Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

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Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:20 am

The term "social engineering" animated my morning readings. The term struck a chord ... seems it represents something i want to think about.

The only memory I have for this particular term is it's use by one of the Rothchilds ... when commenting on Mao Zedong's China, Apparently this particular Rothchild said ... publicly ... Mao Zedong's China was an interesting experiment in 'social engineering'.

Perhaps interesting to Rothschild because it explicitly and intentionally excluded religion ... at least on the surface. Rothchild's comment echoes the sentiments of some 17th century European intellectuals. Apparently after learning about China ... Cathay at that time ... many European intellectuals questioned how such a sophisticated culture and civilization could develop without religion. ... again ... at least on the surface. Obviously, the Western architects of social engineering view religion as a tool of choice.

Seems the Western psyche remains unaware of Chinese religion ... even though it stretches back more than 4,000 years. For Westerners 'religion' necessarily involves a hierarchy of people ... a widely dispersed ... yet centralized ... institution ... a rigid dogma ... and so on. All of these elements are not part of Chinese religion ... therefore Chinese religion does not exist in the Western psyche.

Moving on ...

Decided to visit the local KFC ... for breakfast ... and at least in part ... for some time alone to think about this notion of 'social engineering'.

As if right on cue the universe provided an experience to amplify my contemplation. This morning the local KFC implemented substantial changes in product delivery for walk in traffic. The changes are knew to the local KFC yet I witnessed the same changes to the KFC in Jia Xing a year ago.

Observing the customers trying to adapt to these changes it occurred to me ... the essence of social engineering is "do as I say or don't eat"

Today's architects of global social engineering seem to be working overtime ... they seem to be in a hurry to implement the desired social changes ... why? ... who knows eh!

Technology as well as religion appear to be the main drivers ... seems technology is intended to replace "eye contact" with "digital contact" ... also evident in the KFC's new delivery mechanisms ... customers can place their orders from their smart phones and go directly to the 'pick up' station ... bypassing the clerk.

Emerging thought ... what if the current man-made social engineering is a precursor ... harbinger ... of imminent changes in human consciousness ...

Gene Rodenberry imagined a future where Star Trek’s Spock could mind meld with others, more of us are now becoming aware of our capacity not only to intuit each other’s thoughts and emotions, but also to consciously think and create together without communicating through our five senses.



Perhaps an alien community is looking down at us and laughing ... look at those dummies ... they think they're running the show!
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:49 am

Consciousness.jpg
​Consciousness is unlimited ~ beyond space and time.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby Xunzian » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:06 am

I strongly reject this sort of Orientalism.

The Sinic philosophical traditions are long and have plenty of jargon. I've certainly been guilty of falling into jargoneering myself.

That doesn't mean people aren't describing remarkably similar things. That isn't to say that all religions are one. I think that is naive and overly compromising. But I do believe that human beings are basically the same all over and we're all encumbered in similar ways.

It's a fun walk and I recommend everyone do it. In Istanbul, you can walk from St Irene's to the Hagia Sophia and see the starkness of Iconoclasm vs an opulent Orthodoxy. Grab a bus or a taxi and you can see the Chora if you want to get really fancy.

You can, basically shot-for-shot, recreate the same experience in Beijing. Like St Irene's, the Confucian Temple is radially stark. Instead of whitewash, it's stone steles with names of people who passed the examination. From there, it's a short walk to the Lama temple which is pretty freaking impressive -- it's more Chora than Hagia Sophia but comparisons can rhyme. Because take a quick day trip and you've got the summer palace with one of the largest Buddhas in the world all glittery and golden. Ucci will give me all sorts of shit but the Hagia Sophia is a much better experience. But that said, holy smokes is the Summer Palace impressive.

They've all got the same tensions because they all have the same humans.

Communism with Chinese characteristics is really just Communism. Coming from a privileged background, Marx was naive. The mass line starts with the peasant class, not with the merchant class.

But it's easy to get lost in orthodoxy and theory crafting. So we forget that sometimes.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:42 am

Code: Select all
I strongly reject this sort of Orientalism


1) Assume you are referring to Far Eastern Orientalism. ???
2) The remainder of your post is an exposition of your opening statement. ???
3) Your opening statement stems from my comments about Western perceptions vis a vis Chinese religion. ???
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby Alf » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:59 pm

Is the Chinese religion represented much in China today?

Have you visited China?
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:57 pm

Alf wrote:Is the Chinese religion represented much in China today?

Have you visited China?


My experience living in China ... almost 12 years and counting ... suggests the Chinese religion remains very much alive In rural China ... not so much in urban China for the obvious reason that Western culture has diluted it's influence.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:11 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Alf wrote:Is the Chinese religion represented much in China today?

Have you visited China?


My experience living in China ... almost 12 years and counting ... suggests the Chinese religion remains very much alive In rural China

Interesting.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:... not so much in urban China for the obvious reason that Western culture has diluted it's influence.

Yes.

What about the future of this old religion?
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:28 am

What about the future of this old religion?


Having survived more than 5,000 years of persecution ... from within and without ... points to survival into the future.

What's interesting is the recent "seeping" of Chinese religion into Western thought and culture ... no doubt triggered in part by the massive Chinese diaspora. eg Celebrations of Chinese New Year are growing in terms of quantity and quality.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:53 am

About 2,500 years ago an epoch transformation occurred within humanity ...

1) Socrates/Plato challenged ancient Greek mythology

2) Buddhism was born.

3) isaiah was calling for a return to ancient Judaism ... masked as a return to Jerusalem from exile to Babylon.

4) Confucius was laying the foundation for a return to ancient Chinese culture/religion.

5) India ... ??? ... must have a similar story.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:54 am

Are we in the midst of a second epoch transformation and can't see the forest for the trees?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:05 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:About 2,500 years ago an epoch transformation occurred within humanity ...

1) Socrates/Plato challenged ancient Greek mythology

2) Buddhism was born.

3) isaiah was calling for a return to ancient Judaism ... masked as a return to Jerusalem from exile to Babylon.

4) Confucius was laying the foundation for a return to ancient Chinese culture/religion.

5) India ... ??? ... must have a similar story.

Axial Age.

Axial Age (also Axis Age, from German: Achsenzeit) is a term coined by German philosopher Karl Jaspers after Victor von Strauß (1859) and Ernst von Lasaulx (1870)[2] in the sense of a "pivotal age" characterizing the period of ancient history from about the 8th to the 3rd century BC.

Then, according to Jaspers' concept, new ways of thinking appeared in Persia, India, China and the Greco-Roman world in religion and philosophy, in a striking parallel development, without any obvious direct cultural contact between all of the participating Eurasian cultures.

The concept was introduced in his book Vom Ursprung und Ziel der Geschichte (The Origin and Goal of History), published in 1949. Jaspers claimed that the Axial Age should be viewed as an objective empirical fact of history, independently of religious considerations.[4] He identified a number of key thinkers as having had a profound influence on future philosophies and religions, and identified characteristics common to each area from which those thinkers emerged. Jaspers held up this age as unique, and one to which the rest of the history of human thought might be compared. Jaspers' approach to the culture of the middle of the first millennium BC has been adopted by other scholars and academics, and has become a point of discussion in the history of religion.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby Alf » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:39 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Alf wrote:Is the Chinese religion represented much in China today?

Have you visited China?


My experience living in China ... almost 12 years and counting ... suggests the Chinese religion remains very much alive In rural China ... not so much in urban China for the obvious reason that Western culture has diluted it's influence.

China will become even more urban. So the religion of the Chinese ancestors will perhaps vanish.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby tentative » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:38 am

Can Chinese "religion" even be defined by comparison with western ideas of religion? Ancestor worship goes back as far as their written history - and probably a lot further back than that. Ancestral spirits interceding for the individual was and still is a powerful part of a Chinese daily life. To be sure, the overlays of Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism have been used by the powerful to facilitate their notions of social engineering, but the core "religion" remains the same throughout Chinese history. The spirit world isn't some abstract "man behind the curtains", it is close up and personal. It doesn't seem likely that it will ever go away.
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Re: Religion as a Social Engineering Tool

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:12 am

tentative wrote:Can Chinese "religion" even be defined by comparison with western ideas of religion?


IMO ... yes ... the 'kernel' is the same ... the words, symbols, dogma etc are incomparable on the surface only. The best English language article on the history of thought in China I've read is here ...

http://thoughtsofamisfit.weebly.com/his ... china.html

The most striking difference is the absence of hierarchy, institution and dogma in China ... yet the Chinese 'religion' has survived longer than most other religions have been around.

For example ... Chinese children are taught 'religion' expressed as "Dao De" before they go to school. While almost all Chinese people are familiar with the expression and it's intended meaning ... seems even educated Chinese people don't connect the expression with Lao Tzu. Lao Tzu's philosophy is centered on two words ... 1) Dao 2) De.

tentative wrote:The spirit world isn't some abstract "man behind the curtains", it is close up and personal. It doesn't seem likely that it will ever go away.


Very Confucian statement. While Confucius counseled his followers to keep spirits at a healthy distance in their daily life ... he also insisted when engaging in rituals involving spirits, such as ancestor worship, to act as though the person was present ... otherwise don't bother with the ritual.

Seems the practice of Western religion(s) may be drifting towards the Chinese model. The churches are empty ... doesn't mean people stopped believing.
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