Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Tue May 30, 2017 1:18 am

More intentional deflection Phyllo?
I don't know what you mean. I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by "true believer". I have been doing that consistently in all my posts in this thread.
You raised the flagellation issue with me before ... my feelings haven't changed ... I have no urge to punish ... mutilate ... my body ... yet ... I understand why other people have/do ... different strokes for different folks.
This is the part that I don't get :
Believing in God and consuming, or engaging in politics or economics is "hypocritical" but flagellation is just "different strokes for different folks". (And presumably flagellation is done by "true believers".)

Why isn't consumerism, politics or economics just "different strokes for different folks"?

Take running a business, for example : A business might raise the standard of living for thousands of people. So running a business and believing in God are not exactly incompatible. Yet you and quite a few other religious people seem to frown on it.
Seems there is little or no hope of bringing e-exchanges to a discussion of personal experiences as they unfold ... ergo today's personal experiences are more relevant than yesterdays ... despite their being connected by a thread(s).

Endless discussion of the experiences of "other individuals" always seems to lead to a dead end street.
You can see farther by standing on the shoulders of giants. Why start from scratch when others have already done so much hard work that you can use to your advantage?

That's the entire point of education. If we had to rely only on our own experiences, then we would still be living in caves and trying to figure out how to make a fire.

If someone did something well in the past ... learn from it.

If someone did something poorly in the past ... learn from it.

It's anything but a dead-end.



APPEND after a search of the forum:
You raised the flagellation issue with me before ...
Odd. I haven't used the word 'flagellation' on ILP until this thread. Nor did I use 'mortify' or 'mortification'.

I can't imagine what you are referring to. :-?
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue May 30, 2017 3:22 am

It appears my senility is more advanced than I figured. :lol:

I apologize.

OTH ... I am yet again amazed by the mystery of 'spirit' ... my fickle memory lead me to this "gem"

by phyllo » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:09 pm

I was not talking about general knowledge. I was talking about the knowledge of the existence and nature of god. [b]Common daily experience and reason lead to certain conclusions about god.
[/b]

Phyllo ... seems you are making progress ... progress as in breaking the chains that bind you ... I encourage you to be patient

K: I for one can't tell if hell has frozen over or the apocalypse has started :D
one or the other has occurred for Phyllo to agree with me.....
I hope to learn soon.....


About business ... let me cite a hypothetical example ... hypothetical yet it happens every day every where.

An artisan patiently and lovingly crafts an equisitely beautiful sculpture ... gives it to his friend as an expression of his love for his friend.

His friend sells the gift for profit(business).

Is the 'selling for profit' an expression of gratitude to the giver?
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Tue May 30, 2017 4:16 am

I see where this is going.

Have a good one.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed May 31, 2017 8:55 am

Given the following;


theism is the current default paradigm for the the majority.

Non-theism [atheism] is nevertheless on a rising trend [natural progress] to replace and will become the default in the near future [optimistically].
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed May 31, 2017 9:25 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Non-theism [atheism] is nevertheless on a rising trend [natural progress] to replace and will become the default in the near future [optimistically].


Perhaps the future has arrived ...

Wu Ji Bi Fan.jpg
As soon as a thing reaches its extremity, it reverses its course.
Wu Ji Bi Fan.jpg (61.66 KiB) Viewed 556 times
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed May 31, 2017 6:44 pm

phyllo wrote:St Teresa : Does she represent what God wants or expects from the "true believer"?



That would depend on who you asked. People who share similar beliefs might think so.
My point of view is that she represented what she "believed" and "felt" God wanted or expected from a believer like herself. Her personal journey led her to her beliefs. I don't know if she ever felt cause enough to question and doubt them.
Not everyone is or could be a mystic and not everyone would or could torture their own body (masochism) in the name of purifying their so-called sexuality and humanity.

It seems to me that what God so-calledly wants or expects is a projection from within.
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed May 31, 2017 7:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Wed May 31, 2017 7:05 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
phyllo wrote:St Teresa : Does she represent what God wants or expects from the "true believer"?



That would depend on who you asked. People who shares similar beliefs might think so.
My point of view is that she represented what she "believes" and "feels" God wanted or expected from a believer like herself. Her personal journey lead her to her beliefs. I don't know if she ever felt cause enough to question and doubt them.
Not everyone is or could be a mystic and not everyone would or could torture their own body (masochism) in the name of purifying their so-called sexuality and humanity.

It seems to me that what God called so-calledly wants or expects is a projection from within.
That sums up the relativist/subjectivist perspective.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed May 31, 2017 7:26 pm

phyllo wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
phyllo wrote:St Teresa : Does she represent what God wants or expects from the "true believer"?



That would depend on who you asked. People who shares similar beliefs might think so.
My point of view is that she represented what she "believes" and "feels" God wanted or expected from a believer like herself. Her personal journey lead her to her beliefs. I don't know if she ever felt cause enough to question and doubt them.
Not everyone is or could be a mystic and not everyone would or could torture their own body (masochism) in the name of purifying their so-called sexuality and humanity.

It seems to me that what God called so-calledly wants or expects is a projection from within.
That sums up the relativist/subjectivist perspective.


Do you find there to be any validity in my perceptions?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 7:47 pm

If atheism is defined as the position that God can't or doesn't exist, than Atheism is a negative faith, no matter how rational atheists insist they are, unless they can logically prove why God can't or doesn't exist. However, I've heard atheism defined similarly to agnosticism: I don't believe in God, but it might exist.

No matter how silly something is, like flying purple unicorns that defecate rainbows, it could exist, just not in our dimension, according to our laws of physics, in all likelihood, and these entities or this entity that exists on another plane or realm, could be interacting with, or even hath created the whole of our plane or realm, or aspects of it, like it might've created life, but not the earth life inhabits, or the stars.
It's possible, unless you can demonstrate why it's impossible.
Whatever can't be logically or empirically demonstrated to be impossible, is possible.

Many contemporary theoretical physicists believe in alternative universes, they believe they can infer them from our universe, using some pretty wild and sketchy math, just as theologians use some pretty wild and sketchy logic to infer an intelligent designer from our universe, but neither of these claims can ever be empirically tested, in all likelihood, so who cares?
Pick your poison.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed May 31, 2017 8:23 pm

Gloominary

If atheism is defined as the position that God can't or doesn't exist, than Atheism is a negative faith


But what IS faith? Why would the atheist actually need faith albeit negative faith in order to see "no" God?
Paul says that "faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".


I don't think that all atheists can be viewed in the same way. Perhaps some atheists have a deeply, psychological need to deny the existence of God (ergo, faith and hope of such) and for some ~~~ there is, simply put, NO GOD.
In other words, no need to argue a moot point.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 8:46 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Gloominary

If atheism is defined as the position that God can't or doesn't exist, than Atheism is a negative faith


But what IS faith? Why would the atheist actually need faith albeit negative faith in order to see "no" God?
Paul says that "faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".


I don't think that all atheists can be viewed in the same way. Perhaps some atheists have a deeply, psychological need to deny the existence of God (ergo, faith and hope of such) and for some ~~~ there is, simply put, NO GOD.
In other words, no need to argue a moot point.

We couldn't see galaxies a couple of centuries ago, does that mean they didn't exist?
We couldn't see infrared or ultraviolet either, does that mean they didn't exist?
Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means that if it does exist, it doesn't exist in your vicinity, or at least can't meaningfully or observably interact with you.

I define faith as believing, or disbelieving without any proof, or against proof.

Yes, atheists could have psychological reasons for why they think they know God doesn't exist.
Like maybe their mommy or daddy sent them to a private Christian school where they were physically or sexually abused by a priest or nun *shrugs.
Or maybe they don't like the idea of some entity watching them all the time, even when they go the toilet.

I have no idea, but it makes for an interesting query.
Why do atheists insist there is/are no God(s)?
Yea different atheists likely have different albeit subconscious reasons.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Wed May 31, 2017 8:56 pm

Do you find there to be any validity in my perceptions?
What I find interesting is that lots of people who hold relativist positions, get really upset by other people's actions.

If I said that the way to higher spirituality was in disemboweling newborn babies ... it wouldn't just be "different strokes for different folks" for most relativists. But it's just as reasonable as any other relativist/subjectivist perspective on spirituality. Right?
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:11 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:
phyllo wrote:St Teresa : Does she represent what God wants or expects from the "true believer"?


That would depend on who you asked. People who shares similar beliefs might think so.
My point of view is that she represented what she "believes" and "feels" God wanted or expected from a believer like herself. Her personal journey lead her to her beliefs. I don't know if she ever felt cause enough to question and doubt them.
Not everyone is or could be a mystic and not everyone would or could torture their own body (masochism) in the name of purifying their so-called sexuality and humanity.

It seems to me that what God called so-calledly wants or expects is a projection from within.

Do you find there to be any validity in my perceptions?


AD ... while your perceptions may not be unique ... they are certainly not 'main stream'. Your keen insight is usually a sign that one has traveled a long ways on a spiritual path.

Let me try to illustrate with some more of the St Teresa story.

The Catholic Church has always insisted on the role of a spiritual director ... perhaps akin to the role of a psychologist, psychiatrist or dream analyst. The alleged purpose being to guide inexperienced spiritual seekers along their spiritual journey. The more likely purpose being to stifle, curtail, suffocate or terminate the impulses from the spirit in novice seekers.

How so?

The Judaic religions ... as with most religions ... were born in a particular space at a particular time. The original adherents took a "snap shot" of the events in this particular space and time ... a freeze frame. Future adherents insisted in clinging to the original "freeze frame". The Jesus story is a classic example. Thus the hostile attitude to heresy and nonconformist thought.

The only exception I know of are the Chinese religions ... both the I-Ching and The Dao De Jing have constant/perpetual change as their foundation.

Back to St Teresa ... she was a very strong woman. She allegedly insisted ... "don't send me any more stupid priests" (spiritual directors) ergo: priests who had no idea what the hell was happening inside St Teresa. She recovered and blossomed after meeting St John of the Cross who turned out to be a fellow mystic.

Atheists are the best hope in solving the "ills" of religion(s). You may have an exciting yet difficult road ahead.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:47 pm

phyllo wrote:
Do you find there to be any validity in my perceptions?
What I find interesting is that lots of people who hold relativist positions, get really upset by other people's actions.

If I said that the way to higher spirituality was in disemboweling newborn babies ... it wouldn't just be "different strokes for different folks" for most relativists. But it's just as reasonable as any other relativist/subjectivist perspective on spirituality. Right?


I don't think that that is me unless those actions do harm to others and to their selves.
Give me a "normal" "real" example and I'll see what I think.

As to the former, see above.
As to the latter, now you are being absurd. How can disemboweling newborn babies lead to higher spirituality? I realize that conditioned cultural and religious beliefs may play a strong role in what people do in order to attain to a higher spirituality (and in a sense these people may experience that) but that is because of their beliefs BUT when that behavior leads to harm or death, where is the logic/reason/goodness and harmony within that?

Don't you think that religion and religious practices ought to at least be based in reality and good reason?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:53 pm

I don't think that that is me unless those actions do harm to others and to their selves.
Give me a "normal" "real" example and I'll see what I think.
Once you take up relativism, there is no real or normal. Everything is real for a particular individual. Everything is normal for that individual. Others may disagree but they just have their own personal opinions, their own perspectives. No person's opinion is any better or worse than another person's opinion.
So when you say:
It seems to me that what God called so-calledly wants or expects is a projection from within.
You are saying that "spirituality" is whatever a particular individual thinks it is. That may include all sorts of "unique" practices.
As to the latter, now you are being absurd. How can disemboweling newborn babies lead to higher spirituality? I realize that conditioned cultural and religious beliefs may play a strong role in what people do in order to attain to a higher spirituality (and in a sense these people may experience that) but that is because of their beliefs BUT when that behavior leads to harm or death, where is the logic/reason/goodness and harmony within that?
I'm not being absurd, I'm using logic to find out where the relativist/subjectivist perspectives end up. If each person defines spirituality "from within", then he can say that spirituality is whatever pops into his head.
Sure, someone can say that it's not higher spirituality but that's just another opinion. That causing harm or death is bad, is also just another opinion.

Iambig writes about this often and I think that's one of his valid points. Once you fall down the relativist, subjectivist, nihilist rabbit hole, then psychopathy and narcissism become okay.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:48 pm

The Catholic Church has always insisted on the role of a spiritual director ... perhaps akin to the role of a psychologist, psychiatrist or dream analyst. The alleged purpose being to guide inexperienced spiritual seekers along their spiritual journey. The more likely purpose being to stifle, curtail, suffocate or terminate the impulses from the spirit in novice seekers.

How so?

The Judaic religions ... as with most religions ... were born in a particular space at a particular time. The original adherents took a "snap shot" of the events in this particular space and time ... a freeze frame. Future adherents insisted in clinging to the original "freeze frame". The Jesus story is a classic example. Thus the hostile attitude to heresy and nonconformist thought.
So are there correct and incorrect interpretations of the Jesus story? Are all interpretations equally valid?

Are there effective and ineffective ways to pursue the spiritual journey? Are all spiritual pursuits equally effective?
Atheists are the best hope in solving the "ills" of religion(s).
How so?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:28 pm

phyllo wrote:
The Catholic Church has always insisted on the role of a spiritual director ... perhaps akin to the role of a psychologist, psychiatrist or dream analyst. The alleged purpose being to guide inexperienced spiritual seekers along their spiritual journey. The more likely purpose being to stifle, curtail, suffocate or terminate the impulses from the spirit in novice seekers.

How so?

The Judaic religions ... as with most religions ... were born in a particular space at a particular time. The original adherents took a "snap shot" of the events in this particular space and time ... a freeze frame. Future adherents insisted in clinging to the original "freeze frame". The Jesus story is a classic example. Thus the hostile attitude to heresy and nonconformist thought.
So are there correct and incorrect interpretations of the Jesus story? Are all interpretations equally valid?


I suppose from the perspective of the interpreter all interpretations are valid. My guess is ... even those who followed the man every day for the three years of his ministry failed to completely understand his message.

Krishnamurti earned the respect of a large international community yet at age 90 he still claimed "nobody understands me".

phyllo wrote:Are there effective and ineffective ways to pursue the spiritual journey? Are all spiritual pursuits equally effective?


I don't know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.

phyllo wrote:
pilgrim-seeker-tom wrote:Atheists are the best hope in solving the "ills" of religion(s).
How so?


The dialectic "Wu Ji Bi Fan" ... "As soon as a thing reaches its extremity, it reverses its course."
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:30 am

I don't know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.
Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:10 am

phyllo wrote:
I don't know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.
Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.


1) My lifespan is short ... I hope to spend my finite time wisely.

2) Insert here
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:21 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
phyllo wrote:
I don't know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.
Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.


1) My lifespan is short ... I hope to spend my finite time wisely.


Some context ... as if anyone really cares. :lol:

For the first 43 years of my life I was totally immersed in the crowd. The question ... "Am I spending my life wisely?" never occurred to me. The crowd must be going the right way ... I simply have to follow.

After being kicked out of the crowd ... literally ... I was confronted with the question ... I had no choice but to consider it ... my reliance on the crowd had disappeared.

My birth circumstances coupled with my life experiences brought me to where I am today. I'm quite comfortable ... rightly or wrongly ... claiming I had no choice but arrive here.

I'm also comfortable claiming atheists and agnostics are engaged in a spiritual pursuit ... simply from a different angle/perspective.
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:18 pm

I'm also comfortable claiming atheists and agnostics are engaged in a spiritual pursuit ... simply from a different angle/perspective.
Sure they can be engaged in a spiritual pursuit. But for atheists it explicitly excludes God. And if God IS and if God is important, then they are missing something. So a future based on that spirituality is lacking.
Of course if God ISN'T, then the theists are inserting an imagined extra part into spirituality.


I would say that 'spirituality' is concern with the non-material aspects of reality. 'Pursuit of spirituality' is an attempt to better understand those non-material aspects.

Unless someone claims that all reality is purely material, then he/she can be spiritual and pursue spirituality.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
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"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:09 pm

Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit

1) The human lifespan is short ... pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual's hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.

2) Pursuit of spirituality' is an attempt to better understand the non-material aspects of reality.

3) Insert here.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:18 pm

1) The human lifespan is short ... pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual's hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.
That can easily be satisfied by consumerism, politics, economics. Accumulation of wealth can be considered "finite time spent wisely" and therefore spiritual. But lots of people disagree - probably you do also if I read you correctly.
3) Insert here.
Yes, sexual hedonism. Some do consider it spiritual.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:44 pm

phyllo wrote:
1) The human lifespan is short ... pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual's hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.
That can easily be satisfied by consumerism, politics, economics. Accumulation of wealth can be considered "finite time spent wisely" and therefore spiritual. But lots of people disagree - probably you do also if I read you correctly.
3) Insert here.
Yes, sexual hedonism. Some do consider it spiritual.


Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit


1) The human lifespan is short ... pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual's hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, 'wisely' means sincere consideration of the possible existence of non-material reality.

2) Pursuit of spirituality' is an attempt to better understand the non-material aspects of reality.

3) A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently ... independent of the religious crowd ... independent of the atheist crowd ... independent of the agnostic crowd.

4) insert here
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:59 pm

1) The human lifespan is short ... pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual's hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, 'wisely' means sincere consideration of the possible existence of non-material reality.
The "non-material reality" is 'relationships', so clearly it exists. For example, 'love' is non-material and exists. Which is why "God is love" is such a common idea.
3) A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently ... independent of the religious crowd ... independent of the atheist crowd ... independent of the agnostic crowd.
I don't think that this independence is required. Why would it be?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
phyllo
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Posts: 10010
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am
Location: Far away from the BS

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