Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any parti

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Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any parti

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:59 pm

Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cwOqKf ... gest-vrecs

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other.

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments, veils or beards are two examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

These Golden Rules exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable.

In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:30 pm

In every society, you are restricted in some way. That's the price of membership.

I bet that you can't walk down the street naked without the cops taking you away. Especially if you're a man.

So really, what's the difference between that and a religious requirement to wear some item of clothing? :-"
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby James S Saint » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:39 pm

First one would have to establish a standard with which to measure morality.

And even then, it is unlikely for it to be moral (inviolable code of behavior) to force ALL people to do hardly anything. But until the standard is established, nothing can be rationally argued.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:45 pm

phyllo wrote:In every society, you are restricted in some way. That's the price of membership.


Indeed. I do not mind intelligent ands moral restrictions.
phyllo wrote:I bet that you can't walk down the street naked without the cops taking you away. Especially if you're a man.


You are correct but no force is involved in that.

phyllo wrote:So really, what's the difference between that and a religious requirement to wear some item of clothing? :-"


I covered that I think with the requirement of a just cause.

In the case of Islam, there is no religious requirement. Muslims cannot quote it and in the Hajj, women do not have to wear their head gear and that is their holiest site.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:47 pm

James S Saint wrote:First one would have to establish a standard with which to measure morality.

And even then, it is unlikely for it to be moral (inviolable code of behavior) to force ALL people to do hardly anything. But until the standard is established, nothing can be rationally argued.


I guess you missed my referring to the Golden Rule.

Is that not a good enough moral standard for you?

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby James S Saint » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:53 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
James S Saint wrote:First one would have to establish a standard with which to measure morality.

And even then, it is unlikely for it to be moral (inviolable code of behavior) to force ALL people to do hardly anything. But until the standard is established, nothing can be rationally argued.


I guess you missed my referring to the Golden Rule.

Is that not a good enough moral standard for you?

Regards
DL

No it isn't. If you were saying that the golden rule is the guide for all morality, you're going to have serious loopholes. The golden rule was intended as merely a rule of thumb.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25805
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby phyllo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:58 pm

I covered that I think with the requirement of a just cause.
That's just a vague and general rationalization.

One simply declares that there is a just cause for stuff that he supports and also declares that there in no just cause for stuff that he opposes. :-"

Don't take this personally, you're not the only one who does this.
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:12 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
James S Saint wrote:First one would have to establish a standard with which to measure morality.

And even then, it is unlikely for it to be moral (inviolable code of behavior) to force ALL people to do hardly anything. But until the standard is established, nothing can be rationally argued.


I guess you missed my referring to the Golden Rule.

Is that not a good enough moral standard for you?

Regards
DL

No it isn't. If you were saying that the golden rule is the guide for all morality, you're going to have serious loopholes. The golden rule was intended as merely a rule of thumb.


Even after all this time, you have still not learned much of anything.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:17 pm

phyllo wrote:
I covered that I think with the requirement of a just cause.
That's just a vague and general rationalization.

One simply declares that there is a just cause for stuff that he supports and also declares that there in no just cause for stuff that he opposes. :-"

Don't take this personally, you're not the only one who does this.


We all do, including you, and when parties do not agree, then hopefully a discussion brings the antagonists to a conclusion and agreement.

About 75% of us use the same basic moral standards. That is why the definition of words usually comes after a discussion and not at the front end like our less intelligent friend does.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby James S Saint » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:22 pm

So now you're taking an interpretation of the Torah as the holly standard of morality? I'm pretty sure they tried that already. And now we have Israel invading Palestine, "turning nation against nation", taking over all media sources, tricking people into a monetary prison system, and spreading targeted diseases .. all to achieve absolute power over the world - to be God.

You really think that conforms to that golden rule?



Greatest I am wrote:when parties do not agree, then hopefully a discussion brings the antagonists to a conclusion and agreement.

Almost never happens.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25805
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby phyllo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:40 am

We all do, including you, and when parties do not agree, then hopefully a discussion brings the antagonists to a conclusion and agreement.

About 75% of us use the same basic moral standards. That is why the definition of words usually comes after a discussion and not at the front end like our less intelligent friend does.
So, I'm still not sure if you have a problem with dress codes or if you have a problem with the dress codes of "those people over there".

Do you have a standard for dress codes? Can you spell out a consistent "just cause"? Are all dress codes immoral?
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:18 am

Re dress code, as long as the requirement has been seriously deliberated, well grounded, taken every interests into account and considered optimal for a specific situation, I have no issue with it.

However I have issue with dress codes that are forced upon men or women based on the grounds, because God said so!
This is ethically wrong and groundless as it is impossible for a God to exists as real to the extent of delivering a dress code via a messenger or prophet.

In the case of SOME Muslims, they deceptively insist that Allah expect women to wear the jihab [cover hair] or burga [cover full body] when no such thing is mentioned in the Quran [god's message]. Even if it is written in a holy book, it should not be forced on any one because to rely on the authority of in illusory God is groundless.

Even if the dress code is not forced but a personal choice, believers cannot insist on wearing it because they claim their religion demand it and their God said so. This is an ongoing problem where many Muslim women [prevented from wearing hijab] are suing their employer for restricting them in practicing their religion freely. wtf.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:49 pm

phyllo wrote:
We all do, including you, and when parties do not agree, then hopefully a discussion brings the antagonists to a conclusion and agreement.

About 75% of us use the same basic moral standards. That is why the definition of words usually comes after a discussion and not at the front end like our less intelligent friend does.
So, I'm still not sure if you have a problem with dress codes or if you have a problem with the dress codes of "those people over there".

Do you have a standard for dress codes? Can you spell out a consistent "just cause"? Are all dress codes immoral?


My dress code does not include stoning people for wearing two different types of cloth.

Your Christian ideology does.

My standard for dress code is anything that is not forced without a just cause. It is superior to your Christian one.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
We all do, including you, and when parties do not agree, then hopefully a discussion brings the antagonists to a conclusion and agreement.

About 75% of us use the same basic moral standards. That is why the definition of words usually comes after a discussion and not at the front end like our less intelligent friend does.
So, I'm still not sure if you have a problem with dress codes or if you have a problem with the dress codes of "those people over there".

Do you have a standard for dress codes? Can you spell out a consistent "just cause"? Are all dress codes immoral?


No. I do not have a standard for dress code other than any code having a just cause when imposed on us.

Just cause could be security of the person and others.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:59 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:Re dress code, as long as the requirement has been seriously deliberated, well grounded, taken every interests into account and considered optimal for a specific situation, I have no issue with it.

However I have issue with dress codes that are forced upon men or women based on the grounds, because God said so!
This is ethically wrong and groundless as it is impossible for a God to exists as real to the extent of delivering a dress code via a messenger or prophet.

In the case of SOME Muslims, they deceptively insist that Allah expect women to wear the jihab [cover hair] or burga [cover full body] when no such thing is mentioned in the Quran [god's message]. Even if it is written in a holy book, it should not be forced on any one because to rely on the authority of in illusory God is groundless.

Even if the dress code is not forced but a personal choice, believers cannot insist on wearing it because they claim their religion demand it and their God said so. This is an ongoing problem where many Muslim women [prevented from wearing hijab] are suing their employer for restricting them in practicing their religion freely. wtf.


A strange situation indeed when we see other Muslim women going to court for the opposite reason.

I wish the governments would get more involved in showing the disrespect for homophobic and misogynous religions that they deserve.

Change must come from the secular side as the religious sides are corrupted by their literal belief in the supernatural Gods.

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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby James S Saint » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:58 pm

Christianity has NEVER had stoning people. And due to Christianity, no other religion has it anymore.

You can't just say that a dress code must have "just cause" without explicating your terms for surrender to such a dictate. The religions had prophets. What's your excuse?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25805
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:25 am

James S Saint wrote:
Christianity has NEVER had stoning people. And due to Christianity, no other religion has it anymore.


Some Muslim majority nations still stone gays and fornicators and your own bible calls for it for various infractions. I do not have any instances of Christianity stoning, I will give you that, but their witch hunts, burnings and drowning's as will as the many murders Christian inquisition are liable for should be enough to show you what kind of vile religion Christianity is. What else can be expected from people who adore a genocidal son murdering prick?

You can't just say that a dress code must have "just cause" without explicating your terms for surrender to such a dictate. The religions had prophets. What's your excuse?


Well, 5,000 honor killings from the Muslim community for their women not kowtowing to their men and traditions is one unjust cause.

If you need more, I think you can research it as you might not accept where I get my information.

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DL
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Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby James S Saint » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:26 am

Greatest I am wrote:What else can be expected from people who adore a genocidal son murdering prick?

Oh, people don't adore you all that much.

Greatest I am wrote:Well, 5,000 honor killings from the Muslim community for their women not kowtowing to their men and traditions is one unjust cause.

If you need more, I think you can research it as you might not accept where I get my information.

Giving examples of what a just cause is NOT, does not constitute what a just cause IS.

I realize philosophy is hard for you, but give it a shot.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25805
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any p

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:46 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:What else can be expected from people who adore a genocidal son murdering prick?

Oh, people don't adore you all that much.

Greatest I am wrote:Well, 5,000 honor killings from the Muslim community for their women not kowtowing to their men and traditions is one unjust cause.

If you need more, I think you can research it as you might not accept where I get my information.

Giving examples of what a just cause is NOT, does not constitute what a just cause IS.

I realize philosophy is hard for you, but give it a shot.


Thanks for your usual ignorance.

Regards
DL
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