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If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, sh

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:01 pm

If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

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DL
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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:30 am

Yes, we must critique and condemn such ideologies especially Islam [in part] which is inspiring so many of its believers to commit terrible evils and violence as a divine duty in the name of Allah.

The ideology and central doctrine of Christianity is basically pacifist.
However it has elements of hindering knowledge and progress, e.g. preferring creationism to evolution and certain aspects of Science and technology. This is not terribly evil but nevertheless should be condemned for its non-progressiveness.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Anomaly654 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:25 pm

If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?...I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems.

As a Gnostic--and thereby presumably spiritually enlightened to a degree higher than that of the common, ordinary Christian--I find it odd that you rail against religions and belief systems. These are merely the visible effects of evil, not causes of it. Do you suppose you can erase evil by eliminating particular religions? How is one to believe that the religion you insert in place after shutting down another is any better? Given this, I question your authority and competence to suggest that Jesus would condemn Christianity and Islam. Jesus was too smart to focus on effects. This is probably why most folks seem to have missed His points, which are essentially centered on the spiritual rather than the emotional. It appears that Gnosticism, if you are a viable representative of its doctrines, fares no better than those she condemns.
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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:Yes, we must critique and condemn such ideologies especially Islam [in part] which is inspiring so many of its believers to commit terrible evils and violence as a divine duty in the name of Allah.

The ideology and central doctrine of Christianity is basically pacifist.
However it has elements of hindering knowledge and progress, e.g. preferring creationism to evolution and certain aspects of Science and technology. This is not terribly evil but nevertheless should be condemned for its non-progressiveness.


Strange that a pacifist religion would have so may Inquisitions in it's history, but I basically agree with your view.

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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:44 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?...I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems.

As a Gnostic--and thereby presumably spiritually enlightened to a degree higher than that of the common, ordinary Christian--I find it odd that you rail against religions and belief systems.


Why, when Jesus himself did just that?

Isaiah 56:11) "They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

FMPOV, Jesus wanted to free us from organized religion, not slave us to it, and that is why our Gnostic Christian view was opposed by the church and why they used Inquisitions to try to eliminate us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

These are merely the visible effects of evil, not causes of it.


Try telling that to gays and women when religions are the primary source of homophobias and misogyny.

Do you suppose you can erase evil by eliminating particular religions?


Not all but a major player that perpetuates evil.

How is one to believe that the religion you insert in place after shutting down another is any better?


If we accept that Christianity and Islam are immoral ideologies, then looking at past history and their enemies who lost the God wars might show that those religions that Inquisitions and Jihads have destroyed were superior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ptNcSYo7k4

Given this, I question your authority and competence to suggest that Jesus would condemn Christianity and Islam.


Question all you like, but do show an argument against instead of a bare statement.

Jesus was too smart to focus on effects.


Thanks for the laugh.

This is probably why most folks seem to have missed His points, which are essentially centered on the spiritual rather than the emotional. It appears that Gnosticism, if you are a viable representative of its doctrines, fares no better than those she condemns.


I think we do as we too focus on the spiritual, with these quotes and that link above as a take off point.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus said he would know his people by their works and deeds.

Do you think he would see Inquisitionists and Jihadists as his people?

Do you think he would see homophobes and misogynists and those who do not give equality to all people as his people?

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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Anomaly654 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:37 pm

Why, when Jesus himself did just that?

But as a Gnostic you're interpreting exactly the way the hardcore fundamentalist does. She also takes Jesus' words at face value and fails to recognize where He's pointing. It's not their actual tradition He's condemning. Read His words in the the context of all He says throughout the gospels. It's a spiritual disease that causes minds to distort truth into fragmentally falsified traditions. Traditions are always built on a truth base but distorted by humans who push their own agendas into them. How is it that you, a Gnostic, also fail to see this and read the Scripture the same way as those you disapprove of?

Try telling that to gays and women when religions are the primary source of homophobias and misogyny.

You freely use the language of a portion of society known today for the unashamed substitution of reason with emotion to promote a recognizable progressive ideology. I have no interest or time to discuss these issues, but wonder: have you considered that what you would substitute as "better"--once the offending religions you disdain are properly eliminated--might just be another depravation, just injecting a different set of corrupt rules into society from a different perspective? Every member of every ideology (religion or non-religion) believes their way to be the best in terms of the truth-value of their respective knowledge bases. But corruption can be found in all of them from any given third person perspective. Why would you succeed where everyone else has failed?

Thanks for the laugh..

I think we do as we too focus on the spiritual, with these quotes and that link above as a take off point.

It appears we've reached a brick wall with regard to relevant discussion. Good luck in your search for the truth.
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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:36 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
Why, when Jesus himself did just that?

But as a Gnostic you're interpreting exactly the way the hardcore fundamentalist does. She also takes Jesus' words at face value and fails to recognize where He's pointing. It's not their actual tradition He's condemning. Read His words in the the context of all He says throughout the gospels. It's a spiritual disease that causes minds to distort truth into fragmentally falsified traditions. Traditions are always built on a truth base but distorted by humans who push their own agendas into them. How is it that you, a Gnostic, also fail to see this and read the Scripture the same way as those you disapprove of?


If they say a truth, I do not care how it is said or who said it. As you say, some traditions are based on a truth. Why do you discourage me from taking and using that bit of truth you say is there?

Try telling that to gays and women when religions are the primary source of homophobias and misogyny.

You freely use the language of a portion of society known today for the unashamed substitution of reason with emotion to promote a recognizable progressive ideology. I have no interest or time to discuss these issues, but wonder: have you considered that what you would substitute as "better"--once the offending religions you disdain are properly eliminated--might just be another depravation, just injecting a different set of corrupt rules into society from a different perspective? Every member of every ideology (religion or non-religion) believes their way to be the best in terms of the truth-value of their respective knowledge bases. But corruption can be found in all of them from any given third person perspective. Why would you succeed where everyone else has failed?


??

Secular governments have already done a lot better in terms of laws than theistic laws so I do not agree that everyone else has failed.

Find the corruption you think is in Gnostic Christianity so that I might see what exactly you are talking about.

I looked quite strongly at the ideology before accepting the label.

Thanks for the laugh..

I think we do as we too focus on the spiritual, with these quotes and that link above as a take off point.

It appears we've reached a brick wall with regard to relevant discussion. Good luck in your search for the truth.


Thanks. I put what I did above before looking at your close.

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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:40 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Yes, we must critique and condemn such ideologies especially Islam [in part] which is inspiring so many of its believers to commit terrible evils and violence as a divine duty in the name of Allah.

The ideology and central doctrine of Christianity is basically pacifist.
However it has elements of hindering knowledge and progress, e.g. preferring creationism to evolution and certain aspects of Science and technology. This is not terribly evil but nevertheless should be condemned for its non-progressiveness.


Strange that a pacifist religion would have so may Inquisitions in it's history, but I basically agree with your view.

Regards
DL
The central theme of Christianity in the NT is a pacifist maxim, 'Love your enemies' with 'Love your neighbors' etc.

Those Christians who carried out the inquisitions committed those evils out of their own personal evil prone nature and misguided religious zeals.
I supposed when in the thereafter, these zealous inquisitors are likely to face God's and Jesus' wrath, e.g.
Jesus would have scolded them;
    "WTF, I told you to love your enemies, not torture and kill them."

OTOH, Allah would have said to the jihadists and martyrs;
    "Yo! give me five, you have carried my command to the 't' and I will reward you with more than 72 virgins and the greatest sensual delights in Paradise"
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:04 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:[
quote="Greatest I am"]
Prismatic567 wrote:Yes, we must critique and condemn such ideologies especially Islam [in part] which is inspiring so many of its believers to commit terrible evils and violence as a divine duty in the name of Allah.

The ideology and central doctrine of Christianity is basically pacifist.
However it has elements of hindering knowledge and progress, e.g. preferring creationism to evolution and certain aspects of Science and technology. This is not terribly evil but nevertheless should be condemned for its non-progressiveness.


Strange that a pacifist religion would have so may Inquisitions in it's history, but I basically agree with your view.

Regards
DL
The central theme of Christianity in the NT is a pacifist maxim, 'Love your enemies' with 'Love your neighbors' etc.

Those Christians who carried out the inquisitions committed those evils out of their own personal evil prone nature and misguided religious zeals.
I supposed when in the thereafter, these zealous inquisitors are likely to face God's and Jesus' wrath, e.g.
Jesus would have scolded them;
    "WTF, I told you to love your enemies, not torture and kill them."


You give Christianity a religion of peace label but I do not and see then as a tamed version of Islam.

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

I see neither Christianity or Islam as deserving of any respect. Both their Gods are vile and immoral. Both offer a slave holding ideology.

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

Loving your neighbor is great when he also loves you but if he hates you, I read the reciprocity rules as saying that giving what you get is fair play. To love one who hates you is rewarding evil and that is not a good idea. Right?

OTOH, Allah would have said to the jihadists and martyrs;
    "Yo! give me five, you have carried my command to the 't' and I will reward you with more than 72 virgins and the greatest sensual delights in Paradise"
[/quote]

Indeed.

Strange how Muslims expect physical delights in a non-physical realm.

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DL
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