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Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:06 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Zero_Sum wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:All I see is random existence fluctuating everywhere and with chaotic random manifestations of being not only is purpose redundant but also it isn't even necessary. So yes, I am largely anti teleological.

If that is what you see, how could you even find out or know that you are largely anti-teleological? That perception that is all noise, no signal. How do you even decide what is you, let alone what qualities that you really has?

There is of course uncertainty everywhere but the difference between me and others is that I don't attribute that to an absentee God.
I am not sure how that responds to what I wrote. If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:10 pm
by Ierrellus
Zero,
No evolutionary teleology? Every stem cell in your body "knows" what organ it will produce. This is hard determinism on a biological level. It is evidence that DNA construction of organisms contains its own deterministic purposes.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:46 pm
by Zero_Sum
Karpel Tunnel wrote: If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?


Whether it's correct or not there has to be some level of pragmatism concerning day to day survival.

I will never say all of human survival or existence is rational, far from it.

Be as that they may be for me that is far more sufficient in saying than some make believe nonexistent God deity.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:50 pm
by Zero_Sum
Ierrellus wrote:Zero,
No evolutionary teleology? Every stem cell in your body "knows" what organ it will produce. This is hard determinism on a biological level. It is evidence that DNA construction of organisms contains its own deterministic purposes.

Most of evolutionary theory is incomplete and imperfect where I'm not even comfortable speaking about any of that in absolute terms. It is the best explanation thus far however and I am a determinist.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:57 am
by Serendipper
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Haha if you can't trust yourself, can you trust your mistrust of yourself? If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust anything. I trust myself knowing I will be right and wrong sometimes because I have no other choice but to trust myself. Nothing is certain, but I still have to trust my statistical assessment.

There is no teleology because there would be no point if there were. The plan is to not have a plan.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:10 am
by Zero_Sum
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Haha if you can't trust yourself, can you trust your mistrust of yourself? If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust anything. I trust myself knowing I will be right and wrong sometimes because I have no other choice but to trust myself. Nothing is certain, but I still have to trust my statistical assessment.

There is no teleology because there would be no point if there were. The plan is to not have a plan.

Yeah, basically my own point also.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:43 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Haha if you can't trust yourself, can you trust your mistrust of yourself? If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust anything. I trust myself knowing I will be right and wrong sometimes because I have no other choice but to trust myself. Nothing is certain, but I still have to trust my statistical assessment.

There is no teleology because there would be no point if there were. The plan is to not have a plan.
Sure, and as a practical heuristic I take the same stance. If I can't trust myself, then....well, it's game over. This is oversimplified, since we both, presumably, calibrate, notice where we have biases and weaknesses and try to fix these, but sure. But I also think there is some order outside. If I am in a sea of just noise and no signals, well, I am fucked, regardless of how much I trust myself.

All I see is random existence fluctuating everywhere and with chaotic random manifestations of being
This does not allow for learning. And even if present, would not be evidence of planning or not. Could be a frivolous deity.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am
by Serendipper
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Haha if you can't trust yourself, can you trust your mistrust of yourself? If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust anything. I trust myself knowing I will be right and wrong sometimes because I have no other choice but to trust myself. Nothing is certain, but I still have to trust my statistical assessment.

There is no teleology because there would be no point if there were. The plan is to not have a plan.
Sure, and as a practical heuristic I take the same stance. If I can't trust myself, then....well, it's game over. This is oversimplified, since we both, presumably, calibrate, notice where we have biases and weaknesses and try to fix these, but sure. But I also think there is some order outside. If I am in a sea of just noise and no signals, well, I am fucked, regardless of how much I trust myself.

All I see is random existence fluctuating everywhere and with chaotic random manifestations of being
This does not allow for learning. And even if present, would not be evidence of planning or not. Could be a frivolous deity.

What are we trying to discover here? If you desire to create a robot that can walk and you've no idea how, then the best strategy is to create an evolutionary algorithm to let the robot learn what you have no idea how to teach. In the design of the algorithm, there can be no plan because you cannot presume you know how a robot should execute commands in the proper order and timing to produce a stable gait. So the idea is to not make any assumptions and let "nature" take it's course.

You have to let what works be the test for what is right and not what you dictate to be right from the beginning. If you could dictate what is right from the beginning, then there would be no point in the evolution. If you knew how to program a robot to walk, then just program it; no need for algorithmic learning.

You see?

It's not that the universe is a chaotic and random mess, but a dark place where we must build our own eyes and fumble around learning as we go. If it could have been understood from the beginning, then there would be no point to any of this. Life is the discovery of the unknown; not rediscovering what is already known.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:34 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Serendipper wrote:What are we trying to discover here? If you desire to create a robot that can walk and you've no idea how, then the best strategy is to create an evolutionary algorithm to let the robot learn what you have no idea how to teach. In the design of the algorithm, there can be no plan because you cannot presume you know how a robot should execute commands in the proper order and timing to produce a stable gait. So the idea is to not make any assumptions and let "nature" take it's course.

You have to let what works be the test for what is right and not what you dictate to be right from the beginning. If you could dictate what is right from the beginning, then there would be no point in the evolution. If you knew how to program a robot to walk, then just program it; no need for algorithmic learning.

You see?

It's not that the universe is a chaotic and random mess, but a dark place where we must build our own eyes and fumble around learning as we go. If it could have been understood from the beginning, then there would be no point to any of this. Life is the discovery of the unknown; not rediscovering what is already known.
Sure, and the robot will learn because of regularities - gravity, objects no being able to occupy the same space, downhills causing this set of issues, uphillls these, and so on. The robot will also be perceiving its environment and not just getting random perceptions.

Put a robot in 'random existence fluctuating everywhere and with chaotic random manifestations of being'
and it will not learn how to get anywhere or really, it might get somewhere, but it will not be able to learn how to do this. Like Skinner's superstitious pidgeons the robot might keep trying something, but the results would be random.

Perhaps we are talking past each other somehow.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:03 pm
by Zero_Sum
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:If there is uncertainty everywhere how do you even have self-knowledge? For example regarding your own anti-teleological belief?

Haha if you can't trust yourself, can you trust your mistrust of yourself? If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust anything. I trust myself knowing I will be right and wrong sometimes because I have no other choice but to trust myself. Nothing is certain, but I still have to trust my statistical assessment.

There is no teleology because there would be no point if there were. The plan is to not have a plan.
Sure, and as a practical heuristic I take the same stance. If I can't trust myself, then....well, it's game over. This is oversimplified, since we both, presumably, calibrate, notice where we have biases and weaknesses and try to fix these, but sure. But I also think there is some order outside. If I am in a sea of just noise and no signals, well, I am fucked, regardless of how much I trust myself.

All I see is random existence fluctuating everywhere and with chaotic random manifestations of being
This does not allow for learning. And even if present, would not be evidence of planning or not. Could be a frivolous deity.


Any kind of frivolous, indifferent, or even imperfect God would not be worth worshipping. What's that saying again, if God existed we would have to find a way to kill him.

There's actually much to learn and gain from chaos.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:22 pm
by Ierrellus
Zero_Sum wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Zero,
No evolutionary teleology? Every stem cell in your body "knows" what organ it will produce. This is hard determinism on a biological level. It is evidence that DNA construction of organisms contains its own deterministic purposes.

Most of evolutionary theory is incomplete and imperfect where I'm not even comfortable speaking about any of that in absolute terms. It is the best explanation thus far however and I am a determinist.

Could it be that we project genetic determinism onto the cosmos as our way of understanding the universe we inhabit?

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:29 pm
by Zero_Sum
Ierrellus wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Zero,
No evolutionary teleology? Every stem cell in your body "knows" what organ it will produce. This is hard determinism on a biological level. It is evidence that DNA construction of organisms contains its own deterministic purposes.

Most of evolutionary theory is incomplete and imperfect where I'm not even comfortable speaking about any of that in absolute terms. It is the best explanation thus far however and I am a determinist.

Could it be that we project genetic determinism onto the cosmos as our way of understanding the universe we inhabit?

Sure, I don't see why not.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:34 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Zero_Sum wrote:
There's actually much to learn and gain from chaos.

Says the nationial socialist, fascist autocrat. Well, you're an interesting mix. I might buy my robots from someone else, however, if I didn't dislike robots.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:07 am
by Zero_Sum
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
There's actually much to learn and gain from chaos.

Says the nationial socialist, fascist autocrat. Well, you're an interesting mix. I might buy my robots from someone else, however, if I didn't dislike robots.

If you wish to dismiss my political views I always welcome debate. Interesting? Well, I take that as a compliment. Robots? Where did that come from?

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:44 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Zero_Sum wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
There's actually much to learn and gain from chaos.

Says the nationial socialist, fascist autocrat. Well, you're an interesting mix. I might buy my robots from someone else, however, if I didn't dislike robots.

If you wish to dismiss my political views I always welcome debate. Interesting? Well, I take that as a compliment. Robots? Where did that come from?

No, I don't want to dismiss them. Just finding you contradictory. But shit, I mixed you up with Serendipity. We had an exchange about robots. But still: National socialist autocrat....who thinks there is much to gain from chaos. That's not a usual combination. Do you understand why I might react that way? I can go into more detail but I thought it would be obvious. How does that combination of appreciation of chaos go with governmental forms that, at least to me, seem to have always tried to reduce chaos or what it considered chaos, though in doing this it often creates chaos.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:53 am
by Zero_Sum
Karpel Tunnel wrote:No, I don't want to dismiss them. Just finding you contradictory. But shit, I mixed you up with Serendipity. We had an exchange about robots. But still: National socialist autocrat....who thinks there is much to gain from chaos. That's not a usual combination. Do you understand why I might react that way? I can go into more detail but I thought it would be obvious. How does that combination of appreciation of chaos go with governmental forms that, at least to me, seem to have always tried to reduce chaos or what it considered chaos, though in doing this it often creates chaos.


"Ordo Ab Chao", order out of chaos. For me a higher order will come out of the current world of chaos, a new social order. To be sure the elites controlling the world believe this also but for me I despise their notion of social order supplanting it with my own variation. I will not be happy until my rendition of social order is realized in one form or another. All that oppose my variation of social order are enemies against it.

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:36 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Zero_Sum wrote: "Ordo Ab Chao", order out of chaos. For me a higher order will come out of the current world of chaos, a new social order. To be sure the elites controlling the world believe this also but for me I despise their notion of social order supplanting it with my own variation. I will not be happy until my rendition of social order is realized in one form or another. All that oppose my variation of social order are enemies against it.
So once your order is in place, then how is chaos viewed? How will those in your order view chaos? And what will be defined as chaos?

Re: End of the World

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:22 am
by Zero_Sum
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote: "Ordo Ab Chao", order out of chaos. For me a higher order will come out of the current world of chaos, a new social order. To be sure the elites controlling the world believe this also but for me I despise their notion of social order supplanting it with my own variation. I will not be happy until my rendition of social order is realized in one form or another. All that oppose my variation of social order are enemies against it.
So once your order is in place, then how is chaos viewed? How will those in your order view chaos? And what will be defined as chaos?

Chaos is merely opportunity to destroy this world order in the creation of another one. It is a means to an end or goal.

If this world order destroys all life on the planet through the chaos where revolution cannot be realized I can die calmly knowing this wasteland or abomination is gone forever. I'd rather see the entire planet eradicated of all life than to live the rest of my life under this current world order and for it to be the future of humanity. I'd rather see the world turned to ash. Now, that's dedication to an ideal you won't find from others. :lol: