If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

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If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby mannequin01 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:16 am

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists? that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:58 am

Yes.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby mannequin01 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:52 am

Not sure if it is that simple.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:21 am

It means that the universe is infinite, without beginning nor end.

No gods.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby encode_decode » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:18 am

    mannequin01

    I believe it would depend on how you define god.

    mannequin01 wrote:Not sure if it is that simple.

    Why do you say that mannequin01?
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    Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

    Postby mannequin01 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:19 am

    Well, lets not fall into the definition of God thing, but rather just refer to it as an intelligent energy source, leaving the personal tailoring behind.


    Why does it seem as so this intelligent energy source is so distant?

    What is your experience with this?
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    Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

    Postby encode_decode » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:46 am

      mannequin01

      mannequin01 wrote:Well, lets not fall into the definition of God thing

      OK, I can live with that.

      mannequin01 wrote:but rather just refer to it as an intelligent energy source, leaving the personal tailoring behind.

      Refer to God as an intelligent energy source - this becomes the basis for conversation then.

      mannequin01 wrote:Why does it seem as so this intelligent energy source is so distant?

      How could it be? Energy and matter are the same thing, just in different states - you are matter and energy.

      mannequin01 wrote:What is your experience with this?

      Sorry, what is my experience with what?

      mannequin01 wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists?

      Umm . . . I don't see it that way. Could you please give me a little more info to convince me? Specifically how it makes that suggestion.

      mannequin01 wrote:that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?

      From what you say, God perpetually exists. The God is intelligent enough to create all others things from itself.
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      Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:25 pm

      mannequin01 wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists? that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?


      The thing which boggles my mind is where did that energy come from?

      If energy cannot be destroyed, why do stars die out and where does that light go when its journey to Earth is finished? What happens to that light which is energy?

      How did this so-called God, for lack of a better word, come to be?
      It almost seems fictitious when you think about it.

      Is it because our minds are not capable of conceiving what is actually the truth of it?

      How can anything always have existed?
      Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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      What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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      Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:45 pm

      Urwrongx1000 wrote:It means that the universe is infinite, without beginning nor end.

      No gods.


      If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, couldn't that mean that our so-called universe, as a universe, or as universes, might not be so infinite?
      It/they might be transformed into a diamond in the rough someday?
      Or one single pearl in one single oyster...
      SAPERE AUDE!


      If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


      What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

      Thomas Nagel


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      Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

      Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:29 pm

      The First Law Of Thermodynamics only applies to what happens within the Universe not to the Universe as such
      Now that does not rule out the possibility of it being infinite only that it would not be the reason as to why it is
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      Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

      Postby encode_decode » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:23 pm

        Arcturus Descending

        The topic of energy is one that has led many people into a state of confusion and thought dispersion.

        Arcturus Descending wrote:
        mannequin01 wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists? that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?

        The thing which boggles my mind is where did that energy come from? Do you mean originally?

        How did this so-called God, for lack of a better word, come to be? What if God always was and always will be?
        It almost seems fictitious when you think about it.

        Is it because our minds are not capable of conceiving what is actually the truth of it? Possibly, but I believe this is just as hard to prove.

        How can anything always have existed? Not anything . . . everything!

        If everything never existed, as opposed to always existing, then we would not be here discussing this.

        Arcturus Descending wrote:If energy cannot be destroyed, why do stars die out and where does that light go when its journey to Earth is finished?
        What happens to that light which is energy? If light is energy and energy cannot be destroyed then it is simply transformed.

        Energy cannot not be destroyed - it can only be transformed. Stars do not die out entirely - but they do go supernova, whereby they eject most of their mass and in some cases possibly all of their mass - this would indicate that the mass left behind is still there - lending abstraction to what a star actually is - for the sake of explanation, a star's mass needs to glow for there to be a star - when this mass no longer glows - the star is not there - but the mass is. The mass remains in the universe.

        Star formation is closely related to planet formation.

        When the light's journey to planet earth has finished it does not go anywhere - it remains in the universe - it is either transferred/transformed into heat through absorption or reflected to be absorbed or further reflected by something else. Light is also capable of dispersion.

        :wink:
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        Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

        Postby encode_decode » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:35 pm

          Arcturus Descending

          Another way of saying what I was saying is as surreptitious57 put it . . .

          Arcturus Descending wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, couldn't that mean that our so-called universe, as a universe, or as universes, might not be so infinite? It/they might be transformed into a diamond in the rough someday? Or one single pearl in one single oyster...

          Thermodynamics: the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy (such as mechanical, electrical, or chemical energy), and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.
          Thank you Google dictionary . . .

          surreptitious57 wrote:The First Law Of Thermodynamics only applies to what happens within the Universe not to the Universe as such
          Now that does not rule out the possibility of it being infinite only that it would not be the reason as to why it is

          Exactly . . . When we speak of anything, we are speaking about things inside of the universe. When we speak of everything, we are speaking of the universe. The universe is not an anything - it is an everything. As to why the universe is - many people have attempted a description through dissatisfaction of not knowing.

          Arcturus Descending I have contemplated your idea of universe transformation many years ago - it provided me with many hours of amusement.

          :D
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:07 pm

          Arc wrote:
          If energy can neither be created nor destroyed couldnt that mean that our so called universe as a universe or as universe might not be so infinite

          Absolute nothing cannot persist so there will always be something rather than nothing but within the Universe individual universes will still die
          The notion of absolute nothing only holds true at the quantum level because so called empty space at the classical level is not actually empty
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby Mowk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:54 am

          "If?", an open or closed system? We're not really sure on that account. Any "If" appears subjective to that uncertainty.

          If the Universe is a closed system then god is not likely. Maybe a god did exist as energy and the matter now in existence is all that is left. Still connected, one, abstractly.
          If the Universe is an open system, well then it's anybodies guess.

          imo: the catbird seat is to hold no particular preference.
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby gib » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:18 pm

          Urwrongx1000 wrote:It could means that the universe is infinite, without beginning nor end.

          No gods.


          I agree with Urwrong here (with my insertion).

          Furthermore, this style of argument is often misused. We are identifying a source of matter and energy for the whole universe and based solely on that, we deem it appropriate to label that source 'God'. This is fine, I suppose, if this is really how you want to define God (i.e. the source of all matter and energy), but people usually mean more than this. The argument is usually carried a lot further than just tacking on a label--it's usually followed up with: therefore, there is a Heaven and Hell, and God loves us, and everything the Bible says is true, etc., etc., etc., which of course is an equivocation. For example, the introduction of an intelligent source of all matter and energy seems to have slipped in? Why? Well, because if we are to identify this source as God, he's gonna have to be intelligent. But a source of matter/energy as such need not possess any intelligence whatsoever.

          In a nutshell, I'm not sure what labeling this source 'God' gives you.
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:26 pm

          mannequin01 wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists? that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?

          We do not really know where the energy comes from. So we do not know either where the universe comes from, why it exists, if it exists (note that „universe“ is a concept) ... and so on. The task of the physicists is not to answer questions like those. Science does not think (cp. Heidegger). Those questions must be answered or at least discussed by philosophers or theologians.

          If there is only matter and energy and if there is convertability of both and if we too consist of both, then the energy may be the godlike one (thus also: the cause/reason for everything else), whereas the matter may be just the other one. If that is true, then God is always everywhere, thus also around you and in you.

          Is that true? What do you think about that?

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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby Alf » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:50 pm

          Are there two realities then, or do both realms belong to the same reality?
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:56 am

          Alf wrote:Are there two realities then, or do both realms belong to the same reality?

          Both realms belong to our world. I would not use the word "reality" in this case, because this word has got too many definitions that are too much controversal.

          This is what Wikipedia wrote introductorily about "reality":

          Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.[1] Reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible. A still broader definition includes that which has existed, exists, or will exist.

          Philosophers, mathematicians, and other ancient and modern thinkers, such as Aristotle, Plato, Frege, Wittgenstein, and Russell, have made a distinction between thought corresponding to reality, coherent abstractions (thoughts of things that are imaginable but not real), and that which cannot even be rationally thought. By contrast existence is often restricted solely to that which has physical existence or has a direct basis in it in the way that thoughts do in the brain.

          Reality is often contrasted with what is imaginary, illusory, delusional, (only) in the mind, dreams, what is false, what is fictional, or what is abstract. At the same time, what is abstract plays a role both in everyday life and in academic research. For instance, causality, virtue, life, and distributive justice are abstract concepts that can be difficult to define, but they are only rarely equated with pure delusions. Both the existence and reality of abstractions are in dispute: one extreme position regards them as mere words; another position regards them as higher truths than less abstract concepts. This disagreement is the basis of the philosophical problem of universals.

          The truth refers to what is real, while falsity refers to what is not. Fictions are considered not real.

          More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality .
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:05 am

          Reality may pertain to things that exist but science makes a distinction between what is real and what can be observed
          Since it only investigates observable phenomena and has absolutely nothing to say about whether or not any of it is real
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:59 am

          surreptitious75 wrote:Reality may pertain to things that exist but science makes a distinction between what is real and what can be observed
          Since it only investigates observable phenomena and has absolutely nothing to say about whether or not any of it is real


          Science speaks loud and clear to the masses via osmosis ... ergo ...if "it" isn't proven by science ... it isn't real/true.
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:27 am

          Arcturus Descending wrote:The thing which boggles my mind is where did that energy come from?


          I can give you a vague idea of that but neither know exactly nor have anything to prove that.

          Arcturus Descending wrote:If energy cannot be destroyed, why do stars die out ?


          That is simple to answer.

          You are slightly misunderstanding the issue here. It is not about energy only but the sum of energy and mass. As both are interchangeable thus their total sum always stand constant, though their ratio in that sum changes.

          Arcturus Descending wrote:and where does that light go when its journey to Earth is finished?


          When lights hits any object, it either increases the mass of that object or energy in the form of heat.

          Arcturus Descending wrote:How can anything always have existed?


          Because, as we know that we or any other force can neither create or destroy anything, but merely change its ratio of mass and energy.

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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:37 am

          Arcturus Descending wrote:
          Urwrongx1000 wrote:It means that the universe is infinite, without beginning nor end.

          No gods.


          If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, couldn't that mean that our so-called universe, as a universe, or as universes, might not be so infinite?
          It/they might be transformed into a diamond in the rough someday?
          Or one single pearl in one single oyster...


          That is true. In a sense, universe is not infinite.

          But, the thing here to understand is that the total sum of the all the ingredients is finite. But, being interchangeable, the ratio its ingredients in that grand total always kept changing. And, space ( or expanding quality ) is also one those ingredients. Thus, even if the universe is expanding ( which i do not think is true), it does not mean that is not finite.

          with love,
          sanjay
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:29 pm

          pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
          surreptitious75 wrote:Reality may pertain to things that exist but science makes a distinction between what is real and what can be observed
          Since it only investigates observable phenomena and has absolutely nothing to say about whether or not any of it is real


          Science speaks loud and clear to the masses via osmosis ... ergo ...if "it" isn't proven by science ... it isn't real/true.

          This is what Wikipedia says about "scientific realism":

          Scientific realism is, at the most general level, the view that the world described by science (perhaps ideal science) is the real world, as it is, independent of what we might take it to be. Within philosophy of science, it is often framed as an answer to the question "how is the success of science to be explained?" The debate over what the success of science involves centers primarily on the status of entities that are not directly observable discussed by scientific theories. Generally, those who are scientific realists state that one can make reliable claims about these entities (viz., that they have the same ontological status) as directly observable entities, as opposed to instrumentalism. The most used and studied scientific theories today state more or less the truth.
          Source.

          It is not expectable to get a proper definition for "reality" from science - especially because of the fact that science itself is more idealistic than realistic (see above: "ideal science").
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:18 pm

          pilgrim seeker tom wrote:
          Science speaks loud and clear to the masses via osmosis ... ergo ... if it isnt proven by science ... it isnt real / true

          Science cannot prove anything only disprove it and it also has nothing to say about whether or not anything is real
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          Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

          Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:34 pm

          What branch of knowledge decides what is real and what is the reasoning behind the decision?
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