Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as their i

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Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as their i

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as their inheritance?

The huge need for debt, primarily from infrastructure cost, --- to deal with sea level changes as well as the many other costs desertification will bring, including humanitarian costs, --- will not add up to this generation being kind to our future kin, in terms of inheritance.

I was brought up where we were taught to leave a place in a better condition than what we found.

Were you?

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:05 pm

Passing debt off to children is basically child-slavery and or prostitution, selling daughters as sex-slaves. It's no different.

Being born $100,000 in debt, $1,000,000 or higher, is basically one of the worst things you can do. Call it "immoral" or "evil" if you like.

Now look at the u.s. national debt.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Passing debt off to children is basically child-slavery and or prostitution, selling daughters as sex-slaves. It's no different.

Being born $100,000 in debt, $1,000,000 or higher, is basically one of the worst things you can do. Call it "immoral" or "evil" if you like.

Now look at the u.s. national debt.


There are many countries in the same position. Shame on us all.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Morality and Economics in one, can a price tag be put on a life, or a lifetime? It sure can.

The "free world" doesn't look so free when the debt is shown its numerical value. Maybe someday, in the not-so-distant future, the slave pens and slave auctioning tables will be reopened.

The "free market" is an oxymoron. Everything is for sale, sooner or later it seems.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Sanguinus » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:45 am

Greatest I am wrote:The huge need for debt, primarily from infrastructure cost, --- to deal with sea level changes as well as the many other costs desertification will bring, including humanitarian costs, --- will not add up to this generation being kind to our future kin, in terms of inheritance.

All these new pressures force our children to eek out their own endowment, beyond what we can bequeath.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Gloominary » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

We'd all be a lot better off if we produced/consumed a lot less, for our sake and the sake of future generations.
Consumerism is sin.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:00 am

Egos will be the death of everyone.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:11 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Morality and Economics in one, can a price tag be put on a life, or a lifetime? It sure can.

The "free world" doesn't look so free when the debt is shown its numerical value. Maybe someday, in the not-so-distant future, the slave pens and slave auctioning tables will be reopened.

The "free market" is an oxymoron. Everything is for sale, sooner or later it seems.


I agree and see that in Islam that slavery is alive and well.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:12 pm

People in America who make less than 6 figures are generally slaves as well.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:13 pm

Sanguinius wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:The huge need for debt, primarily from infrastructure cost, --- to deal with sea level changes as well as the many other costs desertification will bring, including humanitarian costs, --- will not add up to this generation being kind to our future kin, in terms of inheritance.

All these new pressures force our children to eek out their own endowment, beyond what we can bequeath.


Sure, but they will have to work a lot harder because this generation does not want to do the work of cleaning up the mess we are passing up to them.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:17 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:People in America who make less than 6 figures are generally slaves as well.


With nearly the whole wealth of the world being owned by just a few people, I would say we are all slaves in a sense.

Some of us are just better kept slaves.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/r ... -1.2500284

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:21 pm

Gloominary wrote:We'd all be a lot better off if we produced/consumed a lot less, for our sake and the sake of future generations.


This is true but if we disrupt the flow too much, we might shoot ourselves in the employment foot.

I think we should stay the course in most products other than the meat industry that is really screwing up the environment. If you have a chance, google the movie Cowspiracy. It is an eye opener.

I think we should continue to consume other non-neat products but bump up the price so that we can reduce our pollution.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:24 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Egos will be the death of everyone.


Or the savior, if we can focus on duty and honor.

We mostly never work those into our ego, especially men, who seem to have forgotten their duty to family and the future and the honor of thinking of others that will follow us.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:30 pm

To DL,


Nowadays I'm linking debt and money with blood, "blood-debt". It's not just money. It's many other factors and choices, consequences and responsibilities, that parents and ancestors pass-off or dump upon further generations. Kicking the can down the road. A woman sluts around and has different children from different dead beat men. Those children grow, suffer, and want somebody to blame in their lives, but remain unfulfilled. The pollution flows downstream. Eventually it will be recycled, but by who and when? Who will pay the final price? Who will bear the final suffering and death, for other people's irresponsibility?

Blood is the ultimately currency of life. All debts can be reduced to it. All mistakes accounted for, by anybody, anytime, for a lifetime. People do pass on their debts to their unborn.

The ignorance and weakness of every parent, becomes the burden of every child.


Speaking pragmatically, leaving an inheritance for children is the goal, to allow "Privileges" to your children that you-yourself never had but always hoped for.

Ideals, hopes, and dreams are passed on too.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:46 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
To DL,


Nowadays I'm linking debt and money with blood, "blood-debt". It's not just money. It's many other factors and choices, consequences and responsibilities, that parents and ancestors pass-off or dump upon further generations. Kicking the can down the road. A woman sluts around and has different children from different dead beat men. Those children grow, suffer, and want somebody to blame in their lives, but remain unfulfilled. The pollution flows downstream. Eventually it will be recycled, but by who and when? Who will pay the final price? Who will bear the final suffering and death, for other people's irresponsibility?

Blood is the ultimately currency of life. All debts can be reduced to it. All mistakes accounted for, by anybody, anytime, for a lifetime. People do pass on their debts to their unborn.

The ignorance and weakness of every parent, becomes the burden of every child.


Well put.

Speaking pragmatically, leaving an inheritance for children is the goal, to allow "Privileges" to your children


In a sense. The privilege to find a world that their parents have not fouled up.

The further privilege of being able to take pride in ones parents instead of shame for the example of good actions and intent left by the parents.

Every person is driven by instincts to be the fittest of our species. The fittest is usually denoted by his cooperation and ability to gain friends through that cooperation. I see it as a privilege to be able to have my children see me do that so that they might learn from it. The fittest will have some monetary inheritance to pass along as well if he has excelled at cooperation.

that you-yourself never had but always hoped for.


I had the best of both worlds. A small amount of cash and a good example of cooperation.

Ideals, hopes, and dreams are passed on too.


Absolutely, but we should also pass up the sense of duty and honor that most of us do not seem to have much of.

Take the duty of men to their wives and children. We presently have half of all households manned by single women who mostly end in having to chase deadbeat dads. That is not exactly giving the young men a high bar to reach.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby phyllo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:20 pm

Take the duty of men to their wives and children. We presently have half of all households manned by single women who mostly end in having to chase deadbeat dads.
No.

In the USA, 26% of children are living with a single parent.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/ ... ily-today/

72.9% of children, who are supposed to get child support payments from fathers, are getting it.
http://brandongaille.com/23-deadbeat-dads-statistics/
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:24 pm

phyllo wrote:
Take the duty of men to their wives and children. We presently have half of all households manned by single women who mostly end in having to chase deadbeat dads.
No.

In the USA, 26% of children are living with a single parent.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/ ... ily-today/

72.9% of children, who are supposed to get child support payments from fathers, are getting it.
http://brandongaille.com/23-deadbeat-dads-statistics/


I prefer to listen to known experts to get the real picture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gAu1i6aChs

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Carleas » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:39 pm

Debt isn't all bad. If I own a million dollar house on which I still owe $200k, leaving that house and that debt to my children is a net gain for them. If I own a business that produces millions in profits but also has millions in debt, that's still a net positive inheritance for my children.

Similarly if a nation or society borrows to pay for infrastructure, research, defense, they may produce a net surplus inheritance for the next generation.

Plenty of very wealthy people carry debt. Plenty of very wealthy people take on debt to buy stock and other investment assets. It's often a financially sound decision, and leaves them (and their descendants) better off.

The attitude of the poor towards debt is understandable, given that they often don't have access to the kind of borrowing that will yield positive returns. They also often borrow not to invest, but to make ends meet, which is virtually guaranteed to leave you less well off. But that's just misusing debt, it's not a problem inherent to debt.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Greatest I am » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:47 pm

Carleas wrote:Debt isn't all bad. If I own a million dollar house on which I still owe $200k, leaving that house and that debt to my children is a net gain for them. If I own a business that produces millions in profits but also has millions in debt, that's still a net positive inheritance for my children.

Similarly if a nation or society borrows to pay for infrastructure, research, defense, they may produce a net surplus inheritance for the next generation.

Plenty of very wealthy people carry debt. Plenty of very wealthy people take on debt to buy stock and other investment assets. It's often a financially sound decision, and leaves them (and their descendants) better off.

The attitude of the poor towards debt is understandable, given that they often don't have access to the kind of borrowing that will yield positive returns. They also often borrow not to invest, but to make ends meet, which is virtually guaranteed to leave you less well off. But that's just misusing debt, it's not a problem inherent to debt.


If you can see something good in leaving a debt, in terms of a dying ecosystem to your children then good for you.

A half paid house debt is good, but not when the house is build on quicksand.

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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Carleas » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:07 pm

Greatest I am wrote:If you can see something good in leaving a debt, in terms of a dying ecosystem to your children then good for you.

You would agree that leaving more value to your descendants is better, right? My point is that there are situations where the way to maximize the value you will leave to your children is to also leave them debt. If that's so, if there are cases where you must take on debt and leave that debt to your children in order to do the right thing by your children, then debt can't be inherently bad.

Sure, if we aren't getting anything for it then debt is bad, but that's an implausible scenario. Most debt is produced in exchange for valuable goods or services. Most houses aren't on quicksand.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:16 pm

Carleas wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:If you can see something good in leaving a debt, in terms of a dying ecosystem to your children then good for you.

You would agree that leaving more value to your descendants is better, right? My point is that there are situations where the way to maximize the value you will leave to your children is to also leave them debt. If that's so, if there are cases where you must take on debt and leave that debt to your children in order to do the right thing by your children, then debt can't be inherently bad.

Sure, if we aren't getting anything for it then debt is bad, but that's an implausible scenario. Most debt is produced in exchange for valuable goods or services. Most houses aren't on quicksand.

You seem to be missing the point. The fact that gain might require the acceptance of necessary evil does not mean that it alone isn't evil. The total is acceptable because the good outweighs the evil. But the evil portion is still the evil portion. One would have been better off if the evil was not there and yet the good still was. And in this example, "debt" versus gain, is the "evil".
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Carleas » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:54 pm

Let me put it another way, to more directly address what seems to be the claim of this thread: inherited debt is not prima facie evidence of a wrong to subsequent generations. In many cases the best way to generate value is to take on debt, so the existence of debt can also be evidence of value creation. Indeed, the absence of debt will often be a sign of bad management and under-performance.

The suggestion in this thread is that e.g. the existence of the national debt is evidence that one generation is leaving less to subsequent generations than it might have. But that ignores the fact that debt is generated in exchange for something else, and that something else will often be worth more and generate more value than the debt generates in liabilities.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:07 pm

Carleas wrote:Let me put it another way, to more directly address what seems to be the claim of this thread: inherited debt is not prima facie evidence of a wrong to subsequent generations. In many cases the best way to generate value is to take on debt, so the existence of debt can also be evidence of value creation. Indeed, the absence of debt will often be a sign of bad management and under-performance.

The suggestion in this thread is that e.g. the existence of the national debt is evidence that one generation is leaving less to subsequent generations than it might have. But that ignores the fact that debt is generated in exchange for something else, and that something else will often be worth more and generate more value than the debt generates in liabilities.

It all depends upon the goal or purpose. If your purpose is to enslave the entire populations, especially the upcoming youth, then certainly, debt is a wonderful, "god-given" blessing to enrichment and glory.

He is talking about usury and its enslaving residue. Usury is teasing with the notion of personal temporary progress while, with the unseen hand, robbing the future of any hope. It is largely the foundation of modern day Judaism and the old Christian "Devil" - teasing nations into eventual poverty, enslavement, and destitution.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:56 pm

If you owe 200k on a 1mil house mortgage then you don't own the house, the bank does.
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Re: Is our debt what we want to leave to our children as the

Postby Carleas » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:01 pm

James, caricature is a weak form of argument, and even if it succeeds rhetorically, it does not help to discover truth.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:If you owe 200k on a 1mil house mortgage then you don't own the house, the bank does.

That depends on the state, but even where the bank is held to own it, they can only force a sale for market price and have to give you what's left over after they take what they're owed. In any jurisdiction, you're $800k in the black.
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