End of the World

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End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:54 pm

A recent t.v. program showed a mile long patch of plastic debris floating in the Pacific Ocean.
There are over 7 billion people living on a globe that has limited natural resources.
"This is the way the world ends==
Not with a bang, but a whimper." --T. S. Eliot
How do you think the world will end? Or d0 you see the concern as just some religious or political propaganda?
Will science save us from ourselves? Can religion?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:29 pm

Please forgive my paraphrase of Eliot if it's inaccurate. I can't seem to locate my copy of "The Waste Land".
This OP is probably due to the fact that I am living out my last years and am concerned about the future welfare of my children and grandchildren.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: End of the World

Postby Meno_ » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:23 pm

Ierrellus wrote:A recent t.v. program showed a mile long patch of plastic debris floating in the Pacific Ocean.
There are over 7 billion people living on a globe that has limited natural resources.
"This is the way the world ends==
Not with a bang, but a whimper." --T. S. Eliot
How do you think the world will end? Or d0 you see the concern as just some religious or political propaganda?
Will science save us from ourselves? Can religion?



Irrellus,

I think science and God will be shown to manifest a United Field , fairly soon.
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Re: End of the World

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:55 pm

God will be shown to manifest

This would need to happen empirically first for science to ally.
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Re: End of the World

Postby James S Saint » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:59 pm

Meno_ wrote:I think science and God will be shown to manifest a United Field , fairly soon.

???
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: End of the World

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:22 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Please forgive my paraphrase of Eliot if it's inaccurate. I can't seem to locate my copy of "The Waste Land".
This OP is probably due to the fact that I am living out my last years and am concerned about the future welfare of my children and grandchildren.


Ierrellus ... what a delightful post ... warms the heart of a fellow old man with children and grandchildren. I say this despite the fact my children and grandchildren either hate me or don't know me. :-)

You remind me of Jordan Petersen ... you express some of the veiled "Truth" in the Bible myths.

In this case you remind me of the myth of Moses ... who so badly wanted to see the "promised land" ... yet ... never did ... according to the myth. :-)

While we are undeniably in the winter of our lives we may yet 'see' the warmth and beauty of the best 'spring' ever.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:20 pm

Meno,
That is my hope also.
Thanks, James, Wendy and Tom.
I am no Moses. Are we in the last daze of Earth? Pun intended.

Fire and Ice
Some say the world will end in fire.
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire;
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
early Robert Frost

I would describe the ice as neglect, not hate.
The way the world ends, if the current daze is any indication, is that the haves will be blinded by gluttony and waste while the have nots will die in wars of envy. It will take a union of religious and scientific thought to dissuade the world's masses from their favorite forms of suicide.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: End of the World

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:36 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I am no Moses.


I plead guilty again :-) ... of the crime of not articulating my thoughts very well.

The character Moses symbolizes all aging people ... perhaps representing a biological fact ... a biological pattern.

As brother death's visit approaches, seems logical and rational that we ... us older folk ... would yearn to see the "promised land" before our long sleep.

Of course, the "promised land" is not the same for all old people ... for some it's unfulfilled ambitions, for some it's irreconcilable relationships, for some it's the hope of a better life/world for their children and grandchildren and so on.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:53 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I am no Moses.


I plead guilty again :-) ... of the crime of not articulating my thoughts very well.

The character Moses symbolizes all aging people ... perhaps representing a biological fact ... a biological pattern.

As brother death's visit approaches, seems logical and rational that we ... us older folk ... would yearn to see the "promised land" before our long sleep.

Of course, the "promised land" is not the same for all old people ... for some it's unfulfilled ambitions, for some it's irreconcilable relationships, for some it's the hope of a better life/world for their children and grandchildren and so on.

The Moses analogy would be appropriate for me if I could foresee a promised land. All I have in that respect is lament for the foibles of this current world. I do have hopes that the future of the world of thought will move into those lines of scientific and religious compatibility as Meno suggests. A spiritual awakening in the world is much to be desired--an awakening that is really concerned with the destiny of humans on this given planet,
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: End of the World

Postby Arminius » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:36 pm

Ierrellus wrote:End of the World.

A recent t.v. program showed a mile long patch of plastic debris floating in the Pacific Ocean.
There are over 7 billion people living on a globe that has limited natural resources.
"This is the way the world ends==
Not with a bang, but a whimper." --T. S. Eliot
How do you think the world will end? Or d0 you see the concern as just some religious or political propaganda?
Will science save us from ourselves? Can religion?

The ecological catastrophe is merely one of some more options for the end of humans and many other living creatures.
Other options are, for instance, military catastrophes, technical/scientifical research catastrophes, natural catastrophes.

But all these catastophes will not mean the "end of the world" and not mean the end of this planet either; but they will just mean huge catastrophes for humans and many other living creatures.
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Re: End of the World

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:43 pm

The tricky thing here is that it all depends on how you construe the relationship between "I" and "the world". From either a religious or nonreligious point of view.

If you don't believe in God then "the world" ends for "I" at the grave. Unless of course it doesn't. But who among us [here and now] can pin this down?

If you do believe in God then even if "the world" [planet earth] is swallowed up by the Sun billions of years from now, "I" [as soul] is blissfully ensconced in another "world": the Kingdom of God.

Either that writhing in agony in Hell.

Unless of course Purgatory is also an actual destination.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: End of the World

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:11 am

This OP has the potential to evolve into an astronomical discovery.

1) Espousing a belief in God is peripheral ... our biology is hard wired to act out a belief in God.

2) Ierrellus ... if you could 'see' the promised land the Moses analogy would not work ... he never saw the promised land.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: End of the World

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:45 am

Ierrellus wrote:Will science save us from ourselves?

Science will not save us. It is more likely that it will do the opposite.

Ierrellus wrote:Can religion?

Religion is likely more capable of saving us than science is. How likely is it? Which kind of religion would or should it have to be? Would or should this religilion be a theistic one? If yes: Would or should it be a religion of pantheism (is already very close to atheism), of monotheism, of polytheism. If no: Would it or should it be a primitve religion, at least a heathenish religion?

If the demographic, economic and political development we have been experiencing for a pretty long time will go on, then we will get a syncretistic religion or just the islamic religion which is a monotheistic religion and currently increasing the most. This is possible and probable, but not what I would like to have.

Arminius wrote:Related to the global population, the number of the unaffiliated decreases and will further on decrease, whereas the number of the muslims increase and will further on increase.

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Re: End of the World

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:01 am

Just returned from my morning walk along the beach(ocean) ... an interesting vista this morning ... both physical and ephemeral.

First the physical ... the surface of the large body of water ... the visible ocean ... was glass like ... so smooth. Yet as the incoming tide approached the shore, large waves formed and splashed up violently onto the shore ... almost reaching the extremity ... the outer boundaries of high tide marked by dampness in the sand and a line of small sea shells.

The ephemeral ... my conclusion ... right or wrong:

Big "C" consciousness is splashing vigorously on to the shores of small "c" consciousness(human consciousness) today!

Some thoughts that popped into my mind ... in no particular order:

1) Since oral language emerged people have used stories, myths, legends, parables and so on ... to plug the holes of the "unknown". The "unknown" was scary way back then and truth be told, remains scary today. Who faces death peacefully ... without their consciousness being 'numb' ... the consequence of chemical cocktails.

2) The stories, parables, myths etc drifted together and formed clusters. The clusters drifted together to form religions ... the Bible being a significant single instance of a large cluster of such stories etc.

3) Religions served a dual purpose ... plugged the holes of the "unknown" and provided a beacon for the forward march of humanity into expanded consciousness. Religions have not been destroyed ... they have simply moved beyond their shelf life expiry date. The human family is moving beyond religion(s) ... like iit or not ... to a new paradigm where heiarchy, dogma, institutions and rituals are no longer useful. The transition is self evidently very painful.

4) The transition for Chinese people is much easier since they largely avoided the paradigm of heiarchy, institution, dogma and rituals of religion. 18th century European intellectuals ... the Liebniz crowd ... recognized this fact. They couldn't understand how such a sophisticated civilization could emerge without religion. Though the Chinese have always had religion ... Chinese people over the age of 8 have long recognized the expression "Dao De" ... literally translated ... "The Way ... Virtue" . Seems the Chinese religion has always been more focused on the built in biological model ... more on this later.

5) Some thoughts concerning parables. Parables are a powerful communication device ... employing images of every day life to explain the "unknown". For example, parables involving sheep were employed extensively 2,000+ years ago simply because most of the lives of the people of the day included sheep. Parables involving sheep fall on deaf ears today for the same reason ... few peoples day to day lives involve sheep. Though, for people like myself, who have observed sheep behavior in near normal circumstances ... flocks, shepherds and open range ... the 2,000+ year old parables retain their luster.

6) Emerging technologies provide new opportunities for meaningful parables. For example, the images of firmware - software combinations are familiar to a very large community of peoples. Let's use the firmware-software model as a parable/metaphor/analogy for the human being. I mentioned in an earlier post that the human biology is hard wired to act as though God existed ... espousing belief or non-belief is peripheral.

7) Human biology is a firmware-software combination. Our biology has built in firewalls that are akin to our immune system ... in both purpose and utility. Like our immune system ... our built in firewalls are breached frequently ... a virus in the case of our immune system ... a false belief in the case of our "firewalls".

8) NT ... when 2 or more are gathered in my name ... I'll be there.

9) Post modernist resurrection of 8) without the religious garb is labelled "Collective Wisdom".

We know that people in groups can consciously generate collective wisdom and that individuals can cultivate their capacity to receive, to hear and to amplify wisdom in the communities they are called to serve. By coming together in groups to consciously generate collective wisdom, we believe we have the potential to heal conflicts that seem impossible to heal; embrace with compassion polarities and paradoxes that tear the fabric of our psyches and communities; and cultivate our capacities to love and forgive in groups splintered and polarized. We come together as artists, educators, mystics, practical idealists, scholars, activists, and especially pragmatists, bringing forward some of our own light and seeking to do together what is not possible alone.


http://www.wisdompage.com/GroupWisdom.html

PS ... couldn't get rid of the 'smiley' ... hmmm!
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Re: End of the World

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:20 am

Technology may yet overcome the nihilistic and apocaliptic doom day. Even Sofia said she wants family and feelings.
It can go either way for Mankind, the world, our universe, if we recognise what the end really is, not only a cliche abused mantra-the beginning , but the eternity which can be here in people's hearts, mind and soul-or can be.

This choice between universal and singular manifestations of all the dualities, despite their appearance of transcendence, is basically an imminence of astounding magnificence, acting in concordance. The final battle may be fought with a sigh, rather then the usual orgy of bloodletting.

The ocean reverberates the message of the pounding surf, the incessant tides and the eternally bubbly foam.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:26 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:The transition for Chinese people is much easier since they largely avoided the paradigm of heiarchy, institution, dogma and rituals of religion. 18th 17th and 18th century European intellectuals rationalists and empiricists ... the Leibniz crowd ... recognized this fact. They couldn't understand how such a sophisticated civilization could emerge without religion. Though the Chinese have always had religion .... Chinese people over the age of 8 have long recognized the expression "Dao De" ... literally translated ... "The Way ... Virtue" . Seems the Chinese religion has always been more focused on the built in biological model ....

And if Christianity had not overrun Europe, then Europe would have kept and further on developed its own religion: the European religion.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:07 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:NT ... when 2 or more are gathered in my name ... I'll be there.

The Translator of Oswald Spengler’s „Untergang des Abendlandes“ wrote:
    The Classical * religion lived in its vast number of separate cults, which in this form were natural and self-evident to Apollinian man, essentially inaccessible to any alien. As soon as cults of this kind arise, we have a Classical * Culture, and when their essence changes, in later Roman times, then the soul of this Culture is at an end. Outside the Classical * landscape they have never been genuine and living. The divinity is always bound to and bounded by one locality in conformity with the static and Euclidean world-feeling. Correspondingly the relation of man to the divinity takes the shape of a local cult, in which the significances lie in the form of its ritual procedure and not in a dogma underlying them. Just as the population was scattered geographically in innumerable points, so spiritually its religion was subdivided into these petty cults, each of which was entirely independent of the rest. Only their number, and not their scope, was capable of increase. Within the Classical * religion multiplication was the only form of growth, and missionary effort of any sort was excluded, for men could practise these cults without belonging to them. There were no communities of fellow believers. Though the later thought of Athens reached somewhat more general ideas of God and his service, it was philosophy and not religion that it achieved; it appealed to only a few thinkers and had not the slightest effect on the feeling of the nation — that is, the Polis.

    In the sharpest contrast to this stands the visible form of the Magian religion – the Church, the brotherhood of the faithful, which has no home and knows no earthly frontier, which believes the words of Jesus, »when two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them«. It is self-evident that every such believer must believe that only one good and true God can be, and that the gods of the others are evil and false. The relation between this God and man rests, not in expression or profession, but in the secret force, the magic, of certain symbolic performances, which if they are to be effective must be exactly known in form and significance and practised accordingly. The knowledge of this significance belongs to the Church — in fact, it is the Church itself, qua community of the instructed. And, therefore, the centre of gravity of every Magian religion lies not in a cult, but in a doctrine, in the creed.

    *) "Classical" means here: "Ancient-Greek-and-Ancient-Roman-before-both-became-Christian".
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:43 am

    Hello Armenius,

    It is true also that early rites were demarked insofar as a variable territorial border claims, where mixed mythologies appeared. Certain Pantheons , marked a mixed veneration between Germanic and Norse and Greek mythological ameliations. Odin had one eye because he implanted wisdom.

    Religions imported through rites and rituals found fertile ground for these types of subtle changes, and this is my guess, but involved changes of political and territorial alterations as well.
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Ierrellus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:36 pm

    I am with those who see biological perseverance as evolution toward goals, hence exemplifying purpose. For religion to attend to the destiny of man it must accept our world as it is, If religion is to ameliorate the human condition, it must assure us that the I and the we are of equal importance, that to see either as most important supports the conflicts we now experience.
    Last edited by Ierrellus on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Ierrellus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:54 pm

    The age of I in the Western world, stemming from the Protestant and Industrial revolutions, has benefitted many lives with comfort and prosperity. The age is waning and we are in a sore transition. The age had its proper place in attending to the well-being of individuals. The I must not be forgotten or diminished; it must, however, give leeway to the equally important we. Biology includes a variety of particulars that merge into one thing. It has accomplished for us the task of seeing the many as one and the one as many. That is the first step toward enlightenment.
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:41 pm

    The Mythras Mysteries point to Persian Zorooster origin. and has a great deal of similarity to Christianity , and the influence is assumeable ,implying a transitional period which spanned hundreds of years in the Roman Empire.

    Nietzsche wrote Thus Sprach Zarahustra well acquainted with Zorooster , thus the links are unavoidable *
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:42 am

    This morning the tide came in "like a lamb" ... though it achieved the same extremity as yesterday ... the line of small shells in the sand.

    The "whisper" carried on the tide this morning was no less profound than the "message" carried on yesterdays' tide.

    While I obviously have a serious aversion to "AI" ... I finally 'see' its' utility ... thanks to the "whisper" carried on the tide this morning.

    " AI is forcing the "Truth" to the surface of human consciousness ... rather quickly these days." A great service to humanity ... a wonderful service indeed!

    Truth is destructive.

    JSS


    Then he will say to those on his left,
    'Depart from me, you accursed,
    into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
    I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
    a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
    naked and you gave me no clothing,
    ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
    Then they will answer and say,
    'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
    or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
    and not minister to your needs?'
    He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
    what you did not do for one of these least ones,
    you did not do for me.'


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4WTyVdN6Ko
    "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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    Re: End of the World

    Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:15 am

    No message received from the tide this morning. Some readers are breathing a sigh of relief ... "Whew! ... Pilgrim regained his sanity!

    Not so fast! :-)

    On my way to the beach ... a little more than 2 kilometers door to door ... I was told there would be no message from the tide this morning. Rather, I was instructed to whisper a message to the tide and beseech the tide to carry my message to all corners of humanity ... to the 'ocean of humanity'.

    Now some readers are saying to themselves ... "Oh shit! ... I can't take any more of this BS!"

    OK ... so stop reading.

    First some chronology of the events of this mornings' walk. I received the message I was instructed to deliver on the way to the beach. I stopped for breakfast as usual at the KFC ... a couple hundred metres from the beach. When I arrived at the beach I found the tide to be receding ... going out.

    I don't understand the physics of the movement of tides. I'm puzzled how such a dramatic shift can happen in 24 hours. For the past two days at roughly the same time the tide was obviously coming in ... and this morning ... going out???

    Wallowing in my ignorance, I simply assumed the tide understood it would receive a message from me this morning that had to be carried out into the Big ocean. :-)

    What was my message?

    The message is titled "A Confrontation with Truth".

    I wrestled with myself over the use of the word "confrontation" ... the word has such an aggresive/violent tone. After considerable reflection settled on keeping the word ... Why? Nobody ... at least very very few people volunteer to encounter Truth ... face to face. The event is simply too painful and fraught with peril. Trust me ... says the snake oil salesman. :-)

    I have no credentials to speak of such an incredily complex topic ... unspeakably complex. My hope is some readers will embrace the counsel of Thomas Kempis ... author of the book "Imitation of Christ".

    "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”


    On with my message ...

    Imagery is helpful when attempting to convey the explainable. Consider the image of a large glass house ... completely enveloped with a veil ... blocking ... both physically and visually ... whatever is beyond the glass walls. Nonetheless, some of what exists on the other side of the glass and veil seeps in ... likely by osmosis. I'm speaking of "Truth". The realm of Truth exists largely on the other side of the glass walls and veil.

    Suppose one day the glass walls shatter into thousands of pieces ... there are only two possible outcomes:

    1) Those individuals with enough courage and strength of character will tip toe among the fragments of glass until they reach the safety of the threshold of Truth.

    2) Those individuals found lacking in courage and strength of character will assume the fetal position among the fragments of glass ... paralyzed with fear ... clinging to the hope that someone will notice them and carry them to the safety of the realm of Truth.
    "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Ierrellus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:02 pm

    The veil? Is this something like Plato's parable of the cave dwellers or like Paul's recognition that "we see through a glass darkly"? Those who are awake to changes seem to agree that we exist in an age of transition, but do not clearly note from what to what. How do you see this age? Some have called it the age of information. If this is true and the information is toward the betterment of the human race, one might look to evolutionary psychology to inform us on how to join religion and science in a common goal.
    In the hopes of what we can be we must never forget who and what we are. All skipped steps in growth and development must be repeated.
    On evolutionary psychology see the Primer by Cosmides and Tooby.
    "We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
    I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
    From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
    Ierrellus
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    Re: End of the World

    Postby Ierrellus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:13 pm

    http//:www.cep.ucsb.edu/primer.html
    This does not seem to work. To find the work cited search Cosmides and Tooby "Primer of Evolutionary Psychology."
    "We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
    I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
    From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
    Ierrellus
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    Posts: 12331
    Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:52 pm
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