How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:36 pm

How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:17 pm

What makes you so sure they ignore it and forgive it easily?
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:44 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:What makes you so sure they ignore it and forgive it easily?


I am sure because God is shown to be a genocidal son murderer, yet they still retain him as their moral guide and idol worship him.

That is where I get my assuredness, as well as listening to other moral and intelligent people who agree with me based on logic and reason.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:What makes you so sure they ignore it and forgive it easily?


I am sure because God is shown to be a genocidal son murderer, yet they still retain him as their moral guide and idol worship him.

That is where I get my assuredness, as well as listening to other moral and intelligent people who agree with me based on logic and reason.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL


Maybe they have a lot in common, then.
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:26 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:What makes you so sure they ignore it and forgive it easily?


I am sure because God is shown to be a genocidal son murderer, yet they still retain him as their moral guide and idol worship him.

That is where I get my assuredness, as well as listening to other moral and intelligent people who agree with me based on logic and reason.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL


Maybe they have a lot in common, then.


They do indeed share that some vile weakness of character in politics and religion.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:28 pm

perhaps less than they think. It's hard to imagine a different viewpoint and perception when you're bound up in the very same thing they talk about fighting against. For being in it longer, some have unique viewpoints of the situation that make it hard for them to fully realize the viewpoint of the opposing perception which is the difference between negativity and positivity, pessimism and optimism. It has been admittedly hard on my own part to understand that opposing viewpoint, but what I've tried to explain is why I fight so hard to stay in it. I think the fight against has been based largely in stubborn stupidity compounding the situation of my opponents and have tried to take that into understanding as much as possible, which made me look weak. However, what bothers me most is that even when I'm being selfless I am forced to talk about myself and look to the stupid in that light instead of choosing to focus on what I'm talking about, continue to want to make a joke out of something that has consistently been stronger than them. I have been called stupid by them and stupid I had been until I got somewhere. Since then, I've been trying to help them find their own routes to better days and overcoming the stigma of what they; and you, yourself; have become, due to my lack of full knowledge of taking those rides.

But, what they, and you, fail to understand is that I still understand fully the routes you all have gone down and mine has been harder. Lived your lives broken down by the same things you've added to, further things adding to the problem of being able to break free from it at crucial moments where it could make a difference. But, instead of getting sappy, it's more about getting realistic and saying the hard line drawn in the sand is to make you and others struggle to reach the same gains I made. Overcoming the weakness that would make you weak by making you so weak that you eventually cease to want to keep fucking up and make yourselves strong. If you think this is overly harsh or cruel, then find me unsympathetic. All my sympathy is in giving you all better than you gave me, to lift you out of your shit by smacking you around in rough-tough love style on a platonic level.

Is it easy? No. If I make it look easy, take it into account that it's hard as Hell to get, which is what you and others keep stumbling on. I keep in mind that my life made it 'easier' for me to be this than you and others, which is why I say my path is hardest. I know that dark insanity and how hard it is to actually think clearly in all of that emotion and destructive reasoning. It's still just as simple at times as just to do and to keep doing, whether you feel like it or not, always constantly putting forth the better foot to be better than you were the day before. It is a constant struggle and fight. And, at this point, isn't what I would rather choose to put effort into putting seeming emotion into this even though I'm entire wavelengths beyond it just a sign of still making the effort because I care? At least for my own self to have a better life at times and exercising it selfishly and still achieving the same results through artistic craftsmanship and having to deal with the situations I, myself, am forced into?

You want to blame me for your existence, who you are and what you are without even realizing my own individuality and the unfairness of it on ME. I already knew my best wasn't good enough, already lived my life in the shadow of people it was just never good enough for. People I cared about far more than any of you and still parted ways with as if it were nothing because I lived the 'perfect' life. And I can actually say that with light sarcasm instead of the dripping with bitterness. Do you know how proud of my own self, in a good way, I am for being able to manage that? I really couldn't care more about your negative opinions of me other than the fact that they're attacks on me and I'm made to fight back and have you and so many others continuously on my nutsack.

What the fuck are you expecting of me?
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Anomaly654 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:33 am

How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?


I can’t speak for others—and as a Christian can’t speak for Jews or Muslims—but can tell you why and how I can ignore your perception of God’s immoral ways. All who read and argue the literal meaning of the Bible are brothers of like kind, whether atheist, progressive religionist, fundamentalist Christian, Jew or Muslim.

My willingness to accept the Biblical God can be seen within a worldview populated by a range of associated concepts, but for purposes of brevity I’ll limit to what are probably the main three ideas necessary to answering the question in the op with any sort of sufficiency.

From the concept of scale or point of reference:
1. the suffering of individuals
2. the lack of death

From the concept of morality:
3. the repair of the soul

1. The suffering of individuals in perspective.

We exist on a pretty pathetic scale in terms of our importance, power and prestige in the universe. We could be wiped out by space debris overnight. The laughter of joy and moaning in sufferings combined produce just a tiny drop in the well of the chaotic static produced just in our solar system in a given moment much less that of our galaxy.

How many anthills, birds nests or rabbit burrows are destroyed to make way for a cancer research laboratory, and why would it be more important to spare them to forgo the lab? In the great soup of energies, particles, wishes and ideas that dance together on the earth every second, why is the suffering or death of any human of any age at any point in time worth anything in the grand scheme of things?

2. The lack of death.

This is the simple one. Matter is energy and energy is matter and none of it is ever lost. It follows (again factoring in viewing things on their proper scale) that death is an illusion. Maybe life is the illusion; if the vitality of life is energy in a certain configuration, then who’s to say our experience here isn’t really at the bottom of the scale of possible life dynamics than the top, as we tend to believe? Here we have to breathe air, drink water and eat food to keep batteries [bodies] charged and maintain life. So if death is an illusion, is the one who designed and created it bad for allowing the suffering we ultimately bring on ourselves by our choices? Suffering, unlike death, seems not to be an illusion. If He has sufficient reason for allowing or even encouraging the suffering and death of those He created—in the same sense of scale we deem it sufficient to allow the suffering and death of lower life systems in order to benefit ours—then is He really such a terrible God?

3. The repair of the soul.

We kill and destroy to benefit ourselves. But God does what He does to repair, so it ultimately benefits us rather than Him…and this is what I would expect of a god. The reason I have no problem with “God’s immoral ways” is because I understand that He actually orders life in love for those upon whom He orders death and destruction. The Bible has dual (really layers of) meaning; for the unsaved it’s read in a literal sense. For the saved its understood in its allegorical sense.

When Jesus, after overturning the moneychangers’ tables and scattering their money and goods declared, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up,” what He actually said couldn’t be heard by the literalists—literally everyone standing there, including His own disciples. His meaning wasn’t understood and recorded till later. Same way, when God told the Hebrews to totally destroy the Canaanites it was a metaphor for cleansing.

The metaphor is a reference to the destruction of the cancer in the human soul that causes sin. This is true of nearly all the death and destruction in the Bible. This metaphor is referenced in various ways, dozens of times, in virtually every book of the Bible, OT and NT. Briefly, the applicable concept involved requires the soul be understood as an informational entity made up of “bits” of information as the body is made up of “bits” of matter. When the soul is fragmentally falsified [and of all existents the soul is the only thing that can be falsified by its owner] it results in the disease of imperfection. Sin is a byproduct.

The destruction of the Canaanites, the destruction of tares in Mat 13, the goats in Mat 25, the bad branches in Jn 15, the bad figs in Jer 24, bad grapes in the cluster in Isa 65:8, etc. are a few of the many references to bad parts within a whole. This pattern is repeated throughout the Bible, as noted earlier. I accept the Bible because only God could bring together a coded, unified, coherent allegoric structure using authors from all walks of life, of various ages, living in different societies and cultures separated by centuries of time demonstrating how and who He accepts and restores [all humans] in a single book. This is clearly beyond human ability to accomplish.

But to state that God is morally perfect even though committing immoral acts renders, according to the Bible’s critics, the notion of His own moral perfection incoherent. Just as Jesus was accused of sin for healing on the Sabbath, so God isn’t guilty for healing in death and destruction. No time or room to get into the theological arguments here, but a case can be made that behind every bit of grief, affliction, pain—suffering of any and every type by humans in life—there is an equal repair; a death and destruction of the false [death] and restoration of the truth [life]. The only thing that can die is the soul, everything else in the universe exists in a true state. (Humans can inject falsity [cause pain and suffering] into other forms of life, but this falsity is arguably, from a panentheistic point of view merely inflicting rage and harm on God, which He seems willing to absorb while He patiently restores human souls.)

Thus, the (physical) death that isn’t death is illusory below the macro scale, and the actual death (spiritual death) is being patiently brought to death itself in restoration work in the soul by the One you accuse of wrongdoing. The whole message of the Bible from Adam to Jesus is death and resurrection; we falsify and kill ourselves and others and God restores the falsity [death] of every soul to a wholly true [life] state. I mentioned saved and unsaved; that’s just a useful term for beings in time and space. Every human is both saved and unsaved, dead and alive, forgiven and condemned. The only way these statements are logically true is by understanding the metaphoric nature of the Bible. (Hints: Luke 9:60, Jn 12:24)

Can you hear the answer?
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:21 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?


I can’t speak for others—and as a Christian can’t speak for Jews or Muslims—but can tell you why and how I can ignore your perception of God’s immoral ways. All who read and argue the literal meaning of the Bible are brothers of like kind, whether atheist, progressive religionist, fundamentalist Christian, Jew or Muslim.

My willingness to accept the Biblical God can be seen within a worldview populated by a range of associated concepts, but for purposes of brevity I’ll limit to what are probably the main three ideas necessary to answering the question in the op with any sort of sufficiency.

From the concept of scale or point of reference:
1. the suffering of individuals
2. the lack of death

From the concept of morality:
3. the repair of the soul

1. The suffering of individuals in perspective.

We exist on a pretty pathetic scale in terms of our importance, power and prestige in the universe. We could be wiped out by space debris overnight. The laughter of joy and moaning in sufferings combined produce just a tiny drop in the well of the chaotic static produced just in our solar system in a given moment much less that of our galaxy.

How many anthills, birds nests or rabbit burrows are destroyed to make way for a cancer research laboratory, and why would it be more important to spare them to forgo the lab? In the great soup of energies, particles, wishes and ideas that dance together on the earth every second, why is the suffering or death of any human of any age at any point in time worth anything in the grand scheme of things?

2. The lack of death.

This is the simple one. Matter is energy and energy is matter and none of it is ever lost. It follows (again factoring in viewing things on their proper scale) that death is an illusion. Maybe life is the illusion; if the vitality of life is energy in a certain configuration, then who’s to say our experience here isn’t really at the bottom of the scale of possible life dynamics than the top, as we tend to believe? Here we have to breathe air, drink water and eat food to keep batteries [bodies] charged and maintain life. So if death is an illusion, is the one who designed and created it bad for allowing the suffering we ultimately bring on ourselves by our choices? Suffering, unlike death, seems not to be an illusion. If He has sufficient reason for allowing or even encouraging the suffering and death of those He created—in the same sense of scale we deem it sufficient to allow the suffering and death of lower life systems in order to benefit ours—then is He really such a terrible God?

3. The repair of the soul.

We kill and destroy to benefit ourselves. But God does what He does to repair, so it ultimately benefits us rather than Him…and this is what I would expect of a god. The reason I have no problem with “God’s immoral ways” is because I understand that He actually orders life in love for those upon whom He orders death and destruction. The Bible has dual (really layers of) meaning; for the unsaved it’s read in a literal sense. For the saved its understood in its allegorical sense.

When Jesus, after overturning the moneychangers’ tables and scattering their money and goods declared, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up,” what He actually said couldn’t be heard by the literalists—literally everyone standing there, including His own disciples. His meaning wasn’t understood and recorded till later. Same way, when God told the Hebrews to totally destroy the Canaanites it was a metaphor for cleansing.

The metaphor is a reference to the destruction of the cancer in the human soul that causes sin. This is true of nearly all the death and destruction in the Bible. This metaphor is referenced in various ways, dozens of times, in virtually every book of the Bible, OT and NT. Briefly, the applicable concept involved requires the soul be understood as an informational entity made up of “bits” of information as the body is made up of “bits” of matter. When the soul is fragmentally falsified [and of all existents the soul is the only thing that can be falsified by its owner] it results in the disease of imperfection. Sin is a byproduct.

The destruction of the Canaanites, the destruction of tares in Mat 13, the goats in Mat 25, the bad branches in Jn 15, the bad figs in Jer 24, bad grapes in the cluster in Isa 65:8, etc. are a few of the many references to bad parts within a whole. This pattern is repeated throughout the Bible, as noted earlier. I accept the Bible because only God could bring together a coded, unified, coherent allegoric structure using authors from all walks of life, of various ages, living in different societies and cultures separated by centuries of time demonstrating how and who He accepts and restores [all humans] in a single book. This is clearly beyond human ability to accomplish.

But to state that God is morally perfect even though committing immoral acts renders, according to the Bible’s critics, the notion of His own moral perfection incoherent. Just as Jesus was accused of sin for healing on the Sabbath, so God isn’t guilty for healing in death and destruction. No time or room to get into the theological arguments here, but a case can be made that behind every bit of grief, affliction, pain—suffering of any and every type by humans in life—there is an equal repair; a death and destruction of the false [death] and restoration of the truth [life]. The only thing that can die is the soul, everything else in the universe exists in a true state. (Humans can inject falsity [cause pain and suffering] into other forms of life, but this falsity is arguably, from a panentheistic point of view merely inflicting rage and harm on God, which He seems willing to absorb while He patiently restores human souls.)

Thus, the (physical) death that isn’t death is illusory below the macro scale, and the actual death (spiritual death) is being patiently brought to death itself in restoration work in the soul by the One you accuse of wrongdoing. The whole message of the Bible from Adam to Jesus is death and resurrection; we falsify and kill ourselves and others and God restores the falsity [death] of every soul to a wholly true [life] state. I mentioned saved and unsaved; that’s just a useful term for beings in time and space. Every human is both saved and unsaved, dead and alive, forgiven and condemned. The only way these statements are logically true is by understanding the metaphoric nature of the Bible. (Hints: Luke 9:60, Jn 12:24)

Can you hear the answer?


No.

Nothing you put tells me why a person would ignore his moral repulsion of a God who seems to kill and never cure the afflicted.

Why do theists suck up to satanic Gods?

Regards
DL
Last edited by Greatest I am on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:26 pm

The Eternal Warrior wrote:perhaps less than they think. It's hard to imagine a different viewpoint and perception when you're bound up in the very same thing they talk about fighting against.


The different POV is given to them in various scenarios and ways.

It is ignoring those good moral arguments that irks me in terms of arguing with theists.

Especially when they knowingly adore a really evil God and know they are creating an immoral double standard of morality top forgive their God for things they would condemn men for.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Anomaly654 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:10 pm

No.

Nothing you put tells me why a person would ignore his moral repulsion of a God who seems to kill and never cure the afflicted.

Of course not.

I finished with the question knowing that neither you nor your brethren fundamentalist/literalists (Christian, Muslim, Jew and atheist alike) are willing to climb out of the mire to investigate, much less grasp, the bigger picture. I could tell from reading your posts that you're wrapped in chains of a hate-spewing agenda. You're legion, GIA. Same arguments, same disgust and loathing for things you're unwilling to understand. You cover your condition by turning the spewing around 180 degrees against the thing hated, allowing you the illusion of wearing the clothing called "moral high ground". Fortunately for all of us, the God we detest is big enough to absorb and repair our hatred. In the meantime, haters gonna hate.
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:08 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
No.

Nothing you put tells me why a person would ignore his moral repulsion of a God who seems to kill and never cure the afflicted.

Of course not.

I finished with the question knowing that neither you nor your brethren fundamentalist/literalists (Christian, Muslim, Jew and atheist alike) are willing to climb out of the mire to investigate, much less grasp, the bigger picture. I could tell from reading your posts that you're wrapped in chains of a hate-spewing agenda. You're legion, GIA. Same arguments, same disgust and loathing for things you're unwilling to understand. You cover your condition by turning the spewing around 180 degrees against the thing hated, allowing you the illusion of wearing the clothing called "moral high ground". Fortunately for all of us, the God we detest is big enough to absorb and repair our hatred. In the meantime, haters gonna hate.


Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

To put Gnostic Christians in league with idol worshipers shows how small and stupid a mind you have.

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:25 am

The biggest immorality (utilizing the language here) of God is that in a world of so much suffering, misery, and inequality such a higher being does nothing because God's believers will cite some referential BS articulation of free will.

God's indifference, lack of intervention, and apathy is justified by freewill? Talk about a lame excuse yet a majority still believe in this drivel.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:52 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:The biggest immorality (utilizing the language here) of God is that in a world of so much suffering, misery, and inequality such a higher being does nothing because God's believers will cite some referential BS articulation of free will.

God's indifference, lack of intervention, and apathy is justified by freewill? Talk about a lame excuse yet a majority still believe in this drivel.


Once you decide to believe one lie, it is quite easy to swallow many more.

One nice thing about today, is that they cannot silence us with Inquisitions and knowledge is killing not only Christianity but all the idol worshiping religions.

Praise be to God.
Oops. I did not mean it that way.

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