -A
    Neither A nor -A

The last 2 can't exist.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with having a subject and object being the same entity.
For you the last 2 cannot exists because you are stuck with dualism.
The above tetralemma works on the basis of toggling between perspectives thus not entangled within a logical contradiction.

The above transcend and reconcile the dichotomy of subject versus object.

What fundamental level?

Exactly. You can't find it because the universe cannot look at itself.
'Look at itself'.
You are thinking too narrowly and anthropomorphizing.

There is no absolute fundamental level of the self.

Evidence?
If 'none' logically there is no evidence.
To understand read Hume, Parfit, Buddhism, Kant and others.

Bundle theory, originated by the 18th century Scottish philosopher David Hume, is the ontological theory about objecthood in which an object consists only of a collection (bundle) of properties, relations or tropes.

According to bundle theory, an object consists of its properties and nothing more: thus neither can there be an object without properties nor can one even conceive of such an object; for example, bundle theory claims that thinking of an apple compels one also to think of its color, its shape, the fact that it is a kind of fruit, its cells, its taste, or at least one other of its properties. Thus, the theory asserts that the apple is no more than the collection of its properties.
In particular, there is no substance in which the properties are inherent
.

Many theists do claim there is blah blah

I don't care what other people claim.[/quote]
What if a group claimed you have raped and murder a girl?

In general, present your arguments to justify whatever your stance.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:01 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Advaita Vedanta is basically monotheism [broadest sense] and pantheistic, I'd gradually progressed to panentheism then to non-theism. I had been doing meditation for >30 years changing from Hindu-based to one adapted from Buddhism.

In the last 3 years I spent full time on Islam, previous 3 years full time on Kant, previous 2 years full time on Buddhism, prior to that covered the philosophies all the popular Western philosophers. Amidst the above I had been voraciously vacuuming all knowledge from other relevant fields.

What was it that convinced you there is no Brahman?
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:24 am

Serendipper wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Advaita Vedanta is basically monotheism [broadest sense] and pantheistic, I'd gradually progressed to panentheism then to non-theism. I had been doing meditation for >30 years changing from Hindu-based to one adapted from Buddhism.

In the last 3 years I spent full time on Islam, previous 3 years full time on Kant, previous 2 years full time on Buddhism, prior to that covered the philosophies all the popular Western philosophers. Amidst the above I had been voraciously vacuuming all knowledge from other relevant fields.

What was it that convinced you there is no Brahman?


Reification!
meaning;
- to convert into or regard as a concrete thing:
-to reify a concept or idea [philosophical].


The instinctual reification impulse [subconscious] has evolutionary and survival values which is inherited from our evolutionary ancestors from billion of years ago. Thus the reification is so primal, instinctual and spontaneous at the subliminal [subconscious] level.
Such reification comes in degrees from low to high.

The Abrahamic believers has a high degree of propensity to reify, i.e. reifying the idea of God as 'something' that exists within empirical-rational reality.
The pantheists who believe in Brahman also has the tendency to reify but that is in very low degrees.

When a person is in bondage to the reification impulse without understanding and mindful of it tentacles, that person is not totally free. This is why some theists will kill when their God is criticized and some will get irritated, offensive, snarky and condemned those who critique the idea of God [note personal experiences here].

Note the tetralemma of Buddhism I mentioned above, it represent total freedom, i.e.

    A - reifying
    Not-A - non-reifying
    Both A and Not-A - both reifying and non-refying
    Neither A nor Not-A - total freedom from the above

Both refying and non-reifying has it pros and cons and thus we need them both, but at some time we have to be detached from them, i.e. emptiness or nothingness.
Note Bruce Lee's 'fighting without fighting' or Wu Wei - action without action, etc.

Because the idea of Brahman still has the minutest remnants of reification I gave it up when I understoodd and realized the truth of non-reification within Buddhism's view and practice.

Note the reification impulse is so strong within the psyche that even many Buddhists also reify that 'something', e.g. Buddha Nature, Store Consciousness, Alan Watts' 'God' etc. but these reifications are not as 'concrete' as the concretizing the idea of God of the theists.

Note, don't attribute 'nihilism' or 'solipism' to me.
In my case I am 'entangled' and interact with reality in one perspective while detached [not disentangled] in another perspective.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:How can the subject and object be the same?
They are different if one is stuck in dualism where the consequences is suffering and psychological torment.
The strategy to learn how to let go of such dichotomy of subject versus object and strive for complementarity. Note the following tetralemma.

    A
    -A
    Both A and -A
    Neither A nor -A

For you the last 2 cannot exists because you are stuck with dualism.
The above tetralemma works on the basis of toggling between perspectives thus not entangled within a logical contradiction.

The above transcend and reconcile the dichotomy of subject versus object.


    The light is on
    The light is not on
    The light is on and not on
    The light is neither on nor not on

The only way a light can be on and not on is if there are two lights.

One way that a light can be neither on nor not on is if the light did not exist, or zero lights.

    One side is heads
    One side is not heads
    One side is both heads and not heads
    One side is neither heads nor not heads

One side is neither heads nor tails???

The only way that works is to split perspectives and realize that there is no coin, but if we do that, then 1,2,and 3 fail because if there is no coin, then one side of nothing cannot be heads.

This exercise does not help me "realize" anything since I already know "things" do not exist and yet I still have trouble seeing the value in the tetralemma.

This guy made an interpretation: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthr ... Tetralemma

    AKEMI:Tomatoes are delicious.
    BENJI: I'd rather eat shit than tomatoes.
    CHIKO: Raw tomatoes make me gag, but pizza without tomato sauce is yeuch.
    DAI: Tomatoes? I could take them or leave them.

    GORO: Trump is the devil.
    HIRO: Trump is our saviour.
    IZUMI: Trump has his good points and his bad points.
    JUNDO: I look at Trump and I see nothing bad and nothing good.

I have read that thread, slept on it, and my conclusion is the tetralemma should be abandoned in favor of some sensible analogies to illustrate that things do not exist.

Bundle theory, originated by the 18th century Scottish philosopher David Hume, is the ontological theory about objecthood in which an object consists only of a collection (bundle) of properties, relations or tropes.

According to bundle theory, an object consists of its properties and nothing more: thus neither can there be an object without properties nor can one even conceive of such an object; for example, bundle theory claims that thinking of an apple compels one also to think of its color, its shape, the fact that it is a kind of fruit, its cells, its taste, or at least one other of its properties. Thus, the theory asserts that the apple is no more than the collection of its properties.
In particular, there is no substance in which the properties are inherent
.

I don't have any problem with objects being a collection of properties, but there must be a subject to have an object and endow those properties.

Many theists do claim there is blah blah

I don't care what other people claim.

What if a group claimed you have raped and murder a girl?

I would hope that extraordinary claims warrant extraordinary evidence.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:38 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:What was it that convinced you there is no Brahman?


Reification!

There must be at least one thing. The universe is the only atom, the a-tomos, the non-cuttable.

Reification is thingification, which is making a thing out of no thing, so have you considered that you've made a thing out of a someone (brahman)? Or maybe I should ask what you think the universe is, where it came from, what is fundamental reality if not brahman?

The Abrahamic believers has a high degree of propensity to reify, i.e. reifying the idea of God as 'something' that exists within empirical-rational reality.
The pantheists who believe in Brahman also has the tendency to reify but that is in very low degrees.

This seems more like personification rather than reification, but let's just forget the Abrahamic god just like we have forgotten Zeus. I want to know if the universe is a bunch of sterile junk or if it is indeed alive.

Note Bruce Lee's 'fighting without fighting' or Wu Wei - action without action, etc.

Yes because water does not fight, it yields.

Because the idea of Brahman still has the minutest remnants of reification I gave it up when I understoodd and realized the truth of non-reification within Buddhism's view and practice.

I still think the word you're looking for is personification. It's more survivally advantageous to assume there is a tiger making the grass move than the wind.

Note the reification impulse is so strong within the psyche that even many Buddhists also reify that 'something', e.g. Buddha Nature, Store Consciousness, Alan Watts' 'God' etc. but these reifications are not as 'concrete' as the concretizing the idea of God of the theists.

Yes, I'm confident all the religions have been perverted. Alan Watts believed in brahman. He described himself as a mix of buddhism and hinduism. He said you can either compliment the universe or you can seek to put it down.

Note, don't attribute 'nihilism' or 'solipism' to me.

It's not instinctual for me to label people.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:40 am

Serendipper wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
Serendipper wrote:What was it that convinced you there is no Brahman?


Reification!

There must be at least one thing. The universe is the only atom, the a-tomos, the non-cuttable.

Reification is thingification, which is making a thing out of no thing, so have you considered that you've made a thing out of a someone (brahman)? Or maybe I should ask what you think the universe is, where it came from, what is fundamental reality if not brahman?
To paraphrase Kant, the Universe came from "you" and collectively with humanity. It is a long story to explain, so I won't go into that.
Note my thread on 'You Are a Co-Creator of Reality"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193726

The principle of causation is inherent and made instinctual in human beings.
Thus for everything that is 'effect', there must be a 'cause' or 'fundamental essence'.
The Hindu traced the ultimate essence to Brahman, i.e. the reification of that essence. It is not personification or anthropomorphization.
When science traced the fundamental of material to energy long ago, the Hindus related Brahman with 'energy' i.e. which is pervasive within reality.
Now that Science has dug deeper into quarks, then Brahman must something like quarks or whatever that is the final particle.

That 'there must be something rather than nothing' is purely a psychological issue that manifest into psycho-linguistic, i.e. ending with the reification of Brahman.

What is critical is we need to understand and acknowledge such a psychological state [use it optimally], but we should not be a slave to it to the extreme of killing in the name of God.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:59 am

Prismatic567 wrote:To paraphrase Kant, the Universe came from "you" and collectively with humanity. It is a long story to explain, so I won't go into that.
Note my thread on 'You Are a Co-Creator of Reality"
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=193726

The principle of causation is inherent and made instinctual in human beings.
Thus for everything that is 'effect', there must be a 'cause' or 'fundamental essence'.
The Hindu traced the ultimate essence to Brahman, i.e. the reification of that essence. It is not personification or anthropomorphization.
When science traced the fundamental of material to energy long ago, the Hindus related Brahman with 'energy' i.e. which is pervasive within reality.
Now that Science has dug deeper into quarks, then Brahman must something like quarks or whatever that is the final particle.

That 'there must be something rather than nothing' is purely a psychological issue that manifest into psycho-linguistic, i.e. ending with the reification of Brahman.

What is critical is we need to understand and acknowledge such a psychological state [use it optimally], but we should not be a slave to it to the extreme of killing in the name of God.


Then how do you reconcile the fact that I am alive and conscious and so are you and lots of other lifeforms if the universe itself does not also contain that property?

You would have to believe that dumb-junk arranged in specific combinations resulted in smart people.

Hydrogen - a colorless, odorless gas that, given enough time, turns into people!

That doesn't seem silly? So I don't understand how you could discard the Brahman concept which so nicely explains that dilemma.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:41 am

Serendipper wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:To paraphrase Kant, the Universe came from "you" and collectively with humanity. It is a long story to explain, so I won't go into that.
Note my thread on 'You Are a Co-Creator of Reality"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193726

The principle of causation is inherent and made instinctual in human beings.
Thus for everything that is 'effect', there must be a 'cause' or 'fundamental essence'.
The Hindu traced the ultimate essence to Brahman, i.e. the reification of that essence. It is not personification or anthropomorphization.
When science traced the fundamental of material to energy long ago, the Hindus related Brahman with 'energy' i.e. which is pervasive within reality.
Now that Science has dug deeper into quarks, then Brahman must something like quarks or whatever that is the final particle.

That 'there must be something rather than nothing' is purely a psychological issue that manifest into psycho-linguistic, i.e. ending with the reification of Brahman.

What is critical is we need to understand and acknowledge such a psychological state [use it optimally], but we should not be a slave to it to the extreme of killing in the name of God.

Then how do you reconcile the fact that I am alive and conscious and so are you and lots of other lifeforms if the universe itself does not also contain that property?
What are the consequences to you if you ignore that 'fact' i.e. the universe is alive like you and me?

If you reflect deeply, the only consequence is 'you' will feel uneasy with it, i.e. psychologically while reality will go on as it does.
You are indeed psychologically compelled [subliminally] to believe it.
But if you understand the psychological mechanism behind such a belief and is able to dissolve it, the only thing is a change in your psychological state, a freer one on top of that.

Meanwhile it is all the same in reality, i.e. you will eat, sleep, work, etc. but with one less burden, i.e. Chop Wood Carry Water.
http://www.zendirt.com/chop-wood-carry-water/59/

You would have to believe that dumb-junk arranged in specific combinations resulted in smart people.

Hydrogen - a colorless, odorless gas that, given enough time, turns into people!

That doesn't seem silly? So I don't understand how you could discard the Brahman concept which so nicely explains that dilemma.
Note my explanation above, discarding the Brahman concept is based on refined psychological introspection and practices to develop the relevant state of mind to sustain it.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: No Evidence For God, Why Still Believe?

Postby Serendipper » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:00 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:What are the consequences to you if you ignore that 'fact' i.e. the universe is alive like you and me?

The consequence is that I will need to figure out how life came from nonlife.



At 16:50, he says:

"Now all this is perfectly idiotic. If you would think that the idea of the universe as being the creation of a benevolent old gentleman, although he's not so benevolent he takes a sort of "this hurts me more than it hurts you" sort of attitude... uh, you can have that on the one hand and if that becomes uncomfortable, you can exchange it for its opposite: the idea that the ultimate reality doesn't have any intelligence at all. At least that gets rid of the ole bogie in the sky, but in exchange for a picture of the world that is completely stupid. Now these ideas don't make any sense... especially the last one.... because you cannot get an intelligent organism, such as a human being, out of an unintelligent universe."

How do you suppose intelligent organisms came from an unintelligent universe?

If you reflect deeply, the only consequence is 'you' will feel uneasy with it, i.e. psychologically while reality will go on as it does.
You are indeed psychologically compelled [subliminally] to believe it.

I'm psychologically compelled to believe 1+1=2 and therefore that should be reason to dismiss it?

Meanwhile it is all the same in reality, i.e. you will eat, sleep, work, etc. but with one less burden, i.e. Chop Wood Carry Water.

You have the extra burden of deciding how life came from nonlife. I have one less burden than you do.

You would have to believe that dumb-junk arranged in specific combinations resulted in smart people.

Hydrogen - a colorless, odorless gas that, given enough time, turns into people!

That doesn't seem silly? So I don't understand how you could discard the Brahman concept which so nicely explains that dilemma.
Note my explanation above, discarding the Brahman concept is based on refined psychological introspection and practices to develop the relevant state of mind to sustain it.

All you've done is avoid the question. Why would you abandon a sensible theory of the universe for one that doesn't make any sense? So far the only reason you have given me is that the sensible solution was too sensible and because it was sensible, it was therefore wrong.
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