Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:39 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Wisdom can't be taught ... nor learned in a book ... nor on Facebook Twitter et al.

Wisdom is something people ... and not all people ... internalize by tripping over the potholes they encounter as they journey through life.

You are changing the subject from knowledge via experience to wisdom.
Wisdom like intelligence cannot be passed on nor taught directly but knowledge about how to develop wisdom can be taught. That was not the topic.

We were discussing knowledge via experiences that is inter-communicable and exchangeable.
Experiences and knowledge of the elders that can be communicated can inspire thus enhancing the wisdom of others through their own practices.

Peace to you.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby omar » Sat May 27, 2017 11:07 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??

I define "evil" [in a continuum ] as any human act that is committed, intended or potential and is net-negative to the well being to the individual and humanity collectively.

I can consider myself a near-expert on the Quran [studied it full time for few years with basic knowledge of basic Arabic].

My hypothesis to the OP is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.


I think that you are giving Islam too much credit. Religious cruelty begins way before in recorded history in the Old Testament. Are the jews, then, prone to evil? The Spanish Empire wiped out the native empires in central and south America. They also thought of other human beings as cattle, with the blessing I might add of the religious crown in Madrid. It gets better, around this time human beings are tortured and burned for heresy and anything that may contradict scripture-- not in the Koran, but in the Bible. Shouldn't we conclude that the Spanish, the Italians and the English are all evil prone and that the Bible if at least, if not more, dangerous than the Koran?

But no worries. Communism had no Koran, no Bible, only the writings of men like Marx and Engels. "Genocide" never lost its utility. The lesson here is that the violence found in islamicists is not caused by the Koran, otherwise NYC would be a crater. American Muslims are all well versed in the Koran, so why hasn't this caused more violencein cities like New York?
We have examples of violence in the name of some god as well as in the name of the State, the People. The cause of violence is not reducible to a book or a gene located around brown people. Rather violence is caused by a grand perspective, ideals, from which height human life loses its priviledge and high standing as a value in itself. In the name of a revealed God, or a clear Future, genocide becomes a moral immorality, a necessary evil for the greater good etc.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:34 am

omar wrote:I think that you are giving Islam too much credit. Religious cruelty begins way before in recorded history in the Old Testament. Are the jews, then, prone to evil? The Spanish Empire wiped out the native empires in central and south America. They also thought of other human beings as cattle, with the blessing I might add of the religious crown in Madrid. It gets better, around this time human beings are tortured and burned for heresy and anything that may contradict scripture-- not in the Koran, but in the Bible. Shouldn't we conclude that the Spanish, the Italians and the English are all evil prone and that the Bible if at least, if not more, dangerous than the Koran?

But no worries. Communism had no Koran, no Bible, only the writings of men like Marx and Engels. "Genocide" never lost its utility. The lesson here is that the violence found in islamicists is not caused by the Koran, otherwise NYC would be a crater. American Muslims are all well versed in the Koran, so why hasn't this caused more violence in cities like New York?
We have examples of violence in the name of some god as well as in the name of the State, the People. The cause of violence is not reducible to a book or a gene located around brown people. Rather violence is caused by a grand perspective, ideals, from which height human life loses its privilege and high standing as a value in itself. In the name of a revealed God, or a clear Future, genocide becomes a moral immorality, a necessary evil for the greater good etc.

1. DNA wise ALL [100%] humans has the potential to be evil [as defined] and violent.

2. A certain percentile [best guess 20%] are unfortunately born with an activated evil tendency [of various degree] and has difficulty controlling these evil impulse.

3. The above is the fundamental reason why there is so much evils [all types] and violence in the world since human first emerged with self-awareness.

4. All [no exceptions] the above evils and violence must be addressed.

5. To address all the evils and violence in the World effective, we must analyze them into manageable units and trace to their respective root causes. [ a feature of a good problem-solving techniques].

6. From empirical evidences it is noted all the evils and violence in the the world can be classified into two main categories, i.e. secular and religious.

7. So whatever secular evils [wars, communism, drugs, crimes, etc.] you highlighted above must be addressed and resolved.

8. There is no denial there were terrible evil committed by people who identify themselves as religious. The Buddhist monk [by his dressing, etc.] who was anti-Muslim is obviously religious. There are many Jews, Christians, Muslims who commit evils and violence while identifying themselves as believers as a religion.

9. From the above obvious relationship, i.e. believers and evil & violence, thus humanity has an onus to research whether there is a direct link between the religious texts inspiring their believers to commit evil and violence.

10. I have done the relevant extensive research and noted the Quran has tons of evil laden elements that inspire SOME Muslims who were born with evil tendency [2 above] to commit terrible evils and violence in the belief it is their divine duty so that they can be assured of their place in Paradise.

11. The Torah is full of evil and violent contents but these are not in a format that would inspire so many believers to commit evil like Islam. This is why we do not hear of Jews committing terrible evils like the Muslims. Christianity has some evil elements but it has an overriding pacifist maxim, 'love your enemies'.

12. I suggest you do an objective analysis of the 6,236 verses of the Quran in term of its various elements and note its evil elements of various degrees. The most obvious clue is the Quran [Ahadith is worst] has 3,200++ verses [55% :shock: ] that reference non-believers as 'them' [us versus them] in a very negative and in contempt. Such dividing people into in-groups and out-group is the fundamental basis leading to genocide. There are tons of other evil laden elements in the Quran.
Why is a religion [like Islam] SO busybody with the affairs of non-believers to that high a degree!!!
In contrast Buddhist sutras hardly mentioned non-believer but focus mainly on the spiritual development of the individual or society.

13. Why not all Muslims in NYC are committing evil?
As I had mentioned appx. 20% are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Note if you read the various polls you will note a high percentage of Muslims support the various negative elements of Islam, e.g. killing of apostate, stoning people to death, etc.
Whilst 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 million has an active evil tendency [of various degrees] not all will commit evil acts.
But the point is even if 1% commit evils as inspired by the Quran's evil element, that is 15 million of them around the World. That is really scary considering it took only 18++ to do a 911 and lone wolf[s] as evident can create terrible evils, terror and violence.

14. The above is theory but in reality it is well supported by glaring evidences of Muslims committing terrible evils [over the last 1,400 years to the present] as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran. The more terrible evils has related political elements but the main driving force is the evil elements from the Quran.

15. I have identified the fundamental root cause of one type [amongst others] of terrible evil and violence, i.e. Quran-based evils and violence. The obvious solution [theoretical] is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran and Muslims will not be triggered by any Quranic elements to commit terrible evils. If Muslims commit evils, then it has nothing to do with Islam rather it is their own personal evil tendency.

16. Thus Muslims themselves must understand the Quran factually and objective to admit the Quran itself with its tons of evil laden elements is a big part of the problem of evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims. Btw, we cannot blame the Muslims as who were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency as the main culprit. It is the ideology with its evil elements that is the main problem.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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6 Reasons Why ISIS Hate Westerners

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun May 28, 2017 10:31 am

Omar, can you counter this;

Qualification:
Do not blame Muslims per-se for any terror, evils and violence. The are not the primary cause. Rather the root cause is the Islamic ideology as reflected in the Quran and Ahadith.


This information [The Mirror extracted from ISIS's magazine] is critical because the reasons are primarily theological and religious differences justified from the Quran and not political [which is secondary]:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ns-8533563

    1. Because you are disbelievers
    "We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices."

    2 . Because you are liberal
    "We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you Christian disbelief and paganism 32 separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power."

    3. Because some of you are atheist
    "In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator."

    4. For your crimes against Islam
    "We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion."

    5. For your crimes against Muslims
    "We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth."

    6. For invading our lands
    "We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim."

The article concludes that while foreign policy is an issue, the main reason they are hell bent on destruction is because they don't like the West very much.

It reads:
    "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

    "The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.

Most Muslims will insist the followers of ISIS and other extremists interpreted the Quran wrongly. This is misconception. The followers [as Muslims] of ISIS are terrified of Allah [all powerful] and Hell, and there is no way they will twist the words of Allah for any personal benefit.

The majority of the points above are literally represented in the Quran while some may be dualistic, i.e. ambiguous and either way is true. Note the Duck-Rabbit dualistic truth example.

Another critical point is no one on Earth can judge which Muslim is interpreting the text correctly, especially the marginal ones till they meet up with Allah on Judgment Day.
Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist there will always be evil and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and zealously doing what is necessary as their divine duty to please Allah.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby omar » Sun May 28, 2017 8:38 pm

Hello Prismatic

Qualification:
Do not blame Muslims per-se for any terror, evils and violence. The are not the primary cause. Rather the root cause is the Islamic ideology as reflected in the Quran and Ahadith.


Well, first of all why should we take the ISIS, or other terrorist groups interpretations of the Koran as authoritative? I believe these are rationalizations for a need for violent means to achieve political ends, no different than when Moses interpreted God for his people in order to justify genocide. The human filter (editor) is always in effect, so "revelation", and interpretations of those revelations, always say more about the interpreter than about the source document.
I do not blame muslims. I believe you did. I also don't blame books. I can receive today a letter from my Church's pastor saying: "God has instructed us to kill innocent women and children and wipe them out of His Holy Lands"-- doesn't mean I would believe him about his own interpretation about with whom he was having a conversation. But of course, I am a middle class American. How would that run by me between the rubble of Iraq? The point is that the interpretation is determined by the life-circumstance of the interpreter.

This information [The Mirror extracted from ISIS's magazine] is critical because the reasons are primarily theological and religious differences justified from the Quran and not political [which is secondary]:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ns-8533563


According to ISIS. Saying that the political reasons are secondary is not surprising. They are talking about Jihad which is a religious call, not a political one, and so they have no choice but to downplay the primary role of the political factors, even by self delusion.

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.


I only have your word on your familiarity with the Koran. While the Koran, in my reading, is derivative from the other two monotheistic religions that influenced Mohammed, therefore, reflecting all the vices of the other two, there are also passages that have led to tolerance. Ayah 256 is one example. In the 14th century, in a period of strength, Ibn Kathir gave this interpretation:
“(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, ‘Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.’
It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning.“
History has shown us this interpretation in practice in cities like Granada around that same time. I am not saying that there are no troubling passages in the Koran, just as there are in the Torah and in the rest of the Bible, but there has to be a will present, a desire that allows for the most barbaric interpretation of said passages while ignoring all else, including the very nature of that the purport of worship.

Most Muslims will insist the followers of ISIS and other extremists interpreted the Quran wrongly. This is misconception. The followers [as Muslims] of ISIS are terrified of Allah [all powerful] and Hell, and there is no way they will twist the words of Allah for any personal benefit.


You think it is a misconception, let's be clear. Between you and the others there is no priviledge to Truth, no monopoly. Being terrified means nothing as far as granting an interpretation veracity. It explains an interpretation, but does not make that interpretation THE interpretation. An interpretation out of fear is taken in order to assuage that fear, thus, for their personal benefit.

Another critical point is no one on Earth can judge which Muslim is interpreting the text correctly, especially the marginal ones till they meet up with Allah on Judgment Day.


True. They don't have a Pope.

Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist there will always be evil and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and zealously doing what is necessary as their divine duty to please Allah.


I disagree with your interpretation. Pleasing Allah does not equate to evil and violence. Mohammed did not convert all of his allies. Certain Bedouins were simply taxed differently after they acknowledged the primacy of Islam. This is also what we find in Granada, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together even if treated as different by the government. If such moment was repeated, (and I hope not), would evil and violence remain the topics we discuss or simply the unfairness of their tax code?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon May 29, 2017 7:45 am

Peace Omar,
I can receive today a letter from my Church's pastor saying: "God has instructed us to kill innocent women and children and wipe them out of His Holy Lands"-- doesn't mean I would believe him about his own interpretation about with whom he was having a conversation. But of course, I am a middle class American. How would that run by me between the rubble of Iraq? The point is that the interpretation is determined by the life-circumstance of the interpreter.
I had presumed you were likely a Muslim due to your nick, 'Omar.' From the above, I suppose you are a Christian.

The context is the Muslims concerned are reading directly from the Quran not receiving a letter from their imam.
We can also confirm the various evil laden verses from the Quran by reading it ourselves.

Prismatic wrote:Qualification:
Do not blame Muslims per-se for any terror, evils and violence. The are not the primary cause. Rather the root cause is the Islamic ideology as reflected in the Quran and Ahadith.


Omar wrote:I do not blame muslims. I believe you did. I also don't blame books.
I already qualify I don't why do you insist I blame the Muslims. Obviously those who had committed a crime in the eyes of the Law of the Land must be accountable for it, but the primarily blame [for preventive basis] should not be on the one who commit the crime in this case. My point is the ultimate root cause in this case is the evil verses from the Quran.

Well, first of all why should we take the ISIS, or other terrorist groups interpretations of the Koran as authoritative? I believe these are rationalizations for a need for violent means to achieve political ends, no different than when Moses interpreted God for his people in order to justify genocide. The human filter (editor) is always in effect, so "revelation", and interpretations of those revelations, always say more about the interpreter than about the source document.
This information [The Mirror extracted from ISIS's magazine] is critical because the reasons are primarily theological and religious differences justified from the Quran and not political [which is secondary]:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ns-8533563

According to ISIS. Saying that the political reasons are secondary is not surprising. They are talking about Jihad which is a religious call, not a political one, and so they have no choice but to downplay the primary role of the political factors, even by self delusion.
As I had stated the statements by the followers of ISIS are supported by verses in the Quran. At this point it is too tedious for me to compile all the relevant verses into here.
But here is one telling verse of how SOME Muslims are inspired to fight and kill non-Muslims who condemned with the most derogatory term all over the Quran.

    22:39. Sanction [udhina: permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged* [ẓulimū; ZLM; by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory [naṣrihim];

The Arabic language is based on a root system where the major words are of trilateral roots. The critical word here is 'zulimu' a derivative from the root ZLM. What is zulimu [wronged] cover all sorts of negatives by the non-Muslims which include being a disbeliever [Kafir -KFR] and worst of all praying to idols, i.e. Shirk [ShRK].

Other than direct commands by Allah that condone the attacks on non-Muslims, Muslims will counter they are allow to attack on the basis of self-defense or defending their religion and fellow Muslims if they are wronged [zulimu] [ZLM] in in cases of Zulm or zalim [wrongdoings].

Now the point is anything negative [regardless of degrees] to Islam and Muslims is construed as zulimu or zalim. Note the case of drawing of cartoons and anything that any Muslim feel offended is regarded as zulimu thus warrant a counter attack on non-Muslims per 22:39 and other verses.

These Muslims are complying with edict of Allah, so who on Earth can insist they are wrong? To them these evil Muslims believe they are doing the right/good [ihsan] thing as a divine duty to please Allah and only Allah can judge them on Judgment Day.

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.

I only have your word on your familiarity with the Koran.
Fair enough.
Since I was last active here, I had spent almost 2+ years researching and analyzing the Quran full-time [note] and in addition learning basic [not advanced] Arabic and Quranic Grammar. I have read the whole Quran at one go, more than 60 times and have read extensive commentaries [tafsir] plus done extensive research and analysis of the major root words. Everytime I encountered an issue I refer to 50+ English translation of the Quran with Arabic transliteration and in Arabic [up to my level].
The only proof is for me to quote the relevant verses as the situation permit.

While the Koran, in my reading, is derivative from the other two monotheistic religions that influenced Mohammed, therefore, reflecting all the vices of the other two, there are also passages that have led to tolerance. Ayah 256 is one example. In the 14th century, in a period of strength, Ibn Kathir gave this interpretation:
“(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, ‘Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.’
It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning.“
History has shown us this interpretation in practice in cities like Granada around that same time. I am not saying that there are no troubling passages in the Koran, just as there are in the Torah and in the rest of the Bible, but there has to be a will present, a desire that allows for the most barbaric interpretation of said passages while ignoring all else, including the very nature of that the purport of worship.
In view of the seriousness of Islamic-based evil around the World I have taken the unpleasant task of mastering the essence of the Quran.
Until proven, I don't see you have any depth in your knowledge of the Quran.

As for this 2:256 no compulsion verse, as a convenience note this counter.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightat ... -in-islam/

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.

The issue of 'compulsion' has no relevance to Muslims being sanctioned by Allah to fight and kill non-Muslims re Zulimu 2:39 or due to it synonym, corruption [fasad -FSD].

Most Muslims will insist the followers of ISIS and other extremists interpreted the Quran wrongly. This is misconception. The followers [as Muslims] of ISIS are terrified of Allah [all powerful] and Hell, and there is no way they will twist the words of Allah for any personal benefit.


You think it is a misconception, let's be clear. Between you and the others there is no priviledge to Truth, no monopoly. Being terrified means nothing as far as granting an interpretation veracity. It explains an interpretation, but does not make that interpretation THE interpretation. An interpretation out of fear is taken in order to assuage that fear, thus, for their personal benefit.
Another critical point is no one on Earth can judge which Muslim is interpreting the text correctly, especially the marginal ones till they meet up with Allah on Judgment Day.

True. They don't have a Pope.
That is my point.
Note many verses are dualistic [see a duck or rabbit?, either is true] which can represent two truth where either can be true.
In the case of 22:39, if a Muslim decide to fight and kill in the believe the non-Muslims has committed zulimu [ZLM] or fasad [FSD] who are you, me or anyone to insist they are wrong?
They will continue to fight and kill non-Muslims till judgment day.

Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist there will always be evil and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and zealously doing what is necessary as their divine duty to please Allah.


I disagree with your interpretation. Pleasing Allah does not equate to evil and violence. Mohammed did not convert all of his allies. Certain Bedouins were simply taxed differently after they acknowledged the primacy of Islam. This is also what we find in Granada, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together even if treated as different by the government. If such moment was repeated, (and I hope not), would evil and violence remain the topics we discuss or simply the unfairness of their tax code?
Note not all Muslims are evil and violent prone.
But as I had demonstrated there are a natural percentile [conservatively say 20%] of Muslims like all humans who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency thus prone to commit evil and violence when triggered by element laden elements such as those [some] in the Quran.

These evil prone Muslims in their zeal will be inclined towards verses with elements that fit their propensities. This is a very natural thing. In their mind they are not committing evil but rather they are following the command of Allah in the Quran as a divine duty and doing good [ihsan] acts.

The problem and mistake is the Quran which include evil and violent prone elements in its verses. Religions like Buddhism and Jainism who understood the vulnerabilities of human nature are wiser in ensuring there are no* verses with evil elements in their holy texts so that it is foolproof and no evil believers can abuse the religion. * if any [rare] are well qualified to prevent abuse.

Christianity is also wiser is establishing an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love your enemies unconditionally. Thus if one kill rather than love one's enemies, God will eventually condemned him/her for disobedience, unless that is a good reason for doing so.

Islam on the other hand is open ended to evils and violence based on certain conditions or direct command.

There are many positives associated with Muslims and this is because these Muslims are good human beings who are more inclined to higher human values and they ignored the negative evil ethos of the Quran. So it is the Muslims who are good as human beings and not because Islam is good as a religion.

The Quran exhort Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend [awliyaa] with non-Muslims.

    3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatan بِطَانَةً ب ط ن ] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum عَنِتُّمْ ع ن ت ] you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations [AYW; ayah] if ye will understand.

Surely those who befriend non-Muslims are in contravention of the above verse and others of the likes and had disobeyed Allah which is a serious sin. In practice most Muslims will befriend non-Muslims as driven by normal human values and opposing Quranic values. On Judgment Day, I bet Allah will f.. them on this non-compliance.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby omar » Mon May 29, 2017 9:12 pm

Hello Prismatic

The context is the Muslims concerned are reading directly from the Quran not receiving a letter from their imam.
We can also confirm the various evil laden verses from the Quran by reading it ourselves.


A letter or a book is always written by a person. The point is that a human authority figure, be it a pastor, an iman, a rabbi, or Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi still remains subject to a personal judgment, my judgment, your judgment, their judgment. There are troublesome verses in the Bible, the Torah as well, which were acted upon resulting in the suffering of innocents--I have already made that point. Mohammed was influenced by both Christianity and Judaism, as he interpreted them and so the faults in the Koran are not always original. In fact the closely resemble the faults of the Torah and for similar reasons. Unlike Christianity, The bulk of the Torah was a political artifact, built to sanctify a political entity as the grand result of God's hand in history. Thus it provided guidance on how to run a state, laws for the people, laws for how to treat slaves, wives, and the stranger. Worse than the Koran, the Torah pretty much describes genocide in the name of God. Those verses still exist. So why don't we have jewish massacres? Because they are in a position of power.

I already qualify I don't why do you insist I blame the Muslims. Obviously those who had committed a crime in the eyes of the Law of the Land must be accountable for it, but the primarily blame [for preventive basis] should not be on the one who commit the crime in this case. My point is the ultimate root cause in this case is the evil verses from the Quran.


Well, here is the problem with that qualification: as I already mentioned, the Bible contains troublesome passages, so why not ban that book? If you mention the evil terrorists commit, then I have a number of examples from history where Christians were more evil, to the point that the refuge for jews was found in Muslim lands, which would be hard to explain, if you were right and evil is caused, at least in part, by this Book that existed even then. The beheadings of today fall short of the Inquisition.
You also add to the causality of evil a natural propensity for aggression in a small percentage of the population. Well perhaps then that would mean that in the absence of a Koran something else would take its place for those that have that propensity. If that propensity is not tied to brown people but is a universal trait, even in that low percentage then that would actually explain the historical examples I have used, such as the Inquisition. However, if that is so, then the Holy Book of choice is accidental. If you are bound and determined to bash someone's head then a steel bar is as useful as a proper hammer and you will have no qualms to pick whichever, but probably pick the closest one to you.

Other than direct commands by Allah that condone the attacks on non-Muslims, Muslims will counter they are allow to attack on the basis of self-defense or defending their religion and fellow Muslims if they are wronged [zulimu] [ZLM] in in cases of Zulm or zalim [wrongdoings].

Now the point is anything negative [regardless of degrees] to Islam and Muslims is construed as zulimu or zalim. Note the case of drawing of cartoons and anything that any Muslim feel offended is regarded as zulimu thus warrant a counter attack on non-Muslims per 22:39 and other verses.

These Muslims are complying with edict of Allah, so who on Earth can insist they are wrong? To them these evil Muslims believe they are doing the right/good [ihsan] thing as a divine duty to please Allah and only Allah can judge them on Judgment Day.


When Christians were burning heretics, do you think that they were doing because they liked it, or do you think that they felt that they had the sacred duty to do what they did? Who could stand in front of such men when they decided not to suffer a witch? Who could argue against slavery when it is clear in the Bible that God even has rules about slavery, thus slavery was a sacred institution?
The inconvenient fact is that in all of this is that over 90% of the victims of ISIS are in fact Muslims, and that overall the majority of the casualties in acts of terror have been Muslims. The Koran is one Book, but after the death of Mohammed Islam has been divided into two groups as you well know. ISIS is not about making others submit to Allah, but to Submit to itself, to ISIS alone. It is Muslim against Muslim, no one but God ever able to settle who is the proper successor to Mohammed. How was this seemingly eternal battle caused by verses in the Koran?

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.


I know what you have seen. I read the book. But again, what I saw was a book similar in tone to the Bible. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is actually better. The "evil" in the Koran is the same "evil" Roman philosophers, and polytheists in general, found in the Bible. Monotheism is based on a principle that leads down a path of intolerance. That the Church today has been defanged and stripped of political power does not mean that tolerance is inherent in its Scripture. Government policies are more benign because, for the most part, representatives do not resort to the Torah for guidance.

Until proven, I don't see you have any depth in your knowledge of the Quran.


My argument does not rest on my claim to expertise in all things Muslim. You say that the verses in the Koran are the cause (in combination with a natural dispotion in a minority of brown people) for evil acts. My counter is that evil, such as the Inquisition, was not based on Koranic verses, nor conducted by Sunni Muslims. In fact Muslims in those times offered refuge to those fleeing the Inquisition. Where were the evil acts against those Jews and Christians expected if your diagnosis was accurate? And how was such an evil as the Inquisition (not to mention the Holocaust) possible when we had taken that crucial ingredient (Koranic verses) in the causal chain of evil acts (and that is me leaving you the possible angle that the natural disposition is universal to humanity)?

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.


Just as there have been compulsion in the 2000 year old history of Christianity, directly or indirectly.

But as I had demonstrated there are a natural percentile [conservatively say 20%] of Muslims like all humans who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency thus prone to commit evil and violence when triggered by element laden elements such as those [some] in the Quran.


Fair enough. If the tendency is universal, at a conservative 20%, then the Koran itself is accidental in all of this, as I explained above.

These evil prone Muslims in their zeal will be inclined towards verses with elements that fit their propensities. This is a very natural thing. In their mind they are not committing evil but rather they are following the command of Allah in the Quran as a divine duty and doing good [ihsan] acts.


And the other 80% what does the Koran mean?

Christianity is also wiser is establishing an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love your enemies unconditionally. Thus if one kill rather than love one's enemies, God will eventually condemned him/her for disobedience, unless that is a good reason for doing so.


I think that you are ignoring much greater evils committed by Christianity in the name of God to strengthen your argument. The Inquisition made political use of verses like Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. 20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.”
Thousands have died because of this and other similar verses in the "Holy" Bible, yet I don't hear you calling for the removal of the Bible because it can cause evil even though we see that in fact it has caused evil on a much grand scale than the Koran. You say that "Islam on the other hand is open ended to evils and violence based on certain conditions or direct command." however Islam has also provided safe haven for Jews during persecution from Christians, which is hard to explain if your diagnistic is correct and the Koran is in fact a more dangerous factor in acts of evil.

There are many positives associated with Muslims and this is because these Muslims are good human beings who are more inclined to higher human values and they ignored the negative evil ethos of the Quran. So it is the Muslims who are good as human beings and not because Islam is good as a religion.


I could say the same about Christians and their Bible.

The Quran exhort Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend [awliyaa] with non-Muslims.


But again, what does Deuteronomy say?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue May 30, 2017 6:15 am

omar wrote:A letter or a book is always written by a person. The point is that a human authority figure, be it a pastor, an iman, a rabbi, or Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi still remains subject to a personal judgment, my judgment, your judgment, their judgment. There are troublesome verses in the Bible, the Torah as well, which were acted upon resulting in the suffering of innocents--I have already made that point. Mohammed was influenced by both Christianity and Judaism, as he interpreted them and so the faults in the Koran are not always original. In fact the closely resemble the faults of the Torah and for similar reasons. Unlike Christianity, The bulk of the Torah was a political artifact, built to sanctify a political entity as the grand result of God's hand in history. Thus it provided guidance on how to run a state, laws for the people, laws for how to treat slaves, wives, and the stranger. Worse than the Koran, the Torah pretty much describes genocide in the name of God. Those verses still exist. So why don't we have jewish massacres? Because they are in a position of power.
Just to make it clear.
I am against all types of evil, be it secular, religious or others.
Thus I will condemn evils committed by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

But the main point here is this thread and OP is about Islam not other religions. This is why I am focusing on Islam and the root causes of Islamic-based evil.

As a side point, I believe Islamic based evils and tracing its root causes deserved greater attention in the present due to the greater statistics of evils committed by Islamists [over the last 20 years] making obvious references to Islam via Allahu Akbar and quoting Quranic verses.

I already qualify I don't why do you insist I blame the Muslims. Obviously those who had committed a crime in the eyes of the Law of the Land must be accountable for it, but the primarily blame [for preventive basis] should not be on the one who commit the crime in this case. My point is the ultimate root cause in this case is the evil verses from the Quran.


Well, here is the problem with that qualification: as I already mentioned, the Bible contains troublesome passages, so why not ban that book? If you mention the evil terrorists commit, then I have a number of examples from history where Christians were more evil, to the point that the refuge for jews was found in Muslim lands, which would be hard to explain, if you were right and evil is caused, at least in part, by this Book that existed even then. The beheadings of today fall short of the Inquisition.
You also add to the causality of evil a natural propensity for aggression in a small percentage of the population. Well perhaps then that would mean that in the absence of a Koran something else would take its place for those that have that propensity. If that propensity is not tied to brown people but is a universal trait, even in that low percentage then that would actually explain the historical examples I have used, such as the Inquisition. However, if that is so, then the Holy Book of choice is accidental. If you are bound and determined to bash someone's head then a steel bar is as useful as a proper hammer and you will have no qualms to pick whichever, but probably pick the closest one to you.

There are two main root causes of Islamic based terror, i.e.

1. The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million potential]
2. Evil laden verses in the Quran & Ahadith.

It is obvious out of this 20% some will kill, rape, rob, steal, lie, and commit all sorts of evil without any reference to the Quran. Say 50 million, 16.7% of the 300 million.
But is it undeniable some Muslims will kill, rape, lie, and commit other evils as influenced by the verses in the Quran in the believe they are carry such as a divine duty to please Allah in his striving [jihad] for Allah's cause [Sabil]. Say another 30 million or 10% of 300 million.

These numbers are alarming.
Say if we can get rid of the Quran [not possible in practice] then humanity will avoid the evil committed by 30 million who are inspired by the Quranic verses.
As for the 50 million Muslims who commit non-religious based evils, we will have to deal with them in the secular ways.


Other than direct commands by Allah that condone the attacks on non-Muslims, Muslims will counter they are allow to attack on the basis of self-defense or defending their religion and fellow Muslims if they are wronged [zulimu] [ZLM] in in cases of Zulm or zalim [wrongdoings].

Now the point is anything negative [regardless of degrees] to Islam and Muslims is construed as zulimu or zalim. Note the case of drawing of cartoons and anything that any Muslim feel offended is regarded as zulimu thus warrant a counter attack on non-Muslims per 22:39 and other verses.

These Muslims are complying with edict of Allah, so who on Earth can insist they are wrong? To them these evil Muslims believe they are doing the right/good [ihsan] thing as a divine duty to please Allah and only Allah can judge them on Judgment Day.


When Christians were burning heretics, do you think that they were doing because they liked it, or do you think that they felt that they had the sacred duty to do what they did? Who could stand in front of such men when they decided not to suffer a witch? Who could argue against slavery when it is clear in the Bible that God even has rules about slavery, thus slavery was a sacred institution?
The inconvenient fact is that in all of this is that over 90% of the victims of ISIS are in fact Muslims, and that overall the majority of the casualties in acts of terror have been Muslims. The Koran is one Book, but after the death of Mohammed Islam has been divided into two groups as you well know. ISIS is not about making others submit to Allah, but to Submit to itself, to ISIS alone. It is Muslim against Muslim, no one but God ever able to settle who is the proper successor to Mohammed. How was this seemingly eternal battle caused by verses in the Koran?
The fact that over 90% of ISIS victims are Muslims is not an excuse not to focus on the Quran and Islam itself. ISIS is not the only source of evil Muslims. There are evil Muslims inspired by evil laden verses in the Quran from all over the world, killing and oppressing non-Muslims and other Muslims not their kind.

The Quran itself also provide avenues for Muslims to identify and label other Muslims as apostates and hypocrites [munafiq -NFQ] who should be condemned and can be fought and killed.

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.


I know what you have seen. I read the book. But again, what I saw was a book similar in tone to the Bible. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is actually better. The "evil" in the Koran is the same "evil" Roman philosophers, and polytheists in general, found in the Bible. Monotheism is based on a principle that leads down a path of intolerance. That the Church today has been defanged and stripped of political power does not mean that tolerance is inherent in its Scripture. Government policies are more benign because, for the most part, representatives do not resort to the Torah for guidance.
The ethos of evil are different in each book when infused with the psychopathy of the author[s]. And the ethos that in imputed into the Quran is really terrible and amplified to a greater worse when this is leverage of the fear of death and hope for eternal life. The extreme is there is no compromise with God's mercy and if God command one to kill one's child, one will volunteer or have to do it or else it will be hell.

Side point; A Christian will risk being fucked by God is s/he kill even his/enemies as this overriding pacifist statement is commanded in the NT. Unfortunately some Christian do kill but they will definitely be screwed by their God on Judgment Day for their disobedience.
On the other hand, the Quran is open ended and Allah will praise those who killed whoever is deemed to be the enemy who has committed zulimu [ZLM].

Until proven, I don't see you have any depth in your knowledge of the Quran.


My argument does not rest on my claim to expertise in all things Muslim. You say that the verses in the Koran are the cause (in combination with a natural disposition in a minority of brown people) for evil acts. My counter is that evil, such as the Inquisition, was not based on Koranic verses, nor conducted by Sunni Muslims. In fact Muslims in those times offered refuge to those fleeing the Inquisition. Where were the evil acts against those Jews and Christians expected if your diagnosis was accurate? And how was such an evil as the Inquisition (not to mention the Holocaust) possible when we had taken that crucial ingredient (Koranic verses) in the causal chain of evil acts (and that is me leaving you the possible angle that the natural disposition is universal to humanity)?
You got it wrong! I did not mentioned "Brown People" but rather it is whoever is a Muslim who can be white, yellow, black, brown, etc.
Note my argument on this above re the two root causes, i.e. the 20% of evil people and evil laden verses in the Quran [or wherever, Torah, Bible].

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.


Just as there have been compulsion in the 2000 year old history of Christianity, directly or indirectly.
Christianity is off topic for this OP.

But as I had demonstrated there are a natural percentile [conservatively say 20%] of Muslims like all humans who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency thus prone to commit evil and violence when triggered by element laden elements such as those [some] in the Quran.


Fair enough. If the tendency is universal, at a conservative 20%, then the Koran itself is accidental in all of this, as I explained above.
Nope the Quran is a factor which must be addressed.
Re this OP, the Quran [in part] is the main contributor to Islamic-based evils.

These evil prone Muslims in their zeal will be inclined towards verses with elements that fit their propensities. This is a very natural thing. In their mind they are not committing evil but rather they are following the command of Allah in the Quran as a divine duty and doing good [ihsan] acts.


And the other 80% what does the Koran mean?
Most of the 80% do not read the Quran seriously to assess how to be a true Muslim.
To be a true a Muslim, one must follow all the commands by Allah 100% to one best ability as per the covenant entered into with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise. This will include not befriending non-Muslims, defending Muslim land and Islam where possible and fighting non-Muslims who has committed zulimu [ZLM].
Many of the 80% even they read the Quran or are preached by imans do not follow verbatim what is in the Quran because they are more inclined to human values than Quranic values.

Christianity is also wiser is establishing an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love your enemies unconditionally. Thus if one kill rather than love one's enemies, God will eventually condemned him/her for disobedience, unless that is a good reason for doing so.


I think that you are ignoring much greater evils committed by Christianity in the name of God to strengthen your argument. The Inquisition made political use of verses like Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. 20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.”
Thousands have died because of this and other similar verses in the "Holy" Bible, yet I don't hear you calling for the removal of the Bible because it can cause evil even though we see that in fact it has caused evil on a much grand scale than the Koran. You say that "Islam on the other hand is open ended to evils and violence based on certain conditions or direct command." however Islam has also provided safe haven for Jews during persecution from Christians, which is hard to explain if your diagnistic is correct and the Koran is in fact a more dangerous factor in acts of evil.
Nope, the OT is basically abrogated by the NT where is the overriding pacifist maxim, 'love your enemies'.

There are many positives associated with Muslims and this is because these Muslims are good human beings who are more inclined to higher human values and they ignored the negative evil ethos of the Quran. So it is the Muslims who are good as human beings and not because Islam is good as a religion.


I could say the same about Christians and their Bible.

The Quran exhort Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend [awliyaa] with non-Muslims.

But again, what does Deuteronomy say?
Generally, all evils wherever their sources must be addressed and dealt with.
This OP is focused on evils and violence from the evil laden verses in the Quran that inspired some evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

The obvious solution [theoretically] is to get rid of those evil laden verses in the Quran or if need be the Quran itself. Then logically there will be no more Islamic-based evils and violence.
All other evils must be addressed and dealt with accordingly without exceptions.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue May 30, 2017 9:07 am

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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 6:15 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Islamic terror by SOME evil prone Muslims is in the News almost everyday.
However I wonder why the majority humanity as a whole is so "silent" on this issue in getting to the root causes and more so to shut any one up when the topic is brought up. Why??

I define "evil" [in a continuum ] as any human act that is committed, intended or potential and is net-negative to the well being to the individual and humanity collectively.

I can consider myself a near-expert on the Quran [studied it full time for few years with basic knowledge of basic Arabic].

My hypothesis to the OP is because the Quran [core of Islam] is full of malignant evil elements that influenced SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with active evil tendencies.
Therefore as long as Islam [with the Quran as it it] exists, there will always be terrible Islamic-based evils.

But what is beneficial to the human species?
Islam forbids adultery, alcohol, pork, shellfish, as well as a whole slew of other things many people enjoy but can sometimes get us into trouble.
Is it beneficial to have such laws?
How can we measure such things?
And of course Islam is more than just politics and law, it has ethical and theological doctrines, and metaphysical implications.

Would society be happier and healthier if the majority of us were to adopt it, and impose it on minorities, or at least relegate them to second class citizenry?
Or is western civilization on the right track?
Perhaps only time will tell, but it's because of western civilization, its science, society and technology that we have global warming, and the atom bomb, and mass obesity, and mass cancer, aids and so forth, the degeneration of the family, community, and on and on, plastic surgery, frankenfood...

Perhaps there are things we can learn even from Islam...maybe things aren't so black/white after all.
I would say, let every civilization develop on its own terms...let's not put all our eggs in one basket.
By intervening over there, for highly suspicious, arguably imperialistic reasons, we're in many cases further radicalizing them, and fostering Islams more aggressive elements.
If they truly want secular democracy, let them take it, just as we took it, and cease intervening, especially directly, after all who're we to judge?
Our civilization may be a tiny blip, it may go just as quickly as it came.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 6:47 am

Terrorism is the only way many Islamic fundamentalists feel they can fight back against a civilization many times mightier, more militarily and technologically advanced and organized than themselves, and in many cases it is indeed they who're fighting back, in defense of, not just their religion, but their civilization, their culture, their lives and livelihood, while we fight forward, offensively/imperialistically.
Yea there are passages of the Koran that could easily be interpreted as condoning this sort of thing, especially by psychopaths, sociopaths and those under their influence or sway, but western foreign policy is probably just as much or more to blame.

That being said, it could also be a racial or cultural thing, why Islam is so aggressive, even geographic.
Does a hot climate make one hotheaded?
Islam was born in the desert, and, while you're probably more versed in it and its origins than I, so correct me if I'm wrong, among warlords and pastoral nomads, though Muhammad himself was a pretty savvy guy for his time, he was a merchant.
The original Arabs of the Arabian desert peninsula were by and large a highly mobilized, warrior society, even thou some oases could support limited sedentary agriculture and trade, and so the religion took on such characteristics and such characteristics tended to remain, even when it spread to more civilized parts of North Africa and the Mid East, such as Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia.
Last edited by Gloominary on Wed May 31, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed May 31, 2017 8:27 am

Gloominary wrote:Terrorism is the only way many Islamic fundamentalists feel they can fight back against a civilization many times mightier, more militarily and technologically advanced and organized than themselves, and in many cases it is indeed they who're fighting back, in defense of, not just their religion, but their civilization, their culture, their lives and livelihood, while we fight forward, offensively/imperialistically.
Yea there are passages of the Koran that could easily be interpreted as condoning this sort of thing, especially by psychopaths, sociopaths and those under their influence or sway, but western foreign policy is probably just as much or more to blame.
....
Noted your points in the above two posts which are over.

Here, I believed is a more thematic presentation.

1. DNA wise all humans are born with an existential crisis, a dilemma that cannot be resolved at all, thus a cognitive dissonance and generating terrible psychological angst.
see this post The fear of death is innate.
viewtopic.php?p=2665000#p2665000

2. The most effective solution to soothe the terrible psychological angst is religions of various types and other psychological security blankets.

3. Over the eons of human existence to the present humans has been clinging to whatever is presented to them as a soteriological salvation in whatever the form of religions they found soothing to their soul. However there are many humans who used religions to exploit and control the masses.

4. The existential crisis in all humans is permanent but the religions they adopt to soothe their soul can make a difference to humanity. For example, note Buddhism and Jainism which do not has any significant violent elements in its holy texts. In this case, there is no opportunity for any Buddhist who are evil prone to be inspired by Buddhism per-se to commit terrible evils and violence. Evil prone Buddhists, e.g. in Myanmar did commit violence but they were not inspired by Buddhism but rather were driven by their own personal evil psychology.

5. On the other hand, the Quran of Islam contain loads of evil laden elements supposedly condoned by Allah. Because such evil elements are from Allah and inspire SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence in the name of Islam, then Islam has to take the blame. The solution is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran. Unfortunately the Quran claim itself to be immutable - cannot be changed - thus the evil elements are stuck in the religion of Islam which will permanently inspire SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone to commit evils and violence with sanction from Allah.

6. How the evil elements got into the Quran is due to the partial evil ethos of the founder Muhammad or the groups of humans who compiled. This is how Hitler who had evil and psychopathic tendencies imbued those evil elements into his Main Kempf.
Like the Main Kempf, the Quran definitely has good elements [as mentioned by you above] but the problem is it has loads of evil elements and the Quran is supposedly worst than Main Kempf in its view of the Jews plus terrible contempts and hatred for Christians and non-Muslims.
This is why Iran and many Muslims want to wipe Israels off the face of the Earth as inspired by Allah's hatred for the Jews as in the Quran.

7. The above is the basis why Islam-in-part is SO evil. There is no doubts on this thesis as the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran are so evident at present and over the last 1,400 years of Islam's history.

8. Throughout human history the minority has always used terrorism and other techniques to strive for their rights [blacks, slaves, race, apartheid] without the need to resort to using religions [supposedly peaceful].

9. To say that Islam is used by Muslims to fight the majority is not the critical point. The major mission of Islam is to dominate the world and suppress non-believers by whatever the means. That the Taliban tried to murder Malala on the basis of education has nothing to do with fighting the majority. Note Boko Haram is against progressive education. There are cultural genocides going on all over the world where Islam exists. Islam is against anything that is progressive except whatever is approved in the Quran. So Islamic terrorism main purpose is to terrorize the non-believers and not mainly to fight against bigger nations [which is an excuse].

10. So why Islam emerged is grounded on the human DNA. The problem is Islam-in-part is very malignant and will be a threat [since they are indifferent to a M.A.D] to the survival of the human species in the future when WMDs are easily available.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 3:29 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Terrorism is the only way many Islamic fundamentalists feel they can fight back against a civilization many times mightier, more militarily and technologically advanced and organized than themselves, and in many cases it is indeed they who're fighting back, in defense of, not just their religion, but their civilization, their culture, their lives and livelihood, while we fight forward, offensively/imperialistically.
Yea there are passages of the Koran that could easily be interpreted as condoning this sort of thing, especially by psychopaths, sociopaths and those under their influence or sway, but western foreign policy is probably just as much or more to blame.
....
Noted your points in the above two posts which are over.

Here, I believed is a more thematic presentation.

1. DNA wise all humans are born with an existential crisis, a dilemma that cannot be resolved at all, thus a cognitive dissonance and generating terrible psychological angst.
see this post The fear of death is innate.
viewtopic.php?p=2665000#p2665000

2. The most effective solution to soothe the terrible psychological angst is religions of various types and other psychological security blankets.

3. Over the eons of human existence to the present humans has been clinging to whatever is presented to them as a soteriological salvation in whatever the form of religions they found soothing to their soul. However there are many humans who used religions to exploit and control the masses.

4. The existential crisis in all humans is permanent but the religions they adopt to soothe their soul can make a difference to humanity. For example, note Buddhism and Jainism which do not has any significant violent elements in its holy texts. In this case, there is no opportunity for any Buddhist who are evil prone to be inspired by Buddhism per-se to commit terrible evils and violence. Evil prone Buddhists, e.g. in Myanmar did commit violence but they were not inspired by Buddhism but rather were driven by their own personal evil psychology.

5. On the other hand, the Quran of Islam contain loads of evil laden elements supposedly condoned by Allah. Because such evil elements are from Allah and inspire SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence in the name of Islam, then Islam has to take the blame. The solution is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran. Unfortunately the Quran claim itself to be immutable - cannot be changed - thus the evil elements are stuck in the religion of Islam which will permanently inspire SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone to commit evils and violence with sanction from Allah.

6. How the evil elements got into the Quran is due to the partial evil ethos of the founder Muhammad or the groups of humans who compiled. This is how Hitler who had evil and psychopathic tendencies imbued those evil elements into his Main Kempf.
Like the Main Kempf, the Quran definitely has good elements [as mentioned by you above] but the problem is it has loads of evil elements and the Quran is supposedly worst than Main Kempf in its view of the Jews plus terrible contempts and hatred for Christians and non-Muslims.
This is why Iran and many Muslims want to wipe Israels off the face of the Earth as inspired by Allah's hatred for the Jews as in the Quran.

7. The above is the basis why Islam-in-part is SO evil. There is no doubts on this thesis as the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran are so evident at present and over the last 1,400 years of Islam's history.

8. Throughout human history the minority has always used terrorism and other techniques to strive for their rights [blacks, slaves, race, apartheid] without the need to resort to using religions [supposedly peaceful].

9. To say that Islam is used by Muslims to fight the majority is not the critical point. The major mission of Islam is to dominate the world and suppress non-believers by whatever the means. That the Taliban tried to murder Malala on the basis of education has nothing to do with fighting the majority. Note Boko Haram is against progressive education. There are cultural genocides going on all over the world where Islam exists. Islam is against anything that is progressive except whatever is approved in the Quran. So Islamic terrorism main purpose is to terrorize the non-believers and not mainly to fight against bigger nations [which is an excuse].

10. So why Islam emerged is grounded on the human DNA. The problem is Islam-in-part is very malignant and will be a threat [since they are indifferent to a M.A.D] to the survival of the human species in the future when WMDs are easily available.

Althou I've never read the Koran, it'm sure you're right, that it's an inherently imperialistic religion, comparable to the ideology of Nazism, thou I'm not sure it outright condones terrorism.
Still western imperialism and terrorism isn't helping.
I have absolutely no desire to have a secular crusade against Islam, I would just forbid or restrict immigration from Muslim countries, give Muslims multiple psychological evaluations before they're permitted access, I certainly wouldn't just open the floodgates and let thousands-millions of refugees come pouring in, especially from places rife with radicals and terrorists like Saudi Arabia, Islams birthplace.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:51 am

Gloominary wrote:Although I've never read the Koran, it'm sure you're right, that it's an inherently imperialistic religion, comparable to the ideology of Nazism, thou I'm not sure it outright condones terrorism.
Still western imperialism and terrorism isn't helping.
I have absolutely no desire to have a secular crusade against Islam, I would just forbid or restrict immigration from Muslim countries, give Muslims multiple psychological evaluations before they're permitted access, I certainly wouldn't just open the floodgates and let thousands-millions of refugees come pouring in, especially from places rife with radicals and terrorists like Saudi Arabia, Islams birthplace.

It would better it you read the Quran to confirm your thesis [abstracted from obvious empirical evidences]. One problem is the Quran is very difficult to read [messy and badly organized]. One has to put in a lot of work and time to grasp and understand the purpose[s] of the Quran.

Once one has a good grasp and understood the Quran thoroughly, one will note the Quran do condones terrorism from its various verses to terrorize non-believers and Muslim hypocrites.

    3:151. We [Allah] shall cast terror [R3B: l-ruʿ'ba] into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [ShRK: ashrakū idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers [l-ẓālimīna] [infidels].

    8:57. If thou comest [tathqafannahum; dominate] on them [infidels] in the war, deal with them [infidels] so as to strike fear [ShRD: fasharrid; scamper] [terror] in those [infidels] who are behind them [infidels], that haply they [infidels] may remember. [yadhakkarūna]

    9:123. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Fight [qatilu; wage war] those of the disbelievers [infidels] who are near to you [neighborhood], and let them [the infidels] find harshness [GhLZ: ghil'ẓatan: severity] in you [Muslims], and know that Allah is with those [Muslims] who keep their duty (unto Him).

    9:126. See they [infidels] not [Do the infidels ever realized] that they [infidels] are tested once or twice in every year? Still they [infidels] turn not in repentance, neither pay [do] they [infidels] [take] heed.

There are many verses in the Quran along the same vein as the above in condoning terror.

In one famous authoritative Guide for Muslims [Reliance of the Traveler], they are reminded to strike terrors on non-believers at least twice a year [9:126] to keep non-Muslims on their toes as a mode to show Islam's dominance. This instructions is taken seriously and that is why the evident terror, terrible and violent events that is going on almost daily [if not weekly] around the world committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.

The basic strategy of the Quran [Islam] to dominate and gain control is to emphasize the "us=good versus them=evil" primal dichotomy to infuse hate and contempt for the 'them' i.e. the non-Muslims. There are more than 3,200 out of 6,236 verses in the Quran is geared to promote the "us versus them" primal instinct.
This is a solid background to instigate genocides on non-believers and this has happened.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8 ... ocide.html
Note this pre-conditions leading to genocides which exists within the Quran.
The evidence is so clear-cut, the genocides of the Yazidis, the Armenians, the Hindus in India which were driven in essence by the verses of the Quran.

Just as humanity will put in a lot of attention, wariness, and caution on a book like the Main Kempf and other dangerous ideologies, the same attention should be given to the inherent evils in the Quran.

What is so perverted is those [around the world] who bring to attention and critique the evils of Islam are persecuted and condemned.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:12 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Although I've never read the Koran, it'm sure you're right, that it's an inherently imperialistic religion, comparable to the ideology of Nazism, thou I'm not sure it outright condones terrorism.
Still western imperialism and terrorism isn't helping.
I have absolutely no desire to have a secular crusade against Islam, I would just forbid or restrict immigration from Muslim countries, give Muslims multiple psychological evaluations before they're permitted access, I certainly wouldn't just open the floodgates and let thousands-millions of refugees come pouring in, especially from places rife with radicals and terrorists like Saudi Arabia, Islams birthplace.

It would better it you read the Quran to confirm your thesis [abstracted from obvious empirical evidences]. One problem is the Quran is very difficult to read [messy and badly organized]. One has to put in a lot of work and time to grasp and understand the purpose[s] of the Quran.

Once one has a good grasp and understood the Quran thoroughly, one will note the Quran do condones terrorism from its various verses to terrorize non-believers and Muslim hypocrites.

    3:151. We [Allah] shall cast terror [R3B: l-ruʿ'ba] into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [ShRK: ashrakū idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers [l-ẓālimīna] [infidels].

    8:57. If thou comest [tathqafannahum; dominate] on them [infidels] in the war, deal with them [infidels] so as to strike fear [ShRD: fasharrid; scamper] [terror] in those [infidels] who are behind them [infidels], that haply they [infidels] may remember. [yadhakkarūna]

    9:123. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Fight [qatilu; wage war] those of the disbelievers [infidels] who are near to you [neighborhood], and let them [the infidels] find harshness [GhLZ: ghil'ẓatan: severity] in you [Muslims], and know that Allah is with those [Muslims] who keep their duty (unto Him).

    9:126. See they [infidels] not [Do the infidels ever realized] that they [infidels] are tested once or twice in every year? Still they [infidels] turn not in repentance, neither pay [do] they [infidels] [take] heed.

There are many verses in the Quran along the same vein as the above in condoning terror.

In one famous authoritative Guide for Muslims [Reliance of the Traveler], they are reminded to strike terrors on non-believers at least twice a year [9:126] to keep non-Muslims on their toes as a mode to show Islam's dominance. This instructions is taken seriously and that is why the evident terror, terrible and violent events that is going on almost daily [if not weekly] around the world committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.

The basic strategy of the Quran [Islam] to dominate and gain control is to emphasize the "us=good versus them=evil" primal dichotomy to infuse hate and contempt for the 'them' i.e. the non-Muslims. There are more than 3,200 out of 6,236 verses in the Quran is geared to promote the "us versus them" primal instinct.
This is a solid background to instigate genocides on non-believers and this has happened.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8 ... ocide.html
Note this pre-conditions leading to genocides which exists within the Quran.
The evidence is so clear-cut, the genocides of the Yazidis, the Armenians, the Hindus in India which were driven in essence by the verses of the Quran.

Just as humanity will put in a lot of attention, wariness, and caution on a book like the Main Kempf and other dangerous ideologies, the same attention should be given to the inherent evils in the Quran.

What is so perverted is those [around the world] who bring to attention and critique the evils of Islam are persecuted and condemned.

I agree with everything you said, and usually I can find reasons to disagree with people.

Yea I've never read the Koran, but from all the citations I've seen, and knowing Islam's early history, how Muhammad and his followers were bloodthirsty conquerors, and not at all like the Christ or the Buddha, it's clear to me the book is a blueprint for imperialism and totaliterrorism.

I have been meaning to read it for myself thou.

On that note, what do you think of the bible?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:32 am

Gloominary wrote:I agree with everything you said, and usually I can find reasons to disagree with people.

Yea I've never read the Koran, but from all the citations I've seen, and knowing Islam's early history, how Muhammad and his followers were bloodthirsty conquerors, and not at all like the Christ or the Buddha, it's clear to me the book is a blueprint for imperialism and totaliterrorism.

I have been meaning to read it for myself thou.

On that note, what do you think of the bible?
I would recommend all people to read the Quran so they are not ignorant of the ultimate cause of all Islamic-based terrors, evils and violence. It is not easy to read the Quran because literary wise it is so disorganized and messy. But one must make some attempt to understand the good and evil elements in the Quran somehow.
I am onto a project to re-arrange all the 6,236 verses of the Quran in an organized and systematic theme that will be easy to read and understand.

The Bible is off topic in this thread, but on a side note;
The Bible [especially the OT] has more evil and violent elements than the Quran. But these evil elements are not directed in a way that will inspire Christians to commit terrible evils and violence. This point is supported by the current evidence.
In addition the OT is superceded by the overriding pacifist maxim of love your enemies with no ifs nor buts. There is also the golden rule, love your neighbors etc.
If a Christian were to kill her/his enemies, s/he is likely to be reprimanded by God on Judgment Day for disobedience. Christians may have killed non-believers but there is no way they can use or do it in Jesus' name at all.

On the other hand, a Muslim will be heavily rewarded if s/he strive in the cause of Allah in fighting and killing non-believers under conditions of zalim [ZLM] and fasad [FSD] by the infidels. In fact they will be rewarded more if they are killed in fighting.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:58 am

Breaking News!
Six killed in central London attack
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-40147014

This is the glaring evidence and proof to support the OP, "Why is Islam [in part] So Evil."

There will be more to come as long as Islam with its malignant part of evil elements exist. The average humans especially the regressive left and Muslims apologists must wake up to understand the root cause of all these terrorist acts is from Islam [partly] itself.

I accuse those who strive to shut critiques of Islam and Muslim apologists as complicit to the terrors and evils committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone and inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby omar » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:34 pm

Hello Prismatic

Just to make it clear.
I am against all types of evil, be it secular, religious or others.
Thus I will condemn evils committed by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc.


Ok. What I am adding then is that maybe, just maybe, you should look into a common set of circumstances in all of these types of "evil" (and I place quotations marks because evil is mostly a perspective based assessment. If we could agree that it is the infliction of pain upon another sentient being for no reasonable purpose, we are still left with the perspective of what is reasonable. It is not a universal value and neither is evil and so " "). You have in history periods when the roles were reversed and Islam was the tolerant society and Christianity was the intolerant society and thus, I argue, there must be something else in the causal chain besides books.

But the main point here is this thread and OP is about Islam not other religions. This is why I am focusing on Islam and the root causes of Islamic-based evil.


I know that you want to narrow this to this one religion, but I am just suggesting that by doing so you're missing something that might be very important.

As a side point, I believe Islamic based evils and tracing its root causes deserved greater attention in the present due to the greater statistics of evils committed by Islamists [over the last 20 years] making obvious references to Islam via Allahu Akbar and quoting Quranic verses.


The evils committed by a few, out of 1.7 billion. If the root cause is a book and the religion associated with it then we would have a much worse problem with terrorism, especially in America. I cannot trace evil to Islam because there are many instances, like NYC, where Muslims just go about their own business, and so I presume the causal chain must include other factors that you are willfully ignoring in order to neatly, and without further due, lay the blame for evil on a religion. I can cite the Inquisition as a religious terror, but this is no longer the character of the Catholic Church. Can you explain why is that? The Bible in itself contains "difficult" passages. You have argued that these are not relevant to Christians and the NT and its message of "Love". Very well, then there is the conquest of Cannan, detailed in the Torah, (still used by Zionist in justification of their most aggressive actions), however something happened and now we do not see Jews stabbing people on the street, or killing an entire town, including the cattle. So what has happened? The books remain unchanged but how people interpret them has.

There are two main root causes of Islamic based terror, i.e.

1. The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million potential]
2. Evil laden verses in the Quran & Ahadith.


By that logic, 20% of evil prone Jews (3 million potential), and evil verses exist, so where is the corresponding Judaic terror? For every ten attacks we should have at least 1 attack attributable to the jews. Is this the case, and if not, why is that?

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.

How do you explain Christian minorities in Muslim countries, such as Egypt?

The obvious solution [theoretically] is to get rid of those evil laden verses in the Quran or if need be the Quran itself. Then logically there will be no more Islamic-based evils and violence.
All other evils must be addressed and dealt with accordingly without exceptions.

For one you say that such eradication is unfeasable. Further, if Islamic extremism is related to an innate tendency, then what do you suppose with those in your 20%? They probably will only use another excuse (race, class) to release their personality. But, in such a world, without Islam, such violence could not be labelled "Islamic" and so, you say, would be dealt accordingly. Fair enough. But couldn't we do that already? Meaning, couldn't we apply Law without looking to judge billions for the actions of a few hundreds? You have tried to narrow this conversation down to just the Muslim religion. Couldn't the conversation draw down even further to discuss the individuals who perpetrated these attacks? But if you won't, then explain how you justify scaling up the discussion to include the Muslim religion itself and not expanding further to include it monotheistic siblings which have been as guilty of religious terror?
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Re: Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:12 am

omar wrote:Hello Prismatic
Just to make it clear.
I am against all types of evil, be it secular, religious or others.
Thus I will condemn evils committed by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

Ok. What I am adding then is that maybe, just maybe, you should look into a common set of circumstances in all of these types of "evil" (and I place quotations marks because evil is mostly a perspective based assessment. If we could agree that it is the infliction of pain upon another sentient being for no reasonable purpose, we are still left with the perspective of what is reasonable. It is not a universal value and neither is evil and so " "). You have in history periods when the roles were reversed and Islam was the tolerant society and Christianity was the intolerant society and thus, I argue, there must be something else in the causal chain besides books.
When solving any problem [one of my problem-solving techniques] there is a question of efficiency.
One of the efficient process is to break down the problem to its smallest manageable units and dealing with them without sacrificing the big picture. What is needed thereafter is to find as many groupings, types, categories, by root causes, etc. for the various evil.
There are many techniques to do this. Are you familiar with the fishbone technique?
Therefore it is inefficient to start with lumping all evils into one big category.

Image

The problem statement is defined on the head of the fish while the fish bones represent the various types, class, etc. of the causes.

Now if we are to analyze the evils of humanity from 100,000 years to the present, one will note there is a significant kind of evils that is linked to religions, then to the different type of religion and at present so-called Muslims.
Whatever the groupings we must trace all of them to their ultimate root causes.

I have done very extensive research and noted there in the present there is a big group of evils that is linked to Muslims, 20% of evil prone Muslims and the loads of evil laden elements in the Quran [as well as the Ahadith].

"Evil' is the opposite of 'good' and it possible to give the range of 'evils' some standardize value. Surely there is big difference between the evil of genocide and the evil of a petty crime. So it is not difficult to agree of a hierarchy of evil from mild to the worst.

But the main point here is this thread and OP is about Islam not other religions. This is why I am focusing on Islam and the root causes of Islamic-based evil.

I know that you want to narrow this to this one religion, but I am just suggesting that by doing so you're missing something that might be very important.
Nope, as I had stated I will do a reasonable analysis for all the types of evils and trace them to their ultimate root causes. I will not be missing any element.

As a side point, I believe Islamic based evils and tracing its root causes deserved greater attention in the present due to the greater statistics of evils committed by Islamists [over the last 20 years] making obvious references to Islam via Allahu Akbar and quoting Quranic verses.


The evils committed by a few, out of 1.7 billion.
If the root cause is a book and the religion associated with it then we would have a much worse problem with terrorism, especially in America. I cannot trace evil to Islam because there are many instances, like NYC, where Muslims just go about their own business, and so I presume the causal chain must include other factors that you are willfully ignoring in order to neatly, and without further due, lay the blame for evil on a religion.
I can cite the Inquisition as a religious terror, but this is no longer the character of the Catholic Church. Can you explain why is that? The Bible in itself contains "difficult" passages. You have argued that these are not relevant to Christians and the NT and its message of "Love".
Very well, then there is the conquest of Cannan, detailed in the Torah, (still used by Zionist in justification of their most aggressive actions), however something happened and now we do not see Jews stabbing people on the street, or killing an entire town, including the cattle. So what has happened? The books remain unchanged but how people interpret them has.
As far as the Gospel is concern, there is no big issue as there is an overriding pacifist maxim as a ceiling to ensure Christians do not fight and kill their enemies and they are exhort to love their enemies, neighbor and generally 'drown' in love of others.

As I had stated there are more evil and violent elements in the Torah than the Quran. What is critical is whether the evil prone Jews as inspired by the evil elements in the Torah are committing as much violence as the evil prone Muslims by the Quran. The answer is very obvious in terms of numbers of evil acts. Note there are 6++ millions compared to 1.5 billion Muslims [20% evil prone] being exposed to evil elements in the Quran. So our attention must obviously directed to evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims.

I am not being bias but this OP is on evil prone Muslims. As I had stated we must address all evils from whatever the sources. In the future humanity it will be more efficient to wean off all religions [replace with foolproof approaches] and retain the good elements from their spirituality.

There are two main root causes of Islamic based terror, i.e.

1. The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million potential]
2. Evil laden verses in the Quran & Ahadith.


By that logic, 20% of evil prone Jews (3 million potential), and evil verses exist, so where is the corresponding Judaic terror? For every ten attacks we should have at least 1 attack attributable to the Jews. Is this the case, and if not, why is that?
Point is we always start from reality, i.e. real empirical evidence of real evils and violence.

Judaism fit into the above model since it has all the elements but the empirical evidences do not support they are committing glaring terrible evils and violence at present. So there is no need to put that much of attention to Judaism and the Jews but that does not mean we should ignore them totally. It is just a matter of priority. If the strategies are to get rid of religions, the first will be Islam, then Judaism followed by Christianity in term of their potential to promote evils and violence.

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.

How do you explain Christian minorities in Muslim countries, such as Egypt?
Note the increase of Muslims from day one since Muhammad started preaching. He converted about 100+ in the first 13 years of Muhammad preaching in Mecca but the number of Muslims jumped to 100,000++ within the next 10 years after he went to Medina which is surrounded by stories of wars and atrocities. Thereafter Islam continued to spread along with its imperialism. There is no denial there is an element of conversion by the sword directly and indirectly.

There is no compulsion statement in the Quran but the story is restricted to Muhammad [in his early days] advising his newly converted followers not to force their children and kins to convert immediately. This is not a generic decree.

The obvious solution [theoretically] is to get rid of those evil laden verses in the Quran or if need be the Quran itself. Then logically there will be no more Islamic-based evils and violence.
All other evils must be addressed and dealt with accordingly without exceptions.

For one you say that such eradication is unfeasible.
Further, if Islamic extremism is related to an innate tendency, then what do you suppose with those in your 20%? They probably will only use another excuse (race, class) to release their personality. But, in such a world, without Islam, such violence could not be labelled "Islamic" and so, you say, would be dealt accordingly. Fair enough. But couldn't we do that already? Meaning, couldn't we apply Law without looking to judge billions for the actions of a few hundreds?
You have tried to narrow this conversation down to just the Muslim religion.
Couldn't the conversation draw down even further to discuss the individuals who perpetrated these attacks?
But if you won't, then explain how you justify scaling up the discussion to include the Muslim religion itself and not expanding further to include it monotheistic siblings which have been as guilty of religious terror?
As I had explained all evils must be addressed and resolved [reduced] in time. However we are dealing with religions in this forum and Islam in this OP.
I believed all religions has potentials in contributing to evils as committed by their believers.
The source of evil is mostly by the evil laden elements in the holy texts and also as an organized religion. Note there are no leading evil elements in the holy texts of Buddhism, but the evil prone Buddhists do commit evils and violence. There are also many scandals [corruption, rapes, crimes, etc.] within Buddhist temples. If humanity can survive without religions at all, there will be no more religious-based evils by humans.

The evils and violence from religions that is inspired by evil elements in religious texts is the most dangerous kind of evils as a threat to humanity.
The reason is religious [theistic] people are driven by a very potent existential crisis where people are willing to do anything to ensure their salvation [belief] is secured. Note Abraham was willing to kill his son for his own personal salvation. Some will even go to the extent of killing themselves for God to safeguard their salvation.
Why Islam is extra dangerous is because the Quran is claimed to be immutable, perfect, complete and final, thus cannot be changed at all.
Therefore the evils and violent elements in the Quran that are likely to inspire the 20% of evil prone Muslim will remain eternal. Thus it will be a real evil and killing machine.

On the other hand whatever that trigger evil and violence in a non-religious setting is not subject to immutability and their beliefs and attitude can change to the good and better. Note Nazism, fascism, communism and other ideologies are subject to change, elimination as proven in reality.
But Islam is the only ideology that cannot be changed as commanded by Allah in the Quran.

The other element that is difficult to change [not immutable nor impossible] is the DNA elements variation of evil that infect the 20% which is common to a % of all humans.
This is why I do not assign the primary blame to Muslims as human beings for the evil and violence they committed. They are merely the 20% of humans who were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. The critical blame is on the ideology of Islam which contain evil and violent elements that trigger & compel these unfortunate % of Muslim to commit evils and violence in the name of Allah and Islam.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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