many historical Jesuses

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many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 am

From the standpoint of history, there are many possible ways to characterize Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus may be a myth. How does one decide?

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby James S Saint » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:47 am

One stops being bias and let's the probabilities take over yet remain always only probabilities.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
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It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:29 am

I'm going to refer you to a link...

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/ ... ead/19667/

Read this thread!


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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:52 am

felix dakat wrote:From the standpoint of history, there are many possible ways to characterize Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus may be a myth. How does one decide?


Felix ... your superior insight has popped up to the surface ... yet again. :-)

No need to decide ... embracing contradictions ... and the tensions arising as a consequence ... is healthy. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:05 am

You folks need a spirit kickstart!!!

The Incredible Hulk really exists!!!!

You folks really don't get it!!

Of course Jesus exists...

How do I explain enlightenment to those who lack it???

Everyone wants an omnibenevolent universe, their individual fantasies manifested as reality without harm.

Since manifestation occurs, and everyone wants it, it will be manifest.
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:29 pm

Here are a few of the Jesus theories from which to choose: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 pm

According to some scholars Jesus was an apocalyptical prophet and according to others he was a holy man, wisdom teacher or Cynic.

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:09 am

"The main sources for our knowledge of Jesus himself, the gospels in the New Testament, are, from the point of view of the historian, tainted by the fact that they were written by people who intended to glorify their hero. The sources for Jesus are better, however, than those that deal with Alexander. The original biographies of Alexander have all been lost, and they are known only because they were used by later – much later – writers. The primary sources for Jesus were written nearer his own lifetime, and people who had known him were still alive. That is one of the reasons for saying that in some ways we know more about Jesus than about Alexander."


Sanders, E. The Historical Figure of Jesus

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:45 pm

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." This description of Jesus suggests He is a way to be followed (Tao), not a name to be worshipped. Those who confuse nouns with verbs will miss the direct experience with the Godhead that Jesus offers.
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby Jakob » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:38 pm

Ierrellus wrote:"I am the way, the truth, and the life." This description of Jesus suggests He is a way to be followed (Tao), not a name to be worshipped. Those who confuse nouns with verbs will miss the direct experience with the Godhead that Jesus offers.

    "Truth is our Path, and Truth is our Goal; ay! there shall came to all a moment of great Light when the Path is seen to be itself the Goal; and in that hour every one of us shall exclaim:

    "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life!"

    Yea, the Life also, Life eternal in Time and boundless in Space; for what is Life but the continual resolution of the antimony of the diverse by the spasm of Love under Will, that is, by the constantly explosive, the orgiastic, perception of Truth, the dissolution of dividuality in one radiant star of Truth that ever revolveth, and goeth, and filleth the Heavens with Light?

    I beseech you earnestly, dear Brethren, to grapple manfully as mighty wrestlers with the ideas in these Little Essays: to understand them --

    ...with the extended flame of far-reaching Mind, measuring all things except that Intelligible. but it is requisite to understand this; for if thou inclinest thy Mind thou wilt understand it, not earnestly; but it is becoming to bring with thee a pure and inquiring sense, to extend the void mind of thy soul to that Intelligible, because it subsisteth beyond Mind.

    For thus not only will you develop the spiritual intuition, the very Neschamah of your divine Being, but (in the degree of your Concentration of your power to slow down and finally to stop the irritable movements of your ratiocinative machinery) to transmute these Essays -- the Prima Materia of your Great Work; passing through the stage of the Black Dragon, in which your rational ideas are wholly destroyed and putrefied, you will succeed in enflaming them in the fierce Furnace of your Creative Wills, until all things burn up together into one blazing mass of living, of relentless Light.

    And thus come ye to Sammasamadhi -- thus are ye free for ever of all the bonds that bound your Godhead!

    A similar Fire flashingly extending through the rushings of Air, or a Fire formless whence cometh the Image of a Voice, or even a flashing Light abounding, revolving, whirling forth, crying aloud. Also there is the Vision of the fire-flashing Courser of Light, or else a Child, borne aloft on the shoulders of the Celestial Steed, fiery, or clothed with gold, or naked, or shooting with the bow shafts of Light, and standing on the shoulders of the horse; then if thy meditation prolongeth itself, thou shalt unite all these Symbols into the Form of a Lion.

    Then shall ye understand what is Truth, for ye shall understand your Selves, and YE ARE TRUTH!" [Crowley, Little Essays]

Compare the last line to
"And you are also this will to power, and nothing besides!"
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby phyllo » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:10 pm

From the standpoint of history, there are many possible ways to characterize Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus may be a myth. How does one decide?
You can't know the truth about the "real" Jesus. And it doesn't matter.

Is what he allegedly said and what allegedly happened in his life, applicable to your life and this world?

Use whatever makes sense and whatever works ... discard the rest.

If nothing makes sense then ignore Jesus.
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:00 am

Ierrellus wrote:"I am the way, the truth, and the life." This description of Jesus suggests He is a way to be followed (Tao), not a name to be worshipped. Those who confuse nouns with verbs will miss the direct experience with the Godhead that Jesus offers.


That quote "I am the way, the truth and the life" comes from the so-called "Gospel of John." Most Jesus scholars agree that the gospel of John is the least historically accurate of the gospels. The historical or "Pre-Easter" Jesus probably did not make that claim. I say that because The Gospel of John has Jesus make many claims about himself that are unlike the way he speaks in the other three gospels in which he preached the "Kingdom of God", not himself. The Gospel of John is more of a theological treatise than a historical narrative. As you suggest, Jesus as the Way the Truth and the Life reflects the experience of the author.
Last edited by felix dakat on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:15 am

phyllo wrote:
From the standpoint of history, there are many possible ways to characterize Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus may be a myth. How does one decide?
You can't know the truth about the "real" Jesus. And it doesn't matter.

Is what he allegedly said and what allegedly happened in his life, applicable to your life and this world?

Use whatever makes sense and whatever works ... discard the rest.

If nothing makes sense then ignore Jesus.


Like James said above, the historicity of Jesus is a matter judgment about the plausibility or probability of the proposition. I am at this moment convinced that he was an historical person. If you're not may I suggest Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth by Bart Ehrman. The question then becomes what "manner of man" was he? How much of the stories told about him are historically accurate and how much is the overlay of the authors?

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby omar » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:05 am

But that is the the thing that Bart had to face in the end. The Christian brand is not about a wise Rabbi, which would be a natural event, one in a series, but of a supernatural event in which God dies for man. You can be sure that Jesus existed and still lose your faith.

Personally I believe that the supernatural dimension of the story was an addition which was not part of Jesus' message, but a modification to it crafted by the resourceful Paul. Galatians and James I believe show that conflict and what Jesus' message might have sounded like. So my own question becomes: if Jesus was "just" a wise Rabbi then why did they killed him? Well perhaps he was a Jeremiah, a prophet who got caught. So why the myth? Paul's attempt at rationalizing the brutal event in a language that borrowed heavily from the myths of his audience.
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:26 am

omar wrote:But that is the the thing that Bart had to face in the end. The Christian brand is not about a wise Rabbi, which would be a natural event, one in a series, but of a supernatural event in which God dies for man. You can be sure that Jesus existed and still lose your faith.


Strict supernaturalist orthodoxy is lost. But, an historical Jesus is probable. But, was he an apocalyptical prophet or a wisdom teacher? If the former, he anticipated an imminent cataclysm followed by a mass resurrection and a divine final judgment. If the latter, he preached unconventional wisdom in aphorisms and parables designed to bring the hearer into an first-hand relationship with the divine spirit that he was experiencing himself. If the latter is the case, the apocalyptical stuff was appended to his ministry by his followers sometime after his death.

Personally I believe that the supernatural dimension of the story was an addition which was not part of Jesus' message, but a modification to it crafted by the resourceful Paul. Galatians and James I believe show that conflict and what Jesus' message might have sounded like. So my own question becomes: if Jesus was "just" a wise Rabbi then why did they killed him? Well perhaps he was a Jeremiah, a prophet who got caught. So why the myth? Paul's attempt at rationalizing the brutal event in a language that borrowed heavily from the myths of his audience.


Jesus' message although non-violent, was subversive. He would have been a troublemaker as far as the Jewish priesthood who cooperated with the Romans were concerned. Josephus paints Pontius Pilate as far more tyrannical than do the gospels. He would have had no qualms about executing a trouble-maker.

But, Ehrman and the majority of 20th centrury scholars since Schweitzer have favored the apocalyptical prophet model. Borg and Crossan favor the wisdom teacher model. The latter model of Jesus exemplifies a kind of spirituality and compassion that I find relevant even at this time.

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:21 pm

The apocalyptical prophet model begins with the observation that compares the historical Jesus to the apocalyptic prophets that have appeared throughout history proclaiming the end of the age. Since John the Baptist, Paul and Palestinian Jewish milieu were apocalyptic, it only makes sense that the historical Jesus was apocalyptic too. Those texts with elements of "realized eschatology" - the Gospel of Luke, the Gospel of John, and the Gospel of Thomas - reflect a softening of apocalyptic expectation at the end of the first century or in the early second century when Jesus failed to return. Jesus' extreme teachings make sense as an "interim ethic" that is intended to apply to the short period of under a generation between the time of Jesus and the end of the age. His cleansing of the Temple make sense in the context of the eschatological expectations of the historical Jesus.

The model of Jesus as a wisdom sage acknowledges that the views of John the Baptist and Paul and other Palestinian Jews were apocalyptically oriented and that the early church came to share Paul's apocalyptical view. However, Jesus taught an unconventional wisdom that represent God's rule as present. Jesus' best attested teachings became obfuscated by the pessimistic apocalyptic notions of Jesus' immediate predecessors, contemporaries, and successors.

"Wisdom sage" theorists point to Jesus sayings that run counter to the popular apocalyptical views like
"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’.
For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”[Luke 17:20-21] and
"But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." [Luke 11:20]

According to the wisdom sage model the best explanation is that these sayings and the best attested parables originated with Jesus, since they go against the dominant trend of the unfolding apocalyptic tradition. The subtlety of Jesus' sense of time - the simultaneity of present and future - was almost lost on his followers, many of whom started as disciples of John the Baptist, and are represented, in the gospels, as understanding Jesus poorly."

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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:49 pm

The historical Jesus is snickering in his cave.
He is none other than the great Baba-ji, who lives through this entire age on breath alone, and whose only writing concerns the defiance of nuclear blasts by pure will.
(true story)

The Same is He whose Wings are the Holy Spirit or Cosmic Hawk which held back the Waters for Moses and his Flock of Chosen Rams and whose Head is the Eternal Blaze signified by the Sun Wheel which makes the Earth Turn and toward the Nexus of which all of Knowing is Built.
Christ Thrice Born
Prepare Ye For Harvest

(I came into this thread wanting to ask you Felix which version of Jesus you value most, but I like too much to speak through the transmutative powers of the Christ concept)
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Re: many historical Jesuses

Postby felix dakat » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:41 pm

Jakob wrote:The historical Jesus is snickering in his cave.
He is none other than the great Baba-ji, who lives through this entire age on breath alone, and whose only writing concerns the defiance of nuclear blasts by pure will.
(true story)

The Same is He whose Wings are the Holy Spirit or Cosmic Hawk which held back the Waters for Moses and his Flock of Chosen Rams and whose Head is the Eternal Blaze signified by the Sun Wheel which makes the Earth Turn and toward the Nexus of which all of Knowing is Built.
Christ Thrice Born
Prepare Ye For Harvest

(I came into this thread wanting to ask you Felix which version of Jesus you value most, but I like too much to speak through the transmutative powers of the Christ concept)


No problem. I favor the model of Jesus as wisdom sage and man of the spirit because my experience is more compatible with it. However, after years of study I am still unable to distinguish whether that model is more probable than the apocalyptical prophet model on historical grounds.

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