If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Two different predictions regarding one and the same event can be equally objective in epistemological sense. This is not possible with ontological objectivity. Here's an example. Suppose that both John and Mary observed swans in their past and that each one of them observed exactly 100 swans. Suppose that John observed 100 white swans while Mary observed 50 white and 50 black swans. What they want to do now is predict what color will be the next swan they observe. John will say white, Mary will say either black or white (she will claim that the specific outcome is uncertain.) Both claims are epistemologically objective because both are derived from evidence and because both are equally informed (i.e. the number of observations they are based on is equal.) If the number of observations was different and if either Mary or John had an experience that was a superset of another's (e.g. if Mary's observations contained all of John's one hundred observations of white swans + some more e.g. one hundred observations of black swans) then you could say there is a viewpoint that is more epistemologically objective than the other. But as it is, this is impossible. Not to mention that it is impossible to determine what experience people have in common other than through approximation.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phyllo » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:03 pm

Once Mary shows John evidence of the existence of black swans, he will adjust his thinking accordingly.
The exact distribution of white and black swans is something studied by natural scientists. If John and Mary familiarize themselves with the research, then they will be able to make more accurate predictions. That research, if done properly, is objective truth about white and black swans.

Going beyond your own personal experience is what education and learning is all about. You can dip into a reservoir of knowledge already built by millions of people over countless years.

If you rely purely on your own experience, then you will be ignorant about most things.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:56 pm

Once Mary shows John evidence of the existence of black swans, he will adjust his thinking accordingly.


Yes. The consequence would be a shared viewpoint. Not "objective truth". But this is assuming that such a feat -- showing evidence -- is possible. Being a witness of a near-perfect murder would be an example when reaching agreement by showing evidence is impossible.

The exact distribution of white and black swans is something studied by natural scientists. If John and Mary familiarize themselves with the research, then they will be able to make more accurate predictions. That research, if done properly, is objective truth about white and black swans.


You can call it any way you want but that is nothing more than a shared viewpoint that is informed by other people's research.

Going beyond your own personal experience is what education and learning is all about. You can dip into a reservoir of knowledge already built by millions of people over countless years.


That would be expanding or enriching your personal experience. Provided that you properly assimilate (i.e. understand) other people's knowledge. Otherwise it would be merely a change in your personal experience.

Either way, there is no such a thing as going beyond personal experience.

If you rely purely on your own experience, then you will be ignorant about most things.


There is also such a thing as too much education. You must control the inflow of new information. Otherwise you end up being confused. More isn't automatically better.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Yes. The consequence would be a shared viewpoint. Not "objective truth".
Yes, "objective truth" has to be "a shared viewpoint". That's a necessary but not sufficient requirement for objective truth. Two subjective truths can be a shared viewpoint ... Mary likes chocolate ice cream and she gives John a taste and he also likes it.
That would be expanding or enriching your personal experience. Provided that you properly assimilate (i.e. understand) other people's knowledge. Otherwise it would be merely a change in your personal experience.

Either way, there is no such a thing as going beyond personal experience.
Maybe you define it that way but you're in the minority. Going to Paris and walking down the streets can be called a personal experience of Paris but reading somebody's description of walking the streets of Paris would not be considered a personal experience of Paris. What sense would it make to equate the two?
There is also such a thing as too much education. You must control the inflow of new information. Otherwise you end up being confused. More isn't automatically better.
I have noticed a strong anti-education sentiment on ILP. I find it surprising. :shock:
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:50 pm

I have noticed a strong anti-education sentiment on ILP.

How so?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:41 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
I have noticed a strong anti-education sentiment on ILP.

How so?
Education is often described as indoctrination, manipulation or brainwashing. Education is viewed as a means of control used by the "overlords".

Unlearning what has been learned is often praised.

Instead of consulting existing textbooks, there is a preference given to "working it out on your own". In fact, one sees a refusal to use the books even to verify very basic facts.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:21 pm

phyllo wrote:
Yes. The consequence would be a shared viewpoint. Not "objective truth".
Yes, "objective truth" has to be "a shared viewpoint". That's a necessary but not sufficient requirement for objective truth. Two subjective truths can be a shared viewpoint ... Mary likes chocolate ice cream and she gives John a taste and he also likes it.


You need to prove that a shared viewpoint is can be something more than just a shared viewpoint.
Which you fail miserably . . . over and over again.

That would be expanding or enriching your personal experience. Provided that you properly assimilate (i.e. understand) other people's knowledge. Otherwise it would be merely a change in your personal experience.

Either way, there is no such a thing as going beyond personal experience.
Maybe you define it that way but you're in the minority. Going to Paris and walking down the streets can be called a personal experience of Paris but reading somebody's description of walking the streets of Paris would not be considered a personal experience of Paris. What sense would it make to equate the two?


Reading is a personal experience too. But not a personal experience of what is being read.
In other words, reading someone's description of walking the streets of Paris is a personal experience.
But of reading and not of walking the streets of Paris.
There is NO going BEYOND personal experience.

There is also such a thing as too much education. You must control the inflow of new information. Otherwise you end up being confused. More isn't automatically better.
I have noticed a strong anti-education sentiment on ILP. I find it surprising. :shock:


So you're denying there is such a thing as too much education?
You can throw any quantity of information at anyone and they can be realistically expected to make sense of all of it in no time?
You think that people can't be destroyed by being forced to process too much information?
You think that people shouldn't control the inflow of information but should simply surrender to whatever quantity of information is thrown at them?
Why? Because you want everyone to agree? Because you do not want people to disagree with each other?
Noone should have their own perspective? Instead, everyone should have one and the same perspective and pretend to be "objective"?
You think that people should spend most of their time reading books and listening to what other people have to say instead of directly engaging reality?
Last edited by Magnus Anderson on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:44 pm

phyllo wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
I have noticed a strong anti-education sentiment on ILP.

How so?
Education is often described as indoctrination, manipulation or brainwashing. Education is viewed as a means of control used by the "overlords".

Unlearning what has been learned is often praised.

Instead of consulting existing textbooks, there is a preference given to "working it out on your own". In fact, one sees a refusal to use the books even to verify very basic facts.

Hands-on experience outstrides textbook material...always and today's schools lack those experiential aspects even more with the integration of computers providing all viable experiences/evidences.

The USA public education system is bad since it is engineered to service lower IQ's with only the basics with English writing/reading, basic math, and computer familiarity.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:50 pm

Hands-on experience outstrides textbook material...always and today's schools lack those experiential aspects even more with the integration of computers providing all viable experiences/evidences.
That's great but you don't have enough time in life to reproduce the millions of man-hours of accumulated human experience.
The USA public education system is bad since it is engineered to service lower IQ's with only the basics with English writing/reading, basic math, and computer familiarity.
That's unfortunate. Go to college or university.
No wait, that's also brainwashing.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:55 pm

That's great but you don't have enough time in life to reproduce the millions of man-hours of accumulated human experience.


And you don't have to.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:51 pm

You need to prove that a shared viewpoint is can be something more than just a shared viewpoint.
Which you fail miserably . . . over and over again.
I don't see you proving anything.
Reading is a personal experience too. But not a personal experience of what is being read.
In other words, reading someone's description of walking the streets of Paris is a personal experience.
But of reading and not of walking the streets of Paris.
There is NO going BEYOND personal experience.
Are you now going to claim that's what you meant in your previous post? That "reading" is the "personal experience" that you acquire?
So you're denying there is such a thing as too much education?
You can throw any quantity of information at anyone and they can be realistically expected to make sense of all of it in no time?
You think that people can't be destroyed by being forced to process too much information?
You think that people shouldn't control the inflow of information but should simply surrender to whatever quantity of information is thrown at them?
Why? Because you want everyone to agree? Because you do not want people to disagree with each other?
Noone should have their own perspective? Instead, everyone should have one and the same perspective and pretend to be "objective"?
You think that people should spend most of their time reading books and listening to what other people have to say instead of directly engaging reality?
A bunch of leading questions.
I'm surprised that you did not ask "when I stopped beating my wife".
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:04 pm

You cannot become a critical thinker without first acquiring a basic education
Once you have that then you can start questioning every thing but not before
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:02 pm

Anderson wrote:
You are denying there is such a thing as too much education
It is not education that there is too much of but information

You can throw any quantity of information at anyone and they can be realistically expected to make sense of all of it in no time
No of course not because the processing and understanding of information is not something that can just happen instantaneously

You think that people cant be destroyed by being forced to process too much information
Maybe but that would be at the extreme end of the spectrum so not very representative

You think that people shouldnt control the inflow of information but should simply surrender to whatever quantity of information is thrown at them
Obviously the flow of information has to be controlled because otherwise it becomes difficult if not impossible to process it in any meaningful way

Because you want everyone to agree. Because you do not want people to disagree with each other
Completely untrue because I actually think that it is better if everyone disagrees with each other

No one should have their own perspective. Instead everyone should have one and the same perspective and pretend to be objective
What you have just described there is very idealistic and therefore entirely unreal because it is just not how human beings function

You think that people should spend most of their time reading books and listening to what other people have to say instead of directly engaging reality
The best books are actually about reality but everyone is free to read as much or as little as they want and also engage reality in anyway they want to
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:18 am

Phyllo wrote:I don't see you proving anything.


What do I have to prove? That "objectively true" is either a meaningless expression or merely another way of saying "experienced" and "informed"?

Are you now going to claim that's what you meant in your previous post? That "reading" is the "personal experience" that you acquire?


Are you now going to claim that that's NOT what I meant in all of my previous posts?

Let's just say that you misunderstood what I said. If you don't believe it then I don't think I will have enough patience to prove it to you. So take it or leave it.

A bunch of leading questions.
I'm surprised that you did not ask "when I stopped beating my wife".


I am sorry if you feel overwhelmed by my questions. You are not obligated to respond to them. Nonetheless, a lot of what you say, and most importantly, the fact that you responded to my claim that "there is such a thing as too much education" by accusing me of being against education in general, leaves me with no choice but to conclude that you are one of those modern types. I am not going to elaborate any further -- it would be too exhausting to do so.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:32 pm

Philosophically, it is hypocritical and dishonest if one claims that energy can be eternal (re: "neither created nor destroyed") but God cannot. Energy is defined as "the ability to do work" and it seems that this is something distinct from consciousness, which, as the evidence of our existence plainly demonstrates, is subjective experience. This it may be that God is not energy, but consciousness.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:33 pm

mannequin01 wrote:If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, doesn't that law suggest that a god exists? that God is that energy and all comes from it as a original source and it continues to perpetually exist?

Seems like a logical fallacy.

Consciousness does not violate C.O.E.

Energy can flow indefinitely until it happens to morph into forms compatible with conscious experience.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:51 pm

Seems like a logical fallacy.

Consciousness does not violate C.O.E.

Energy can flow indefinitely until it happens to morph into forms compatible with conscious experience.


We can't know if energy, if thought to be something that is not or is something other than consciousness, exists, as the only form of existence that produces proof of its existence is consciousness. Therefore, we can't know that energy exists or if a magic exists in which something that isn't subjective experience inexplicably morphs into subjective experience.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:26 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
Seems like a logical fallacy.

Consciousness does not violate C.O.E.

Energy can flow indefinitely until it happens to morph into forms compatible with conscious experience.


We can't know if energy, if thought to be something that is not or is something other than consciousness, exists, as the only form of existence that produces proof of its existence is consciousness. Therefore, we can't know that energy exists or if a magic exists in which something that isn't subjective experience inexplicably morphs into subjective experience.


This is a giant, giant, logical fallacy.

Energy is the action of movement. The action transfers in inverse relation to it's mass. This is because the action is directly related to mass, if an object contains 1 unit of energy inside 1 unit of mass, and it transfers the energy to an object with 100 units of mass, the resultant energy in each unit of mass will be 1/100.

Consciousness provides proof of other things, beyond only proving the existence of itself. That is the nature of consciousness. Consciousness is not actually a thing that exists, it is simply an actuator of things that exist. It is silly to say that we can't know energy exists.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:03 am

Consciousness cannot indicate or prove the existence of something other than itself. One only mistakenly believes it can. It, being subjective experience, cannot indicate the existence of something that is not subjective experience.
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Re: If energy can neither be created nor destroyed...

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:56 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:Consciousness cannot indicate or prove the existence of something other than itself. One only mistakenly believes it can. It, being subjective experience, cannot indicate the existence of something that is not subjective experience.


Wrong. Consciousness is not a "self". It is a process which INDICATES the existence of things. Subjective experience=the indication of existent things within the range of detection within the bounds of subjective experience.
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