Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

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Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun May 21, 2017 4:48 am

Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??

I define "evil" [in a continuum ] as any human act that is committed, intended or potential and is net-negative to the well being to the individual and humanity collectively.

I can consider myself a near-expert on the Quran [studied it full time for few years with basic knowledge of basic Arabic].

My hypothesis to the OP is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Sun May 21, 2017 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun May 21, 2017 4:52 am

One response I often get is 'what about other, this or that evil' that is going on other parts of the world?
I recognized ALL types of evils must be addressed and resolved by humanity [to be dealt elsewhere] but this OP is SPECIFICALLY about actual evils and violence arising out of Islam committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun May 21, 2017 9:13 am

Prismatic567 wrote:One response I often get is 'what about other, this or that evil' that is going on other parts of the world?
I recognized ALL types of evils must be addressed and resolved by humanity [to be dealt elsewhere] but this OP is SPECIFICALLY about actual evils and violence arising out of Islam committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.


A fair question ... though before attempting to address your question perhaps you could clarify some parameters.

1) A specific body politic ... Muslims/Islam ... a specific geography?

2) Time frame? For example, if your time frame is the past 100 years the answer is simple "Black Gold" :)

3) Perpetrators of the evil or puppet masters of the perpetrators? The ultimate source of the manifestation of evil is not so simple. Books are inanimate objects ... hardly capable ... of and by themselves ... of controlling human behavior.

4) The remedy. Searching for a remedy may reveal root causes of the problem.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby iambiguous » Sun May 21, 2017 11:55 pm

My hypothesis...is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.


See if you can connect the dots between speculation of this sort and events of this sort:

From the Daily Beast:

President Donald Trump joined in a traditional Saudi sword dance after signing a $110 billion arms deal with Saudi King Salman on Saturday. The all-male ceremonial dance, described as “the war dance” by one Saudi royal, took place outside the King Abdulaziz Historical Center in Riyadh before a lavish state dinner in Trump’s honor. Video of the dance shows First Lady Melania Trump looking on as Trump grins and sways to the beat of the drums, brandishing a sword along with Saudi King Salman and other Saudi royals. After finishing, Trump described the dance as “so beautiful.” U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross also linked arms with Saudi royals to participate in the dance. Linked to an Associated Press article in the Washington Post

Remember Trump on the campaign trail?

Many Muslims in the Middle East are in jihad mode by and large because that is where the oil is. In other words, the West intertwines its own interest here by sustaining autocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia. Why? Because the military industrial complex at home wants it that way.

Sure, you can stick God and religion in there somewhere. But for all too many Islamic jihadists, they see the modern world encroaching more and more on the objectivist narrative embedded in Sharia Law.

Just as when that rendition of the "modern world" back in the Middle Ages precipitated any number of fanatic Christians to launch their own rendition of jihad: the Crusades.

Of course in the West the faithful finally came to reconcile God with capitalism.

Didn't they?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon May 22, 2017 2:40 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:One response I often get is 'what about other, this or that evil' that is going on other parts of the world?
I recognized ALL types of evils must be addressed and resolved by humanity [to be dealt elsewhere] but this OP is SPECIFICALLY about actual evils and violence arising out of Islam committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.


A fair question ... though before attempting to address your question perhaps you could clarify some parameters.

1) A specific body politic ... Muslims/Islam ... a specific geography?

2) Time frame? For example, if your time frame is the past 100 years the answer is simple "Black Gold" :)

3) Perpetrators of the evil or puppet masters of the perpetrators? The ultimate source of the manifestation of evil is not so simple. Books are inanimate objects ... hardly capable ... of and by themselves ... of controlling human behavior.

4) The remedy. Searching for a remedy may reveal root causes of the problem.
The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.

Note the present [30,845][subject to refinement];
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg
Image

The above statistics merely represent the violent evils where deaths are involved.
There is another whole load of evils, violence, oppression [no deaths] that are committed by SOME Muslims around the world who are inspired by the evil and malignant ideology of Islam.

It is not the book but the ideology per-se of Islam [part of it is very evil] that is critical in triggering the % [20% best guess] of evil prone Muslims [who were unfortunately born with active evil tendencies] to commit evil and violence.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon May 22, 2017 3:16 am

iambiguous wrote:
My hypothesis...is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.


See if you can connect the dots between speculation of this sort and events of this sort:

From the Daily Beast:

President Donald Trump joined in a traditional Saudi sword dance after signing a $110 billion arms deal with Saudi King Salman on Saturday. The all-male ceremonial dance, described as “the war dance” by one Saudi royal, took place outside the King Abdulaziz Historical Center in Riyadh before a lavish state dinner in Trump’s honor. Video of the dance shows First Lady Melania Trump looking on as Trump grins and sways to the beat of the drums, brandishing a sword along with Saudi King Salman and other Saudi royals. After finishing, Trump described the dance as “so beautiful.” U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross also linked arms with Saudi royals to participate in the dance. Linked to an Associated Press article in the Washington Post

Remember Trump on the campaign trail?

Many Muslims in the Middle East are in jihad mode by and large because that is where the oil is. In other words, the West intertwines its own interest here by sustaining autocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia. Why? Because the military industrial complex at home wants it that way.

Sure, you can stick God and religion in there somewhere. But for all too many Islamic jihadists, they see the modern world encroaching more and more on the objectivist narrative embedded in Sharia Law.

Just as when that rendition of the "modern world" back in the Middle Ages precipitated any number of fanatic Christians to launch their own rendition of jihad: the Crusades.

Of course in the West the faithful finally came to reconcile God with capitalism.

Didn't they?
It is not easy for any one like Trump who had an very negative view of the evils and violent side of Islam, to change it overnight.
The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.

Whatever Trump did in Saudi [sword dancing] is merely showing normal etiquette to one's hosts and tolerate as much as possible what is uncomfortable to one own norms. This is common and happened to most famous people [politicians, celebrities, etc.]
If Trump had bowed to the King, and Trump's wife and daughter don the hijab [cover their hair] that would be something telling.

My hypothesis re the OP is, Islam is the only major religion where its holy texts contain verses [supposedly from God] with very malignant and evil elements that strongly inspire SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible "evils"* and "violence"* as a divine duty to please Allah so they can be assured of going to Paradise.
* to any ordinary human being what the jihadists are doing is evil and violent, but to them these acts are considered good, right, virtuous, meritorious and necessary as commanded by Allah.

The crusades were not driven by verses from Jesus and the NT where the overriding maxim is the pacifist 'love your enemy.' The crusades [countering the evils of Islamist imperialism] were committed by evil prone humans who happened to be Christians but not by Christianity per-se.

It is the same with the violence in Myanmar which has nothing to do with Buddhism [no leading inspiring evil elements in their texts]. The violence in Myanmar on Muslims were committed by Myanmarist [nationalists] who happened to be Buddhists, some could be atheists or of other religions. They ['evil' Buddhists] are countering the inherent evils and violence of Islam. Why do they resist and attack [if true] only Muslims [Islam] but not believers of other religions?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon May 22, 2017 5:42 am

The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.


I hope those who will participate in this OP can set aside ... at least temporarily ... their preconceived notions of the body politic known as Muslim ... Islam. The preconceived notions I speak of are very legitimate ... perhaps even ossified in the human mind as a result of the relentless media coverage of the most unspeakable ... horrific ... acts of human violence.

If we fail to separate ourselves from this very real and substantial influence this OP will likely degenerate into yet another validation of our prejudices and hatred.

Is the word "birth" and all of it's implications appropriate when speaking of the 'foundation' of Islam?

If yes ... here are some of the implications of the word 'birth' ... which perhaps apply equally to the word 'foundation'.

1) Birth requires a gestation period ... in the case of a human generally regarded as about nine months. How long was the gestation period for the birth of the Qu'ran?

2) Birth requires a 'womb'. Can we circumscribe the 'womb' for the gestation of the Qu'ran? ergo: the relevant geography.

3) Birth requires an environment ... the stuff beyond the 'womb'. Perhaps 'context' is a more appropriate term. What was the immediate ... near ... and distant 'context' during the gestation period.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon May 22, 2017 6:30 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
The time frame is from day one Islam was founded 1,400 years ago where in part of Islam practiced by SOME fundamentalists had been very evil and violent to the present.


I hope those who will participate in this OP can set aside ... at least temporarily ... their preconceived notions of the body politic known as Muslim ... Islam. The preconceived notions I speak of are very legitimate ... perhaps even ossified in the human mind as a result of the relentless media coverage of the most unspeakable ... horrific ... acts of human violence.

If we fail to separate ourselves from this very real and substantial influence this OP will likely degenerate into yet another validation of our prejudices and hatred.

Is the word "birth" and all of it's implications appropriate when speaking of the 'foundation' of Islam?

If yes ... here are some of the implications of the word 'birth' ... which perhaps apply equally to the word 'foundation'.

1) Birth requires a gestation period ... in the case of a human generally regarded as about nine months. How long was the gestation period for the birth of the Qu'ran?

2) Birth requires a 'womb'. Can we circumscribe the 'womb' for the gestation of the Qu'ran? ergo: the relevant geography.

3) Birth requires an environment ... the stuff beyond the 'womb'. Perhaps 'context' is a more appropriate term. What was the immediate ... near ... and distant 'context' during the gestation period.
Re the OP, my emphasis is only on Islam [in part not whole] and not on Muslims.
Muslims are the unfortunate victims of Islam the ideology.

As for birth, yes Islam the ideology has a birth like how Nazism's birth was from the brain of one person, i.e. Hitler.
It started from a person called Muhammad who had some frightening experiences of altered states of consciousness, i.e. a sort of bad LSD trip and subsequently was bombarded by voices in his head.

Note this growth of Islam the ideology as supported by the number of followers in the beginning;
Image

For 13 years of preaching Muhammad only had 150 followers, but after a switch to aggressive violent mode his following increased to 100,000++ after only 10 years.

Check out the various interesting statistics here.
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistic ... ml#Battles

Here is a pictorial representation of Islamic battles;


Here is a list of battles carried out by Islamists since 1,400 years ago which contributed to the aggressive and violent expansion of Islam the ideology which is partly malignant.
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistic ... esDate.pdf
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon May 22, 2017 12:51 pm

Thanks for the clarification and for answering the questions I proposed.

1) Birth ... you suggest the 'birth' took place in the 'womb' of one individual ... the Prophet Mohamed.

2) Gestation Period ... the data you presented suggests the gestation period was 13 years ... 13 is an interesting number. :)

3) Geography of birth ... you suggest a very small geography ... Mecca Saudi Arabia. A logical choice given that Saudi Arabia is today almost universally accepted as the 'heart' of Islam. Further support for your suggestion is the hadij ... the only recognized authentic pilgrimage within Islam and true adherents to Islam are expected to make the hadij once in their lifetime.

4) You didn't say anything about 'context' ... perhaps context will emerge in subsequent posts.

Going forward ... you want to focus on the ideology of Islam ... OK.

Let me propose we substitute the word 'virus" ... with all it's implications ... for the word 'ideology. The word virus and it's implications are better understood by a wider audience.
For me ... the parallels between the two words are compelling:

1) A virus is invisible to the naked eye ... we observe the manifestation of the virus. For example ... a runny nose as manifestation of the common cold virus. Ditto for ideology.

2) A virus is almost universally understood to be harmful to human well being ... the nature of the harm has a broad scope ... from relatively harmless to fatal. For example ... the common cold and the bubonic plague.

3) A virus requires a host to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.

4) A virus has a militaristic nature ... it wants to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.

5) There exist only two defense strategies with a virus:
a) Minimize the effect(s) and wait until the virus spends itself. eg common cold medicines and treatments.
b) Fight the virus ... as in engage in a war with the virus. Empirical evidence consistently confirms that many virus fight back. For example ... via mutation. Ditto for ideology.

Proposed additional questions:

1) You stated Prophet Mohammed heard voices ... who/what did he attribute the source/fountain of the voices?

2) Empirical evidence supports the claim that humans have used a virus as a weapon of war against other humans. For example, early European settlers in America gave or sold blankets to the indigenous people contaminated with the smallpox virus ... with full knowledge of the consequences ... ergo ... the indigenous Americans had no immunity to the virus and a slow and painful death was inevitable ... as well as a quick propagation of the smallpox virus among the indigenous American population.

Is there any empirical evidence of this type of warfare vis a vis Islam?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby iambiguous » Mon May 22, 2017 7:02 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.


I have no illusions about yanking a discussion like this down out of the clouds -- one in which religion is construed as the battleground between Good and Evil. Good being the embodiment of one or another Holy Scripture embedded in one or another denomination.

The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.

Is Trump a Christian? Or did he just pretend to be one in order to get elected? Honestly, I don't know. I only have my suspicions.

But one thing that Trump swears by is capitalism. And capitalism [here and now] runs on oil. And much of the oil is buried underground in the Middle East

With capitalism everything revolves around 1] cheap labor 2] markets and 3 natural resources. Good and Evil comes later. For some, much later. And, for others, not at all. Many involved in owning and operating the global economy today are committed nihilists. Their "values" basically revolve around 1] "show me the money" and 2] "what's in it for me?"

For many religious folks, however, it is all about "views", "values". Attached to "souls". Thus the manner in which [historically] points of view [religious or otherwise] are often just reflections of fundamental political and economic interactions and relationships -- "political economy" as Marx framed it -- will hardly ever come up at all.

That "stuff" is all subsumed one way or another in one or another rendition of the Bible.

Unless of course I'm wrong.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue May 23, 2017 3:07 am

iambiguous wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.


I have no illusions about yanking a discussion like this down out of the clouds -- one in which religion is construed as the battleground between Good and Evil. Good being the embodiment of one or another Holy Scripture embedded in one or another denomination.

The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.

Is Trump a Christian? Or did he just pretend to be one in order to get elected? Honestly, I don't know. I only have my suspicions.

But one thing that Trump swears by is capitalism. And capitalism [here and now] runs on oil. And much of the oil is buried underground in the Middle East

With capitalism everything revolves around 1] cheap labor 2] markets and 3 natural resources. Good and Evil comes later. For some, much later. And, for others, not at all. Many involved in owning and operating the global economy today are committed nihilists. Their "values" basically revolve around 1] "show me the money" and 2] "what's in it for me?"

For many religious folks, however, it is all about "views", "values". Attached to "souls". Thus the manner in which [historically] points of view [religious or otherwise] are often just reflections of fundamental political and economic interactions and relationships -- "political economy" as Marx framed it -- will hardly ever come up at all.

That "stuff" is all subsumed one way or another in one or another rendition of the Bible.

Unless of course I'm wrong.
Diverting to Trump is off topic for this OP.

The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.
It only supposedly the same God.

The Quran cursed in very strong terms the Jews and Christians corrupted the original words or revelation of God. Therefore the Torah and Gospels that the Jews and Christians are holding, reading and believing are corrupted and thus are the worst sinners [Shirk], i.e. attributing partners to the only God.
The Quran do not agree the polluted God of the Jews and Christians attributed with sons and partners are the same as their pure monotheistic God - there is none but Allah.
Since the Jews and Christians had committed Shirk -one of the greatest sin in Islam - that is a threat to Islam and thus must be 'exterminated' as a main theme of the ideology.

This is one reason [amongst others] why Islam-in-part [not whole] is so malignant and evil.

To understand one need to understand what is in the Quran that made is so malignant and evil in reality as committed by SOME Muslims.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue May 23, 2017 4:02 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Thanks for the clarification and for answering the questions I proposed.

1) Birth ... you suggest the 'birth' took place in the 'womb' of one individual ... the Prophet Mohamed.

2) Gestation Period ... the data you presented suggests the gestation period was 13 years ... 13 is an interesting number. :)

3) Geography of birth ... you suggest a very small geography ... Mecca Saudi Arabia. A logical choice given that Saudi Arabia is today almost universally accepted as the 'heart' of Islam. Further support for your suggestion is the hadij ... the only recognized authentic pilgrimage within Islam and true adherents to Islam are expected to make the hadij once in their lifetime.

4) You didn't say anything about 'context' ... perhaps context will emerge in subsequent posts.
As stated in the Quran, the hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca] is not compulsory but only for those who can afford it. There are many scholars who dispute and assert the related 'hajj' verses in the Quran do not actually meant 'pilgrimage to Mecca'. This hajj pilgrimage and its protocol was twisted from the verses so that the clergy can maintain control and made money.

I am not sure what 'context' you would like to bring in?

Going forward ... you want to focus on the ideology of Islam ... OK.

Let me propose we substitute the word 'virus" ... with all it's implications ... for the word 'ideology. The word virus and it's implications are better understood by a wider audience.
For me ... the parallels between the two words are compelling:

1) A virus is invisible to the naked eye ... we observe the manifestation of the virus. For example ... a runny nose as manifestation of the common cold virus. Ditto for ideology.

2) A virus is almost universally understood to be harmful to human well being ... the nature of the harm has a broad scope ... from relatively harmless to fatal. For example ... the common cold and the bubonic plague.

3) A virus requires a host to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.

4) A virus has a militaristic nature ... it wants to survive and propagate ... ditto for ideology.

5) There exist only two defense strategies with a virus:
a) Minimize the effect(s) and wait until the virus spends itself. eg common cold medicines and treatments.
b) Fight the virus ... as in engage in a war with the virus. Empirical evidence consistently confirms that many virus fight back. For example ... via mutation. Ditto for ideology.
I agree 'virus' is a good analogy for ideology. Another milder one is 'meme' but 'virus' would be preferable in this case.
However, since Islam-in-part is SO evil, I would prefer bring in 'malignancy' as in cancer cells which exist in all humans but are under control except when triggered by some weakness in the system.
In any case 'virus' can be used interchangeable with 'malignant' cells where both will serve the purpose to some degrees.

Proposed additional questions:

1) You stated Prophet Mohammed heard voices ... who/what did he attribute the source/fountain of the voices?
At first Muhammad thought he was possessed by the devil or jinn when he experienced terrible fears. It is only natural such terrible experience of fears can only from the devil or jinn. If it was God, Muhammad would have experienced awe, reverence and bliss.
He calmed down only after his wife [familiar with Jewish and Christian prophecies] comforted him [ignorantly or deliberately?] that some holy spirit has visited him and he was the chosen messiah.
So Muhammad started preaching [insulting the then existing religions] but he was mocked as a madman by the Pagans, Jews and Christians then. This is the significant reason* why he hated the Jews and Christians because they altered the texts that led to the denial of his messiah-hood. *like Hitler hated Jews for some reasons.

The above is a significant clue, Islam was actually born out of the mental sickness of someone called Muhammad. Muhammad got away with it because it was 700 AD+ and there were no psychiatrists then to diagnose his problem scientifically and objectively like we could at present.

People hearing voices - objectively, researched and cured - is a symptom of some kind of mental illness, schizophrenia, temporal epilepsy, etc.
This psychological problem is well researched.
Note this experienced a certain altered states of consciousness that convinced him he was an agent of God. Instead of recognizing he is God his father sent him to a psychiatrist and neuro-scientist which was the right thing to do in our current time.



If this guy or others who has similar experiences happened 2000 or 1500 years ago, and if he was charismatic enough he could get away with starting a new religion, like Muhammad did.

If Muhammad experienced that sort of hearing of voices in 2017, his wife would have sent him to see a psychiatrist. If he tried to claim he is the chosen messiah, most would be able to see through to his madness and be confirmed by some reputable psychiatrists and will be assigned the appropriate treatment.

2) Empirical evidence supports the claim that humans have used a virus as a weapon of war against other humans. For example, early European settlers in America gave or sold blankets to the indigenous people contaminated with the smallpox virus ... with full knowledge of the consequences ... ergo ... the indigenous Americans had no immunity to the virus and a slow and painful death was inevitable ... as well as a quick propagation of the smallpox virus among the indigenous American population.

Is there any empirical evidence of this type of warfare vis a vis Islam?
Yes.

Note my other thread, 'Fear of Death' as a primary motivator of Religions.
Religions had been abused on a massive scale for various reasons.
As you can infer, Islam was mixed with Politics when Muhammad incorporated political elements into Islam and his follower grew from 150 to 100,000++ within 10 years and had been expanding since 1,400 to the present by infected people with such a violent virus.

I don't deny in other cases Islam was spread by non-violence means.
But since Islam is in part inherently evil, this is the spreading of potential evil by non-violent means. This is evident by the glaring number of evils and violent events committed by SOME Muslims around the World.
When any country of group get serious with Islam [being truer Muslims] there is a corresponding increase in evil [of various degrees] and violence.
A good example is the spread of Islam by traders via the sea to South East Asia, but note the increase of evils and violence when Islam is practiced more seriously or made more pronounced in their political and social environment as in Southern Thailand, S. Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar.

Btw, what solid evidences would you need to agree convincingly with the OP?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed May 24, 2017 12:58 am

On average, the size of primates' brains is nearly double what is expected for mammals of the same body size. Across nearly seven million years, the human brain has tripled in size, with most of this growth occurring in the past two million years. Determining brain changes over time is tricky.


http://www.yourgenome.org/stories/evolu ... uman-brain

Some argue that the biology of the human brain hasn't changed in the past 100,000 years.

While the biology may not have changed ... human consciousness has sure changed.

Let's move from biosphere to atmosphere.

Our atmosphere permits us to travel at 30 kilometres per second without feeling a thing. A truly remarkable feat ... the atmosphere has unknowable capabilities.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin claims there is a third sphere beyond the atmosphere ... the Noosphere. If true, what are the capabilities of such a sphere?

For example:

A virus is a "Being Within Form" ... the physical properties of the virus can be seen with a microscope.

What if ideology is a "Being Without Form". This would answer a lot of questions.

I'm convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a "Being Without Form" we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:10 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
On average, the size of primates' brains is nearly double what is expected for mammals of the same body size. Across nearly seven million years, the human brain has tripled in size, with most of this growth occurring in the past two million years. Determining brain changes over time is tricky.


http://www.yourgenome.org/stories/evolu ... uman-brain

Some argue that the biology of the human brain hasn't changed in the past 100,000 years.

While the biology may not have changed ... human consciousness has sure changed.
Other than the main structures, the average human brain size, connectivities and quality definitely has changed since 200,000 years ago.
I believe the average brain size changes and increases very slowly like the growth of a stalagmite.
However the average connectivity patterns [algorithms] between the synapses would be changing more significantly faster within the human brain.


Let's move from biosphere to atmosphere.

Our atmosphere permits us to travel at 30 kilometres per second without feeling a thing. A truly remarkable feat ... the atmosphere has unknowable capabilities.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin claims there is a third sphere beyond the atmosphere ... the Noosphere. If true, what are the capabilities of such a sphere?

For example:

A virus is a "Being Within Form" ... the physical properties of the virus can be seen with a microscope.

What if ideology is a "Being Without Form". This would answer a lot of questions.

I'm convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a "Being Without Form" we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.
I agree an ideology is "Being Without Form."
However an ideology is not an independent being but rather conditioned only upon the collective of humans.
It is like an 'emergence' with specific characteristics that emerges from the interactions of human consciousness.

What about your view re 'ideology' as a 'meme' and memetics;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

A meme (/ˈmiːm/ MEEM), a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins,[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture".[2] A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures.[3]

Proponents theorize that memes are a viral phenomenon that may evolve by natural selection in a manner analogous to that of biological evolution. Memes do this through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance, each of which influences a meme's reproductive success. Memes spread through the behavior that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread, and (for better or for worse) mutate. Memes that replicate most effectively enjoy more success, and some may replicate effectively even when they prove to be detrimental to the welfare of their hosts.[4]

A field of study called memetics[5] arose in the 1990s to explore the concepts and transmission of memes in terms of an evolutionary model.


pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I'm convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a "Being Without Form" we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.
I don't think humanity is resisting but rather they are ignorant of your idea.

I agree 'ideology' is a "Being Without Form" but I believe an ideology can either be good or evil totally, net good or net evil.
Islam is an ideology but why Islam-in-part is SO evil is because inherent within Islam there are very malignant evil elements right from the start the day Islam was initiated.

Some questions are how it is that the evil elements of the Islamic ideology can spread so virally within humans that result in terrible evils and violence around the world, the most recent case as in Manchester, Britain.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed May 24, 2017 7:25 am

I can't discuss the anatomy or the functionality(s) of the human brain. I lack the knowledge and the interest/motivation. I'm a small town mind with a propensity for the big picture. :)

Here's my big picture:

1) Our senses exist to support survival on this planet ... end of story.

2) Somewhere in the anatomy/biology of a human is another system that operates beyond/outside the senses. This system has 3 components. A transmitter ... a receiver ... and a processor. My guess is the transmitter/receiver is DNA ... every cell of the human body contains DNA. The brain is the processor(CPU)

3) Speculation on how the system operates is futile ... we simply can't know. Reminds me of Confucius ... he acknowledged this "system" but persistently refused to talk about it. Seems he too understood the futility of speculation.

For me ... ideology(s) is/are a manifestation of this "system".

As I mentioned in an earlier post ... ideology ... like a virus ... needs a host for incubation/gestation and propagation. Seems humans are the "host of choice" for ideology(s). :)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu May 25, 2017 3:41 am

Not sure how your points are tied to the OP.
Never mind if you are got off the groove.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I can't discuss the anatomy or the functionality(s) of the human brain. I lack the knowledge and the interest/motivation. I'm a small town mind with a propensity for the big picture. :)
It would benefit a lot for you if you can set aside some time [one or two hours a day for a week] to understand the mechanics of your own brain and mind, i.e. Know Thyself -Socrates
This link will give you a general idea;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain
then follow up on the links re Emotions and Executive Function which has the greatest impact on one's day to day life.
This will give a greater understanding of the objectives of Eastern Spirituality's attempts to modulate the brain and mind via meditation and other processes.

Here's my big picture:

1) Our senses exist to support survival on this planet ... end of story.

2) Somewhere in the anatomy/biology of a human is another system that operates beyond/outside the senses. This system has 3 components. A transmitter ... a receiver ... and a processor. My guess is the transmitter/receiver is DNA ... every cell of the human body contains DNA. The brain is the processor(CPU)

3) Speculation on how the system operates is futile ... we simply can't know. Reminds me of Confucius ... he acknowledged this "system" but persistently refused to talk about it. Seems he too understood the futility of speculation.

For me ... ideology(s) is/are a manifestation of this "system".

As I mentioned in an earlier post ... ideology ... like a virus ... needs a host for incubation/gestation and propagation. Seems humans are the "host of choice" for ideology(s). :)
I believe it is critical to understand the 'micro' and 'macro' simultaneously and complimentarily like the Yin-Yang model.

I don't agree we should give up on any 'system' until we have exhausted all possible knowledge of it, then as Wittgenstein proposed;
"What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein/

One obvious thing we cannot conceive in mind is a contradiction, e.g. a square-circle.
'Pass over in silence' in this case meant don't bother with searching for it in reality, but nevertheless we can still discuss why we must pass it over in silence.
Another is the 'thing-in-itself' of Kant where we do not speak of it positively but only in the negative.

Btw, do you have any points that are directly related to the OP?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu May 25, 2017 9:25 am

In our physical reality ... I'm an old man ... I find stooping difficult.

In our intellectual reality my experience is the same ... :)

Your opening 2 statements in this OP:

Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??


I assumed the word "why" implied your intention to probe/explore root cause(s) ... if one picks up a grain of sand on the beach and studies it ad infinitum one's knowledge of humanity improves ... how much?

Seems I was mistaken ... your subsequent posts suggest you intended to use this OP as a platform to broadcast your hatred of Islam.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:59 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:In our physical reality ... I'm an old man ... I find stooping difficult.
Noted and understand. Express whatever you like and hopefully our ideas could match.

In our intellectual reality my experience is the same ... :)

Your opening 2 statements in this OP:

Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??


I assumed the word "why" implied your intention to probe/explore root cause(s) ... if one picks up a grain of sand on the beach and studies it ad infinitum one's knowledge of humanity improves ... how much?

Seems I was mistaken ... your subsequent posts suggest you intended to use this OP as a platform to broadcast your hatred of Islam.
That is the problem with many people these days.
The terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone is so obvious and yet the slightest critique and mention of it is immediately deemed at hatred. There is something very wrong with humans on this matter.

I am not officially a Buddhist but I adopt one of the Bodhisattva's vow of being compassionate and helping all sentient beings wherever possible.
Now I am exposed to so much terrible evils from one sector of humanity, obviously my empathy is triggered and thus drive me to do something.
I believe I can contribute [having the relevant expertise] much to research and discuss the root cause of this particular problem, i.e. Islamic-based terror, evil and violence.

I am aware there are so much of other types of evils in the world but I don't have the expertise to contribute effective in other areas than Islamic-based evils. That is why I raised the OP for its discussion to get views from others besides my own research.

When you perceived criticisms and finding root causes as 'hatred' you are proposing everyone should be an ostrich to the facts of terrible Islamic based evils.

Btw, I believed there is another reason why many people are avoiding [so painful to touch on] the discussion of Islamic terrors, evils and violence. This can be traced to the 'primal fear of death' and the associated cognitive dissonance I raised in the other thread. The theory is based an understanding of the brain mechanisms. I won't go into the details unless you are really interested.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu May 25, 2017 10:40 am

Are you reading Jacob's OP ... "The Tree of Life Exploded"

My last post in this OP ... a few minutes ago ... may help you understand my stubbornness ... if you are interested. :)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri May 26, 2017 8:19 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Are you reading Jacob's OP ... "The Tree of Life Exploded"

My last post in this OP ... a few minutes ago ... may help you understand my stubbornness ... if you are interested. :)
I can understand and accept why you are stubborn.
Generally stubborn_ness and resistance to change is due to insecurity and low self esteem.

But it also an effect and consequences from those who are older.
As one grows older, the effectiveness of most of one's faculty began to wane Naturally due to the greater atrophy of brain cells.
With lesser controls, the ego and mind will close in to protect its integrity with defensiveness, stubbon_ness and all sorts of resistance. This is a very natural thing, so I can understand your position.

Note this interesting research,
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.
http://www.livescience.com/19971-belief ... m-age.html


Even the once most notable militant atheist, Anthony Flew, succumb to the above in his later years and became a deist. This happen to many [not all] atheists.

Best wishes to you on whatever you do.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri May 26, 2017 9:45 am

Although the brains of older people slow down, experience and knowledge more than make up for it, making them wiser than their younger counterparts


For millennia ... in most cultures ... young people would seek advice from their elders ... the experience(s) of elders was considered superior to the knowledge and vigour of the younger inexperienced members of society.

Times they are a changin! :lol:
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby iambiguous » Fri May 26, 2017 6:15 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The good point re Trump is he is willing to meet up with 'enemies' and 'opponents' with opposite interests/views because he believed he can change their views through negotiation, e.g. wanting to meet Kim of N Korea, friendly with Putin, etc.


I have no illusions about yanking a discussion like this down out of the clouds -- one in which religion is construed as the battleground between Good and Evil. Good being the embodiment of one or another Holy Scripture embedded in one or another denomination.

The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.

Is Trump a Christian? Or did he just pretend to be one in order to get elected? Honestly, I don't know. I only have my suspicions.

But one thing that Trump swears by is capitalism. And capitalism [here and now] runs on oil. And much of the oil is buried underground in the Middle East

With capitalism everything revolves around 1] cheap labor 2] markets and 3 natural resources. Good and Evil comes later. For some, much later. And, for others, not at all. Many involved in owning and operating the global economy today are committed nihilists. Their "values" basically revolve around 1] "show me the money" and 2] "what's in it for me?"

For many religious folks, however, it is all about "views", "values". Attached to "souls". Thus the manner in which [historically] points of view [religious or otherwise] are often just reflections of fundamental political and economic interactions and relationships -- "political economy" as Marx framed it -- will hardly ever come up at all.

That "stuff" is all subsumed one way or another in one or another rendition of the Bible.

Unless of course I'm wrong.


Diverting to Trump is off topic for this OP.


True story:

I had initially intended to include my reaction to the OP in my own "on discussing god and religion" thread. I only accidently left it in this thread. My apologies.

The irony here of course is that the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems are all worshipping and adoring the same God! The God of Moses and Abraham.


Prismatic567 wrote: It only supposedly the same God.


Well, here's one take on that: http://www.npr.org/2015/12/20/460480698 ... e-same-god

Like most things of this sort it all gets rather complex and convoluted over time.

Basically [in my view] all you do here is to accumulate your own particular collection of religious prejudices and argue that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to agree.

Or to, among others things, take a leap of faith to.

Much the same way in which those of the Moslem faith do regarding the Bible and the Torah.

SOME Moslems anyway.

Again, my apologies for intruding on your thread. It was not originally my intention.

I'm from the Marvin Harris school of anthropology. The materialists. In other words, in order to understand elements of the "superstructure" in any particular human community, you need first to explore the manner in which it is intertwined [historically] in economic interactions. That's the part that revolves around power. Political power. And that's the part where one or another religious narrative tends to prevail in one or another nation in one or another historical and cultural context..
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:53 am

iambiguous wrote:Basically [in my view] all you do here is to accumulate your own particular collection of religious prejudices and argue that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to agree.

Or to, among others things, take a leap of faith to.

Much the same way in which those of the Moslem faith do regarding the Bible and the Torah.

SOME Moslems anyway.
You are very wrong on this.
The fact is all Christians and Muslims has to rely ultimately on faith, there is no other option for them.
Prove to me I am rely on faith [like Christians and Muslims] rather than empirical justified evidences and reasoned arguments.

The most common news at present is the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME believers who are Muslims. [I insist they are Muslims if you want to debate on this].
Therefore to run away or be an ostrich to this glaring going on is being a very irresponsible human for humanity sake.

I am not into bigotry but my views are opened to debates and discussions. Obviously it is only natural that one should first defend one's own hypothesis with the possibility that one hypothesis is wrong if there are justified evidence.
So far I have not try to stop nor resort to violent intellectual means to stop any one from criticizing my views.

There is no bigotry from me, any one is welcome to argue my views.
But there is one good primal reason why you came in [subliminally driven] with a stab and accusation of bigotry on me. You wanna know and discuss why?? objectively, not blatant accusations. You are into 'Know Thyself.' ??
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Sat May 27, 2017 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat May 27, 2017 7:02 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Although the brains of older people slow down, experience and knowledge more than make up for it, making them wiser than their younger counterparts


For millennia ... in most cultures ... young people would seek advice from their elders ... the experience(s) of elders was considered superior to the knowledge and vigour of the younger inexperienced members of society.

Times they are a changin! :lol:
That is very logical, time wise the elders will have more experiences than the younger groups. But that cannot be a rule because there are so many contexts to take into account over time and circumstances.

It is more true in the olden days in tribal villages and towns without good communications media and internet. Those days, knowledge were embedded in the brain of the elders but in the modern times, experiences of the elders are recorded in all sort of media available in Amazon [e.g.] Wikipedia, Youtube, Facebook. People are too eager to share whatever new knowledge they have as soon as possible.

I don't see anything worthwhile from what you wrote so far, else I would not mind paying to learn from you.

Yes, there will always be some gap between the elders and the younger [along the same subject] but it is very narrow in the present.
Yes, "Times they are a changin!" :lol:

Peace to you on your pilgrimage of life.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat May 27, 2017 7:41 am

Wisdom can't be taught ... nor learned in a book ... nor on Facebook Twitter et al.

Wisdom is something people ... and not all people ... internalize by tripping over the potholes they encounter as they journey through life.

I agree that at the moment you can't 'see' ... I encourage you to be patient.

A sample of Chief Seattle's wisdom ... 1855

His statement is not prophetic ... simply a well articulated extrapolation of what he 'saw' in his lifetime.

Continue to contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.
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