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Prismatic567 wrote:One response I often get is 'what about other, this or that evil' that is going on other parts of the world?
I recognized ALL types of evils must be addressed and resolved by humanity [to be dealt elsewhere] but this OP is SPECIFICALLY about actual evils and violence arising out of Islam committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.
My hypothesis...is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.
The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Prismatic567 wrote:One response I often get is 'what about other, this or that evil' that is going on other parts of the world?
I recognized ALL types of evils must be addressed and resolved by humanity [to be dealt elsewhere] but this OP is SPECIFICALLY about actual evils and violence arising out of Islam committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.
A fair question ... though before attempting to address your question perhaps you could clarify some parameters.
1) A specific body politic ... Muslims/Islam ... a specific geography?
2) Time frame? For example, if your time frame is the past 100 years the answer is simple "Black Gold"![]()
3) Perpetrators of the evil or puppet masters of the perpetrators? The ultimate source of the manifestation of evil is not so simple. Books are inanimate objects ... hardly capable ... of and by themselves ... of controlling human behavior.
4) The remedy. Searching for a remedy may reveal root causes of the problem.
It is not easy for any one like Trump who had an very negative view of the evils and violent side of Islam, to change it overnight.iambiguous wrote:My hypothesis...is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.
See if you can connect the dots between speculation of this sort and events of this sort:
From the Daily Beast:
President Donald Trump joined in a traditional Saudi sword dance after signing a $110 billion arms deal with Saudi King Salman on Saturday. The all-male ceremonial dance, described as “the war dance” by one Saudi royal, took place outside the King Abdulaziz Historical Center in Riyadh before a lavish state dinner in Trump’s honor. Video of the dance shows First Lady Melania Trump looking on as Trump grins and sways to the beat of the drums, brandishing a sword along with Saudi King Salman and other Saudi royals. After finishing, Trump described the dance as “so beautiful.” U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross also linked arms with Saudi royals to participate in the dance. Linked to an Associated Press article in the Washington Post
Remember Trump on the campaign trail?
Many Muslims in the Middle East are in jihad mode by and large because that is where the oil is. In other words, the West intertwines its own interest here by sustaining autocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia. Why? Because the military industrial complex at home wants it that way.
Sure, you can stick God and religion in there somewhere. But for all too many Islamic jihadists, they see the modern world encroaching more and more on the objectivist narrative embedded in Sharia Law.
Just as when that rendition of the "modern world" back in the Middle Ages precipitated any number of fanatic Christians to launch their own rendition of jihad: the Crusades.
Of course in the West the faithful finally came to reconcile God with capitalism.
Didn't they?
The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.
Re the OP, my emphasis is only on Islam [in part not whole] and not on Muslims.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.
I hope those who will participate in this OP can set aside ... at least temporarily ... their preconceived notions of the body politic known as Muslim ... Islam. The preconceived notions I speak of are very legitimate ... perhaps even ossified in the human mind as a result of the relentless media coverage of the most unspeakable ... horrific ... acts of human violence.
If we fail to separate ourselves from this very real and substantial influence this OP will likely degenerate into yet another validation of our prejudices and hatred.
Is the word "birth" and all of it's implications appropriate when speaking of the 'foundation' of Islam?
If yes ... here are some of the implications of the word 'birth' ... which perhaps apply equally to the word 'foundation'.
1) Birth requires a gestation period ... in the case of a human generally regarded as about nine months. How long was the gestation period for the birth of the Qu'ran?
2) Birth requires a 'womb'. Can we circumscribe the 'womb' for the gestation of the Qu'ran? ergo: the relevant geography.
3) Birth requires an environment ... the stuff beyond the 'womb'. Perhaps 'context' is a more appropriate term. What was the immediate ... near ... and distant 'context' during the gestation period.
Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.
Diverting to Trump is off topic for this OP.iambiguous wrote:Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.
I have no illusions about yanking a discussion like this down out of the clouds -- one in which religion is construed as the battleground between Good and Evil. Good being the embodiment of one or another Holy Scripture embedded in one or another denomination.
The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.
Is Trump a Christian? Or did he just pretend to be one in order to get elected? Honestly, I don't know. I only have my suspicions.
But one thing that Trump swears by is capitalism. And capitalism [here and now] runs on oil. And much of the oil is buried underground in the Middle East
With capitalism everything revolves around 1] cheap labor 2] markets and 3 natural resources. Good and Evil comes later. For some, much later. And, for others, not at all. Many involved in owning and operating the global economy today are committed nihilists. Their "values" basically revolve around 1] "show me the money" and 2] "what's in it for me?"
For many religious folks, however, it is all about "views", "values". Attached to "souls". Thus the manner in which [historically] points of view [religious or otherwise] are often just reflections of fundamental political and economic interactions and relationships -- "political economy" as Marx framed it -- will hardly ever come up at all.
That "stuff" is all subsumed one way or another in one or another rendition of the Bible.
Unless of course I'm wrong.
It only supposedly the same God.The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.
As stated in the Quran, the hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca] is not compulsory but only for those who can afford it. There are many scholars who dispute and assert the related 'hajj' verses in the Quran do not actually meant 'pilgrimage to Mecca'. This hajj pilgrimage and its protocol was twisted from the verses so that the clergy can maintain control and made money.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Thanks for the clarification and for answering the questions I proposed.
1) Birth ... you suggest the 'birth' took place in the 'womb' of one individual ... the Prophet Mohamed.
2) Gestation Period ... the data you presented suggests the gestation period was 13 years ... 13 is an interesting number.![]()
3) Geography of birth ... you suggest a very small geography ... Mecca Saudi Arabia. A logical choice given that Saudi Arabia is today almost universally accepted as the 'heart' of Islam. Further support for your suggestion is the hadij ... the only recognized authentic pilgrimage within Islam and true adherents to Islam are expected to make the hadij once in their lifetime.
4) You didn't say anything about 'context' ... perhaps context will emerge in subsequent posts.
I agree 'virus' is a good analogy for ideology. Another milder one is 'meme' but 'virus' would be preferable in this case.Going forward ... you want to focus on the ideology of Islam ... OK.
Let me propose we substitute the word 'virus" ... with all it's implications ... for the word 'ideology. The word virus and it's implications are better understood by a wider audience.
For me ... the parallels between the two words are compelling:
1) A virus is invisible to the naked eye ... we observe the manifestation of the virus. For example ... a runny nose as manifestation of the common cold virus. Ditto for ideology.
2) A virus is almost universally understood to be harmful to human well being ... the nature of the harm has a broad scope ... from relatively harmless to fatal. For example ... the common cold and the bubonic plague.
3) A virus requires a host to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.
4) A virus has a militaristic nature ... it wants to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.
5) There exist only two defense strategies with a virus:
a) Minimize the effect(s) and wait until the virus spends itself. eg common cold medicines and treatments.
b) Fight the virus ... as in engage in a war with the virus. Empirical evidence consistently confirms that many virus fight back. For example ... via mutation. Ditto for ideology.
At first Muhammad thought he was possessed by the devil or jinn when he experienced terrible fears. It is only natural such terrible experience of fears can only from the devil or jinn. If it was God, Muhammad would have experienced awe, reverence and bliss.Proposed additional questions:
1) You stated Prophet Mohammed heard voices ... who/what did he attribute the source/fountain of the voices?
Yes.2) Empirical evidence supports the claim that humans have used a virus as a weapon of war against other humans. For example, early European settlers in America gave or sold blankets to the indigenous people contaminated with the smallpox virus ... with full knowledge of the consequences ... ergo ... the indigenous Americans had no immunity to the virus and a slow and painful death was inevitable ... as well as a quick propagation of the smallpox virus among the indigenous American population.
Is there any empirical evidence of this type of warfare vis a vis Islam?
On average, the size of primates' brains is nearly double what is expected for mammals of the same body size. Across nearly seven million years, the human brain has tripled in size, with most of this growth occurring in the past two million years. Determining brain changes over time is tricky.
Other than the main structures, the average human brain size, connectivities and quality definitely has changed since 200,000 years ago.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:On average, the size of primates' brains is nearly double what is expected for mammals of the same body size. Across nearly seven million years, the human brain has tripled in size, with most of this growth occurring in the past two million years. Determining brain changes over time is tricky.
http://www.yourgenome.org/stories/evolu ... uman-brain
Some argue that the biology of the human brain hasn't changed in the past 100,000 years.
While the biology may not have changed ... human consciousness has sure changed.
I agree an ideology is "Being Without Form."Let's move from biosphere to atmosphere.
Our atmosphere permits us to travel at 30 kilometres per second without feeling a thing. A truly remarkable feat ... the atmosphere has unknowable capabilities.
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin claims there is a third sphere beyond the atmosphere ... the Noosphere. If true, what are the capabilities of such a sphere?
For example:
A virus is a "Being Within Form" ... the physical properties of the virus can be seen with a microscope.
What if ideology is a "Being Without Form". This would answer a lot of questions.
I'm convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a "Being Without Form" we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.
A meme (/ˈmiːm/ MEEM), a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins,[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture".[2] A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures.[3]
Proponents theorize that memes are a viral phenomenon that may evolve by natural selection in a manner analogous to that of biological evolution. Memes do this through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance, each of which influences a meme's reproductive success. Memes spread through the behavior that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread, and (for better or for worse) mutate. Memes that replicate most effectively enjoy more success, and some may replicate effectively even when they prove to be detrimental to the welfare of their hosts.[4]
A field of study called memetics[5] arose in the 1990s to explore the concepts and transmission of memes in terms of an evolutionary model.
I don't think humanity is resisting but rather they are ignorant of your idea.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I'm convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a "Being Without Form" we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.
It would benefit a lot for you if you can set aside some time [one or two hours a day for a week] to understand the mechanics of your own brain and mind, i.e. Know Thyself -Socratespilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I can't discuss the anatomy or the functionality(s) of the human brain. I lack the knowledge and the interest/motivation. I'm a small town mind with a propensity for the big picture.
I believe it is critical to understand the 'micro' and 'macro' simultaneously and complimentarily like the Yin-Yang model.Here's my big picture:
1) Our senses exist to support survival on this planet ... end of story.
2) Somewhere in the anatomy/biology of a human is another system that operates beyond/outside the senses. This system has 3 components. A transmitter ... a receiver ... and a processor. My guess is the transmitter/receiver is DNA ... every cell of the human body contains DNA. The brain is the processor(CPU)
3) Speculation on how the system operates is futile ... we simply can't know. Reminds me of Confucius ... he acknowledged this "system" but persistently refused to talk about it. Seems he too understood the futility of speculation.
For me ... ideology(s) is/are a manifestation of this "system".
As I mentioned in an earlier post ... ideology ... like a virus ... needs a host for incubation/gestation and propagation. Seems humans are the "host of choice" for ideology(s).
Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??
Noted and understand. Express whatever you like and hopefully our ideas could match.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:In our physical reality ... I'm an old man ... I find stooping difficult.
That is the problem with many people these days.In our intellectual reality my experience is the same ...![]()
Your opening 2 statements in this OP:Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??
I assumed the word "why" implied your intention to probe/explore root cause(s) ... if one picks up a grain of sand on the beach and studies it ad infinitum one's knowledge of humanity improves ... how much?
Seems I was mistaken ... your subsequent posts suggest you intended to use this OP as a platform to broadcast your hatred of Islam.
I can understand and accept why you are stubborn.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Are you reading Jacob's OP ... "The Tree of Life Exploded"
My last post in this OP ... a few minutes ago ... may help you understand my stubbornness ... if you are interested.
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.
http://www.livescience.com/19971-belief ... m-age.html
Although the brains of older people slow down, experience and knowledge more than make up for it, making them wiser than their younger counterparts
Prismatic567 wrote:iambiguous wrote:Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.
I have no illusions about yanking a discussion like this down out of the clouds -- one in which religion is construed as the battleground between Good and Evil. Good being the embodiment of one or another Holy Scripture embedded in one or another denomination.
The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.
Is Trump a Christian? Or did he just pretend to be one in order to get elected? Honestly, I don't know. I only have my suspicions.
But one thing that Trump swears by is capitalism. And capitalism [here and now] runs on oil. And much of the oil is buried underground in the Middle East
With capitalism everything revolves around 1] cheap labor 2] markets and 3 natural resources. Good and Evil comes later. For some, much later. And, for others, not at all. Many involved in owning and operating the global economy today are committed nihilists. Their "values" basically revolve around 1] "show me the money" and 2] "what's in it for me?"
For many religious folks, however, it is all about "views", "values". Attached to "souls". Thus the manner in which [historically] points of view [religious or otherwise] are often just reflections of fundamental political and economic interactions and relationships -- "political economy" as Marx framed it -- will hardly ever come up at all.
That "stuff" is all subsumed one way or another in one or another rendition of the Bible.
Unless of course I'm wrong.
Diverting to Trump is off topic for this OP.
The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.
Prismatic567 wrote: It only supposedly the same God.
You are very wrong on this.iambiguous wrote:Basically [in my view] all you do here is to accumulate your own particular collection of religious prejudices and argue that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to agree.
Or to, among others things, take a leap of faith to.
Much the same way in which those of the Moslem faith do regarding the Bible and the Torah.
SOME Moslems anyway.
That is very logical, time wise the elders will have more experiences than the younger groups. But that cannot be a rule because there are so many contexts to take into account over time and circumstances.pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Although the brains of older people slow down, experience and knowledge more than make up for it, making them wiser than their younger counterparts
For millennia ... in most cultures ... young people would seek advice from their elders ... the experience(s) of elders was considered superior to the knowledge and vigour of the younger inexperienced members of society.
Times they are a changin!
Continue to contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.
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