End of the World

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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:59 pm

Arminius,
If organic and inorganic matter are part of a cycle it becomes difficult to suggest which comes first or does one cause the other. It is probable, if the 1950s experiment to produce life is accurate, that life began on Earth with the coming of an atmosphere that could sustain it. The 50s experiment, in which chemicals supposed to comprise Earth's early atmosphere were brought together, produced amino acids. What is important to me is how these chemicals "know" what to become. If their activities were simply automatic. i.e., it is what is does, this makes a reasonable case for the Anthropic Principle.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Meno_ » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:24 pm

Irrellus, ill take up the slack here, not with standing , just to add a formal ingredient into this mix.

The question of knowledge may not only suggest an equally nebulous concept of consciousness, but entropy, decay may be the progenitors of the minutest elements of what such concepts may become from a potential formative basis.

Consciousness and knowledge too, may be understood in continual conjunctive relation, but as such they may be overlapping processes , where the more overlap the more signification.

There is no insignificant knowledge , and that is why we are calling conscious knowing a qualification to it. But that may imply that automatic action reaction type inorganic behavior we-differentiate, the difference between the built in automatic and willful .



In fact there is no contradiction , only a narrowly defined band in a spectrum of larger bands, if the analogy is appropriate.

In this scheme there is no difference between a thing defined by what it does , or one that is what it is by virtue of how it does it, and more likely is the evolution of attributing increasing inner causation to previous outer ones.

When this last frontier between inner and outer melts away, then the picture becomes clearer.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:11 pm

If evolution is goal oriented, decay and entropy may amount to necessary shedding of no longer necessary parts of a given program. Of course this assumes a lot. It assumes that there is a goal that extends beyond the facts of individual organisms or a larger teleology than that which determines the growth and development of individual organisms, which puts us in the realm of the religions that claim there can be eternal life.
It seems that we humans are constructed to adapt to certain environments and that there is no inner need that is without an outer source of supply. I think about this condition when I contemplate God. We were made to survive. Something out there wants us to.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:24 pm

I often think to myself humanity is destined to destroy itself and there is nothing that is going to stop this even a fictional contrived God won't. ^^^
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:I often think to myself humanity is destined to destroy itself and there is nothing that is going to stop this even a fictional contrived God won't. ^^^

But a real God might intervene.
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Re: End of the World

Postby dan25 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:37 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:A recent t.v. program showed a mile long patch of plastic debris floating in the Pacific Ocean.
There are over 7 billion people living on a globe that has limited natural resources.
"This is the way the world ends==
Not with a bang, but a whimper." --T. S. Eliot
How do you think the world will end? Or d0 you see the concern as just some religious or political propaganda?
Will science save us from ourselves? Can religion?

World War III, socio-economic collapse, and the desperate attempt at trying to preserve modern technological infrastructure at great costs to the natural environment.

Will religion or science save us? No, they're both the biggest problem and orchestrator of all this. World would be better off without each.



The world would be better off without science??
Without science we would still be living in caves, struggling to survive like wild animals....
I agree that religion has caused many problems.
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Re: End of the World

Postby dan25 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:45 pm

Homo sapiens will become extinct sooner or later.
Even if we collonise other space-masses, life as we know it will become impossible with the heat-death of the universe...
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:07 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:I often think to myself humanity is destined to destroy itself and there is nothing that is going to stop this even a fictional contrived God won't. ^^^

But a real God might intervene.

Why would it if such a thing we're real? So far we have 2800+years of absence and non-intervention to match from this entity you believe exists.
Last edited by Zero_Sum on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:09 pm

It's a bit pointless to speculate about the end if you are unaware of the cause of continuance.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:14 pm

dan25 wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:A recent t.v. program showed a mile long patch of plastic debris floating in the Pacific Ocean.
There are over 7 billion people living on a globe that has limited natural resources.
"This is the way the world ends==
Not with a bang, but a whimper." --T. S. Eliot
How do you think the world will end? Or d0 you see the concern as just some religious or political propaganda?
Will science save us from ourselves? Can religion?

World War III, socio-economic collapse, and the desperate attempt at trying to preserve modern technological infrastructure at great costs to the natural environment.

Will religion or science save us? No, they're both the biggest problem and orchestrator of all this. World would be better off without each.



The world would be better off without science??
Without science we would still be living in caves, struggling to survive like wild animals....
I agree that religion has caused many problems.



The only thing equally delusional or destructive to religion is the belief in scientific progress and innovation. In my mind we were better off as primitive animalistic savages living off the ignorant bliss and bounty of nature.

Homo sapiens will become extinct sooner or later.
Even if we collonise other space-masses, life as we know it will become impossible with the heat-death of the universe...


Yes, our extinction is an inevitability and no matter of prayer, self determination, or science is going to change any of that. This is the realization that most refuse to accept, the natural inevitability of total annihilation to everything.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:30 pm

James S Saint wrote:It's a bit pointless to speculate about the end if you are unaware of the cause of continuance.
???
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:35 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
James S Saint wrote:It's a bit pointless to speculate about the end if you are unaware of the cause of continuance.
???

What precisely do you believe has been causing the continuation of homosapian?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:38 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:
James S Saint wrote:It's a bit pointless to speculate about the end if you are unaware of the cause of continuance.
???

What precisely do you believe has been causing the continuation of homosapian?

I don't understand your question.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:12 pm

Certainly you believe that everything has a cause (else you would have no reason to believe that an end would be immanent). Whatever it is that has been causing homosapian to continue existing would have to be removed or defeated in order for homosapian to stop continuing. To speculate that homosapian is going to soon end implies that you see the cause of his continuance going away or being defeated.

So what is it that is causing homosapian to continuing existing in the first place?

You can't just look at the fact that people keep pulling water out of the well and presume that soon the well must be empty. You have to also look into what is filling the well from deep below the surface. It is the balance between those that determines if and when the well goes dry.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: End of the World

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:20 pm

James S Saint wrote:Certainly you believe that everything has a cause (else you would have no reason to believe that an end would be immanent). Whatever it is that has been causing homosapian to continue existing would have to be removed or defeated in order for homosapian to stop continuing. To speculate that homosapian is going to soon end implies that you see the cause of his continuance going away or being defeated.

So what is it that is causing homosapian to continuing existing in the first place?

You can't just look at the fact that people keep pulling water out of the well and presume that soon the well must be empty. You have to also look into what is filling the well from deep below the surface. It is the balance between those that determines if and when the well goes dry.

I believe civilization will destroy itself, what is so complicated in understanding any of that?

The verdict is still out on whether that will create a human extinction level event or not.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: End of the World

Postby iambiguous » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:49 pm

James S Saint wrote:You can't just look at the fact that people keep pulling water out of the well and presume that soon the well must be empty. You have to also look into what is filling the well from deep below the surface. It is the balance between those that determines if and when the well goes dry.


Some fill the well here with God, others with science.

But no one is able to connect the dots down through time such that they are able to arrive at an explanation [encompassed empirically] for the existence of existence.

An explanation that accounts for, among other things, dark matter, dark energy, and all that the human mind cannot yet even fully grasp about the "parts" before the Big Bang. The part, for example, where everything that now exists in a universe vast beyond comprehending came into existence out of nothing at all.

Stuff like this: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/top-1 ... s-science/

Or just google "mysteries of science": https://www.google.com/search?q=mysteri ... ce&ie=&oe=

The stuff that more or less revolves around... "But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

And that's before we get to the part about teleology.

Some however are able to "think" an explanation into existence.

They concoct out of words a world that is wholly understood merely by "analyzing" it into existence. A "theory of everything" nestled "intellectually" in their head.

And the more certain they are of it, the more certain you can be that they will never back down.

And this of course takes us to the mysteries embedded in human psychology itself. Mindful matter in and of itself is something of a miracle.

So, use that in imagining the existence of God.

Besides, as some suggest, what have you got to lose?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: End of the World

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:53 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:I believe civilization will destroy itself, what is so complicated in understanding any of that?

Civilization has been doing that for thousands of years, yet continues.

Zero_Sum wrote:The verdict is still out on whether that will create a human extinction level event or not.

And it will stay "out" until someone bothers to examine what is causing it to continue.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25805
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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