Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Are you reading Jacob’s OP … “The Tree of Life Exploded”

My last post in this OP … a few minutes ago … may help you understand my stubbornness … if you are interested. :slight_smile:

I can understand and accept why you are stubborn.
Generally stubborn_ness and resistance to change is due to insecurity and low self esteem.

But it also an effect and consequences from those who are older.
As one grows older, the effectiveness of most of one’s faculty began to wane Naturally due to the greater atrophy of brain cells.
With lesser controls, the ego and mind will close in to protect its integrity with defensiveness, stubbon_ness and all sorts of resistance. This is a very natural thing, so I can understand your position.

Note this interesting research,

Even the once most notable militant atheist, Anthony Flew, succumb to the above in his later years and became a deist. This happen to many [not all] atheists.

Best wishes to you on whatever you do.

[b]

[/b]

For millennia … in most cultures … young people would seek advice from their elders … the experience(s) of elders was considered superior to the knowledge and vigour of the younger inexperienced members of society.

Times they are a changin! :laughing:

True story:

I had initially intended to include my reaction to the OP in my own “on discussing god and religion” thread. I only accidently left it in this thread. My apologies.

Well, here’s one take on that: npr.org/2015/12/20/460480698 … e-same-god

Like most things of this sort it all gets rather complex and convoluted over time.

Basically [in my view] all you do here is to accumulate your own particular collection of religious prejudices and argue that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to agree.

Or to, among others things, take a leap of faith to.

Much the same way in which those of the Moslem faith do regarding the Bible and the Torah.

SOME Moslems anyway.

Again, my apologies for intruding on your thread. It was not originally my intention.

I’m from the Marvin Harris school of anthropology. The materialists. In other words, in order to understand elements of the “superstructure” in any particular human community, you need first to explore the manner in which it is intertwined [historically] in economic interactions. That’s the part that revolves around power. Political power. And that’s the part where one or another religious narrative tends to prevail in one or another nation in one or another historical and cultural context…

You are very wrong on this.
The fact is all Christians and Muslims has to rely ultimately on faith, there is no other option for them.
Prove to me I am rely on faith [like Christians and Muslims] rather than empirical justified evidences and reasoned arguments.

The most common news at present is the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME believers who are Muslims. [I insist they are Muslims if you want to debate on this].
Therefore to run away or be an ostrich to this glaring going on is being a very irresponsible human for humanity sake.

I am not into bigotry but my views are opened to debates and discussions. Obviously it is only natural that one should first defend one’s own hypothesis with the possibility that one hypothesis is wrong if there are justified evidence.
So far I have not try to stop nor resort to violent intellectual means to stop any one from criticizing my views.

There is no bigotry from me, any one is welcome to argue my views.
But there is one good primal reason why you came in [subliminally driven] with a stab and accusation of bigotry on me. You wanna know and discuss why?? objectively, not blatant accusations. You are into ‘Know Thyself.’ ??

That is very logical, time wise the elders will have more experiences than the younger groups. But that cannot be a rule because there are so many contexts to take into account over time and circumstances.

It is more true in the olden days in tribal villages and towns without good communications media and internet. Those days, knowledge were embedded in the brain of the elders but in the modern times, experiences of the elders are recorded in all sort of media available in Amazon [e.g.] Wikipedia, Youtube, Facebook. People are too eager to share whatever new knowledge they have as soon as possible.

I don’t see anything worthwhile from what you wrote so far, else I would not mind paying to learn from you.

Yes, there will always be some gap between the elders and the younger [along the same subject] but it is very narrow in the present.
Yes, “Times they are a changin!” :laughing:

Peace to you on your pilgrimage of life.

Wisdom can’t be taught … nor learned in a book … nor on Facebook Twitter et al.

Wisdom is something people … and not all people … internalize by tripping over the potholes they encounter as they journey through life.

I agree that at the moment you can’t ‘see’ … I encourage you to be patient.

A sample of Chief Seattle’s wisdom … 1855

His statement is not prophetic … simply a well articulated extrapolation of what he ‘saw’ in his lifetime.

[b]

[/b]

You are changing the subject from knowledge via experience to wisdom.
Wisdom like intelligence cannot be passed on nor taught directly but knowledge about how to develop wisdom can be taught. That was not the topic.

We were discussing knowledge via experiences that is inter-communicable and exchangeable.
Experiences and knowledge of the elders that can be communicated can inspire thus enhancing the wisdom of others through their own practices.

Peace to you.

I think that you are giving Islam too much credit. Religious cruelty begins way before in recorded history in the Old Testament. Are the jews, then, prone to evil? The Spanish Empire wiped out the native empires in central and south America. They also thought of other human beings as cattle, with the blessing I might add of the religious crown in Madrid. It gets better, around this time human beings are tortured and burned for heresy and anything that may contradict scripture-- not in the Koran, but in the Bible. Shouldn’t we conclude that the Spanish, the Italians and the English are all evil prone and that the Bible if at least, if not more, dangerous than the Koran?

But no worries. Communism had no Koran, no Bible, only the writings of men like Marx and Engels. “Genocide” never lost its utility. The lesson here is that the violence found in islamicists is not caused by the Koran, otherwise NYC would be a crater. American Muslims are all well versed in the Koran, so why hasn’t this caused more violencein cities like New York?
We have examples of violence in the name of some god as well as in the name of the State, the People. The cause of violence is not reducible to a book or a gene located around brown people. Rather violence is caused by a grand perspective, ideals, from which height human life loses its priviledge and high standing as a value in itself. In the name of a revealed God, or a clear Future, genocide becomes a moral immorality, a necessary evil for the greater good etc.

  1. DNA wise ALL [100%] humans has the potential to be evil [as defined] and violent.

  2. A certain percentile [best guess 20%] are unfortunately born with an activated evil tendency [of various degree] and has difficulty controlling these evil impulse.

  3. The above is the fundamental reason why there is so much evils [all types] and violence in the world since human first emerged with self-awareness.

  4. All [no exceptions] the above evils and violence must be addressed.

  5. To address all the evils and violence in the World effective, we must analyze them into manageable units and trace to their respective root causes. [ a feature of a good problem-solving techniques].

  6. From empirical evidences it is noted all the evils and violence in the the world can be classified into two main categories, i.e. secular and religious.

  7. So whatever secular evils [wars, communism, drugs, crimes, etc.] you highlighted above must be addressed and resolved.

  8. There is no denial there were terrible evil committed by people who identify themselves as religious. The Buddhist monk [by his dressing, etc.] who was anti-Muslim is obviously religious. There are many Jews, Christians, Muslims who commit evils and violence while identifying themselves as believers as a religion.

  9. From the above obvious relationship, i.e. believers and evil & violence, thus humanity has an onus to research whether there is a direct link between the religious texts inspiring their believers to commit evil and violence.

  10. I have done the relevant extensive research and noted the Quran has tons of evil laden elements that inspire SOME Muslims who were born with evil tendency [2 above] to commit terrible evils and violence in the belief it is their divine duty so that they can be assured of their place in Paradise.

  11. The Torah is full of evil and violent contents but these are not in a format that would inspire so many believers to commit evil like Islam. This is why we do not hear of Jews committing terrible evils like the Muslims. Christianity has some evil elements but it has an overriding pacifist maxim, ‘love your enemies’.

  12. I suggest you do an objective analysis of the 6,236 verses of the Quran in term of its various elements and note its evil elements of various degrees. The most obvious clue is the Quran [Ahadith is worst] has 3,200++ verses [55% :open_mouth: ] that reference non-believers as ‘them’ [us versus them] in a very negative and in contempt. Such dividing people into in-groups and out-group is the fundamental basis leading to genocide. There are tons of other evil laden elements in the Quran.
    Why is a religion [like Islam] SO busybody with the affairs of non-believers to that high a degree!!!
    In contrast Buddhist sutras hardly mentioned non-believer but focus mainly on the spiritual development of the individual or society.

  13. Why not all Muslims in NYC are committing evil?
    As I had mentioned appx. 20% are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Note if you read the various polls you will note a high percentage of Muslims support the various negative elements of Islam, e.g. killing of apostate, stoning people to death, etc.
    Whilst 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 million has an active evil tendency [of various degrees] not all will commit evil acts.
    But the point is even if 1% commit evils as inspired by the Quran’s evil element, that is 15 million of them around the World. That is really scary considering it took only 18++ to do a 911 and lone wolf[s] as evident can create terrible evils, terror and violence.

  14. The above is theory but in reality it is well supported by glaring evidences of Muslims committing terrible evils [over the last 1,400 years to the present] as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran. The more terrible evils has related political elements but the main driving force is the evil elements from the Quran.

  15. I have identified the fundamental root cause of one type [amongst others] of terrible evil and violence, i.e. Quran-based evils and violence. The obvious solution [theoretical] is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran and Muslims will not be triggered by any Quranic elements to commit terrible evils. If Muslims commit evils, then it has nothing to do with Islam rather it is their own personal evil tendency.

  16. Thus Muslims themselves must understand the Quran factually and objective to admit the Quran itself with its tons of evil laden elements is a big part of the problem of evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims. Btw, we cannot blame the Muslims as who were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency as the main culprit. It is the ideology with its evil elements that is the main problem.

Omar, can you counter this;

Qualification:
Do not blame Muslims per-se for any terror, evils and violence. The are not the primary cause. Rather the root cause is the Islamic ideology as reflected in the Quran and Ahadith.

This information [The Mirror extracted from ISIS’s magazine] is critical because the reasons are primarily theological and religious differences justified from the Quran and not political [which is secondary]:
mirror.co.uk/news/world-news … ns-8533563

1. Because you are disbelievers
“We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices.”

2 . Because you are liberal
“We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you Christian disbelief and paganism 32 separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.”

3. Because some of you are atheist
“In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator.”

4. For your crimes against Islam
“We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion.”

5. For your crimes against Muslims
“We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth.”

6. For invading our lands
“We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim.”

The article concludes that while foreign policy is an issue, the main reason they are hell bent on destruction is because they don’t like the West very much.

It reads:
"What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam.”

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.

Most Muslims will insist the followers of ISIS and other extremists interpreted the Quran wrongly. This is misconception. The followers [as Muslims] of ISIS are terrified of Allah [all powerful] and Hell, and there is no way they will twist the words of Allah for any personal benefit.

The majority of the points above are literally represented in the Quran while some may be dualistic, i.e. ambiguous and either way is true. Note the Duck-Rabbit dualistic truth example.

Another critical point is no one on Earth can judge which Muslim is interpreting the text correctly, especially the marginal ones till they meet up with Allah on Judgment Day.
Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist there will always be evil and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and zealously doing what is necessary as their divine duty to please Allah.

Hello Prismatic

Well, first of all why should we take the ISIS, or other terrorist groups interpretations of the Koran as authoritative? I believe these are rationalizations for a need for violent means to achieve political ends, no different than when Moses interpreted God for his people in order to justify genocide. The human filter (editor) is always in effect, so “revelation”, and interpretations of those revelations, always say more about the interpreter than about the source document.
I do not blame muslims. I believe you did. I also don’t blame books. I can receive today a letter from my Church’s pastor saying: “God has instructed us to kill innocent women and children and wipe them out of His Holy Lands”-- doesn’t mean I would believe him about his own interpretation about with whom he was having a conversation. But of course, I am a middle class American. How would that run by me between the rubble of Iraq? The point is that the interpretation is determined by the life-circumstance of the interpreter.

According to ISIS. Saying that the political reasons are secondary is not surprising. They are talking about Jihad which is a religious call, not a political one, and so they have no choice but to downplay the primary role of the political factors, even by self delusion.

I only have your word on your familiarity with the Koran. While the Koran, in my reading, is derivative from the other two monotheistic religions that influenced Mohammed, therefore, reflecting all the vices of the other two, there are also passages that have led to tolerance. Ayah 256 is one example. In the 14th century, in a period of strength, Ibn Kathir gave this interpretation:
“(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, ‘Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.’
It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning.“
History has shown us this interpretation in practice in cities like Granada around that same time. I am not saying that there are no troubling passages in the Koran, just as there are in the Torah and in the rest of the Bible, but there has to be a will present, a desire that allows for the most barbaric interpretation of said passages while ignoring all else, including the very nature of that the purport of worship.

You think it is a misconception, let’s be clear. Between you and the others there is no priviledge to Truth, no monopoly. Being terrified means nothing as far as granting an interpretation veracity. It explains an interpretation, but does not make that interpretation THE interpretation. An interpretation out of fear is taken in order to assuage that fear, thus, for their personal benefit.

True. They don’t have a Pope.

I disagree with your interpretation. Pleasing Allah does not equate to evil and violence. Mohammed did not convert all of his allies. Certain Bedouins were simply taxed differently after they acknowledged the primacy of Islam. This is also what we find in Granada, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together even if treated as different by the government. If such moment was repeated, (and I hope not), would evil and violence remain the topics we discuss or simply the unfairness of their tax code?

Peace Omar,

I had presumed you were likely a Muslim due to your nick, ‘Omar.’ From the above, I suppose you are a Christian.

The context is the Muslims concerned are reading directly from the Quran not receiving a letter from their imam.
We can also confirm the various evil laden verses from the Quran by reading it ourselves.

I already qualify I don’t why do you insist I blame the Muslims. Obviously those who had committed a crime in the eyes of the Law of the Land must be accountable for it, but the primarily blame [for preventive basis] should not be on the one who commit the crime in this case. My point is the ultimate root cause in this case is the evil verses from the Quran.

As I had stated the statements by the followers of ISIS are supported by verses in the Quran. At this point it is too tedious for me to compile all the relevant verses into here.
But here is one telling verse of how SOME Muslims are inspired to fight and kill non-Muslims who condemned with the most derogatory term all over the Quran.

22:39. Sanction [udhina: permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged* [ẓulimū; ZLM; by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory [naṣrihim];

The Arabic language is based on a root system where the major words are of trilateral roots. The critical word here is ‘zulimu’ a derivative from the root ZLM. What is zulimu [wronged] cover all sorts of negatives by the non-Muslims which include being a disbeliever [Kafir -KFR] and worst of all praying to idols, i.e. Shirk [ShRK].

Other than direct commands by Allah that condone the attacks on non-Muslims, Muslims will counter they are allow to attack on the basis of self-defense or defending their religion and fellow Muslims if they are wronged [zulimu] [ZLM] in in cases of Zulm or zalim [wrongdoings].

Now the point is anything negative [regardless of degrees] to Islam and Muslims is construed as zulimu or zalim. Note the case of drawing of cartoons and anything that any Muslim feel offended is regarded as zulimu thus warrant a counter attack on non-Muslims per 22:39 and other verses.

These Muslims are complying with edict of Allah, so who on Earth can insist they are wrong? To them these evil Muslims believe they are doing the right/good [ihsan] thing as a divine duty to please Allah and only Allah can judge them on Judgment Day.

Fair enough.
Since I was last active here, I had spent almost 2+ years researching and analyzing the Quran full-time [note] and in addition learning basic [not advanced] Arabic and Quranic Grammar. I have read the whole Quran at one go, more than 60 times and have read extensive commentaries [tafsir] plus done extensive research and analysis of the major root words. Everytime I encountered an issue I refer to 50+ English translation of the Quran with Arabic transliteration and in Arabic [up to my level].
The only proof is for me to quote the relevant verses as the situation permit.

In view of the seriousness of Islamic-based evil around the World I have taken the unpleasant task of mastering the essence of the Quran.
Until proven, I don’t see you have any depth in your knowledge of the Quran.

As for this 2:256 no compulsion verse, as a convenience note this counter.
patheos.com/blogs/daylightat … -in-islam/

Regardless of the above, there was obvious compulsion by the sword throughout the 1,400 history directly or indirectly.

The issue of ‘compulsion’ has no relevance to Muslims being sanctioned by Allah to fight and kill non-Muslims re Zulimu 2:39 or due to it synonym, corruption [fasad -FSD].

That is my point.
Note many verses are dualistic [see a duck or rabbit?, either is true] which can represent two truth where either can be true.
In the case of 22:39, if a Muslim decide to fight and kill in the believe the non-Muslims has committed zulimu [ZLM] or fasad [FSD] who are you, me or anyone to insist they are wrong?
They will continue to fight and kill non-Muslims till judgment day.

Note not all Muslims are evil and violent prone.
But as I had demonstrated there are a natural percentile [conservatively say 20%] of Muslims like all humans who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency thus prone to commit evil and violence when triggered by element laden elements such as those [some] in the Quran.

These evil prone Muslims in their zeal will be inclined towards verses with elements that fit their propensities. This is a very natural thing. In their mind they are not committing evil but rather they are following the command of Allah in the Quran as a divine duty and doing good [ihsan] acts.

The problem and mistake is the Quran which include evil and violent prone elements in its verses. Religions like Buddhism and Jainism who understood the vulnerabilities of human nature are wiser in ensuring there are no* verses with evil elements in their holy texts so that it is foolproof and no evil believers can abuse the religion. * if any [rare] are well qualified to prevent abuse.

Christianity is also wiser is establishing an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love your enemies unconditionally. Thus if one kill rather than love one’s enemies, God will eventually condemned him/her for disobedience, unless that is a good reason for doing so.

Islam on the other hand is open ended to evils and violence based on certain conditions or direct command.

There are many positives associated with Muslims and this is because these Muslims are good human beings who are more inclined to higher human values and they ignored the negative evil ethos of the Quran. So it is the Muslims who are good as human beings and not because Islam is good as a religion.

The Quran exhort Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend [awliyaa] with non-Muslims.

3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends biṭānatan بِطَانَةً ب ط ن ] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper [ʿanittum عَنِتُّمْ ع ن ت ] you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations [AYW; ayah] if ye will understand.

Surely those who befriend non-Muslims are in contravention of the above verse and others of the likes and had disobeyed Allah which is a serious sin. In practice most Muslims will befriend non-Muslims as driven by normal human values and opposing Quranic values. On Judgment Day, I bet Allah will f… them on this non-compliance.

Hello Prismatic

A letter or a book is always written by a person. The point is that a human authority figure, be it a pastor, an iman, a rabbi, or Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi still remains subject to a personal judgment, my judgment, your judgment, their judgment. There are troublesome verses in the Bible, the Torah as well, which were acted upon resulting in the suffering of innocents–I have already made that point. Mohammed was influenced by both Christianity and Judaism, as he interpreted them and so the faults in the Koran are not always original. In fact the closely resemble the faults of the Torah and for similar reasons. Unlike Christianity, The bulk of the Torah was a political artifact, built to sanctify a political entity as the grand result of God’s hand in history. Thus it provided guidance on how to run a state, laws for the people, laws for how to treat slaves, wives, and the stranger. Worse than the Koran, the Torah pretty much describes genocide in the name of God. Those verses still exist. So why don’t we have jewish massacres? Because they are in a position of power.

Well, here is the problem with that qualification: as I already mentioned, the Bible contains troublesome passages, so why not ban that book? If you mention the evil terrorists commit, then I have a number of examples from history where Christians were more evil, to the point that the refuge for jews was found in Muslim lands, which would be hard to explain, if you were right and evil is caused, at least in part, by this Book that existed even then. The beheadings of today fall short of the Inquisition.
You also add to the causality of evil a natural propensity for aggression in a small percentage of the population. Well perhaps then that would mean that in the absence of a Koran something else would take its place for those that have that propensity. If that propensity is not tied to brown people but is a universal trait, even in that low percentage then that would actually explain the historical examples I have used, such as the Inquisition. However, if that is so, then the Holy Book of choice is accidental. If you are bound and determined to bash someone’s head then a steel bar is as useful as a proper hammer and you will have no qualms to pick whichever, but probably pick the closest one to you.

When Christians were burning heretics, do you think that they were doing because they liked it, or do you think that they felt that they had the sacred duty to do what they did? Who could stand in front of such men when they decided not to suffer a witch? Who could argue against slavery when it is clear in the Bible that God even has rules about slavery, thus slavery was a sacred institution?
The inconvenient fact is that in all of this is that over 90% of the victims of ISIS are in fact Muslims, and that overall the majority of the casualties in acts of terror have been Muslims. The Koran is one Book, but after the death of Mohammed Islam has been divided into two groups as you well know. ISIS is not about making others submit to Allah, but to Submit to itself, to ISIS alone. It is Muslim against Muslim, no one but God ever able to settle who is the proper successor to Mohammed. How was this seemingly eternal battle caused by verses in the Koran?

I know what you have seen. I read the book. But again, what I saw was a book similar in tone to the Bible. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is actually better. The “evil” in the Koran is the same “evil” Roman philosophers, and polytheists in general, found in the Bible. Monotheism is based on a principle that leads down a path of intolerance. That the Church today has been defanged and stripped of political power does not mean that tolerance is inherent in its Scripture. Government policies are more benign because, for the most part, representatives do not resort to the Torah for guidance.

My argument does not rest on my claim to expertise in all things Muslim. You say that the verses in the Koran are the cause (in combination with a natural dispotion in a minority of brown people) for evil acts. My counter is that evil, such as the Inquisition, was not based on Koranic verses, nor conducted by Sunni Muslims. In fact Muslims in those times offered refuge to those fleeing the Inquisition. Where were the evil acts against those Jews and Christians expected if your diagnosis was accurate? And how was such an evil as the Inquisition (not to mention the Holocaust) possible when we had taken that crucial ingredient (Koranic verses) in the causal chain of evil acts (and that is me leaving you the possible angle that the natural disposition is universal to humanity)?

Just as there have been compulsion in the 2000 year old history of Christianity, directly or indirectly.

Fair enough. If the tendency is universal, at a conservative 20%, then the Koran itself is accidental in all of this, as I explained above.

And the other 80% what does the Koran mean?

I think that you are ignoring much greater evils committed by Christianity in the name of God to strengthen your argument. The Inquisition made political use of verses like Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. 20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.”
Thousands have died because of this and other similar verses in the “Holy” Bible, yet I don’t hear you calling for the removal of the Bible because it can cause evil even though we see that in fact it has caused evil on a much grand scale than the Koran. You say that “Islam on the other hand is open ended to evils and violence based on certain conditions or direct command.” however Islam has also provided safe haven for Jews during persecution from Christians, which is hard to explain if your diagnistic is correct and the Koran is in fact a more dangerous factor in acts of evil.

I could say the same about Christians and their Bible.

But again, what does Deuteronomy say?

Just to make it clear.
I am against all types of evil, be it secular, religious or others.
Thus I will condemn evils committed by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

But the main point here is this thread and OP is about Islam not other religions. This is why I am focusing on Islam and the root causes of Islamic-based evil.

As a side point, I believe Islamic based evils and tracing its root causes deserved greater attention in the present due to the greater statistics of evils committed by Islamists [over the last 20 years] making obvious references to Islam via Allahu Akbar and quoting Quranic verses.

There are two main root causes of Islamic based terror, i.e.

  1. The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million potential]
  2. Evil laden verses in the Quran & Ahadith.

It is obvious out of this 20% some will kill, rape, rob, steal, lie, and commit all sorts of evil without any reference to the Quran. Say 50 million, 16.7% of the 300 million.
But is it undeniable some Muslims will kill, rape, lie, and commit other evils as influenced by the verses in the Quran in the believe they are carry such as a divine duty to please Allah in his striving [jihad] for Allah’s cause [Sabil]. Say another 30 million or 10% of 300 million.

These numbers are alarming.
Say if we can get rid of the Quran [not possible in practice] then humanity will avoid the evil committed by 30 million who are inspired by the Quranic verses.
As for the 50 million Muslims who commit non-religious based evils, we will have to deal with them in the secular ways.

The fact that over 90% of ISIS victims are Muslims is not an excuse not to focus on the Quran and Islam itself. ISIS is not the only source of evil Muslims. There are evil Muslims inspired by evil laden verses in the Quran from all over the world, killing and oppressing non-Muslims and other Muslims not their kind.

The Quran itself also provide avenues for Muslims to identify and label other Muslims as apostates and hypocrites [munafiq -NFQ] who should be condemned and can be fought and killed.

The ethos of evil are different in each book when infused with the psychopathy of the author[s]. And the ethos that in imputed into the Quran is really terrible and amplified to a greater worse when this is leverage of the fear of death and hope for eternal life. The extreme is there is no compromise with God’s mercy and if God command one to kill one’s child, one will volunteer or have to do it or else it will be hell.

Side point; A Christian will risk being fucked by God is s/he kill even his/enemies as this overriding pacifist statement is commanded in the NT. Unfortunately some Christian do kill but they will definitely be screwed by their God on Judgment Day for their disobedience.
On the other hand, the Quran is open ended and Allah will praise those who killed whoever is deemed to be the enemy who has committed zulimu [ZLM].

You got it wrong! I did not mentioned “Brown People” but rather it is whoever is a Muslim who can be white, yellow, black, brown, etc.
Note my argument on this above re the two root causes, i.e. the 20% of evil people and evil laden verses in the Quran [or wherever, Torah, Bible].

Christianity is off topic for this OP.

Nope the Quran is a factor which must be addressed.
Re this OP, the Quran [in part] is the main contributor to Islamic-based evils.

Most of the 80% do not read the Quran seriously to assess how to be a true Muslim.
To be a true a Muslim, one must follow all the commands by Allah 100% to one best ability as per the covenant entered into with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise. This will include not befriending non-Muslims, defending Muslim land and Islam where possible and fighting non-Muslims who has committed zulimu [ZLM].
Many of the 80% even they read the Quran or are preached by imans do not follow verbatim what is in the Quran because they are more inclined to human values than Quranic values.

Nope, the OT is basically abrogated by the NT where is the overriding pacifist maxim, ‘love your enemies’.

Generally, all evils wherever their sources must be addressed and dealt with.
This OP is focused on evils and violence from the evil laden verses in the Quran that inspired some evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

The obvious solution [theoretically] is to get rid of those evil laden verses in the Quran or if need be the Quran itself. Then logically there will be no more Islamic-based evils and violence.
All other evils must be addressed and dealt with accordingly without exceptions.

Prismatic the Evilslayer

But what is beneficial to the human species?
Islam forbids adultery, alcohol, pork, shellfish, as well as a whole slew of other things many people enjoy but can sometimes get us into trouble.
Is it beneficial to have such laws?
How can we measure such things?
And of course Islam is more than just politics and law, it has ethical and theological doctrines, and metaphysical implications.

Would society be happier and healthier if the majority of us were to adopt it, and impose it on minorities, or at least relegate them to second class citizenry?
Or is western civilization on the right track?
Perhaps only time will tell, but it’s because of western civilization, its science, society and technology that we have global warming, and the atom bomb, and mass obesity, and mass cancer, aids and so forth, the degeneration of the family, community, and on and on, plastic surgery, frankenfood…

Perhaps there are things we can learn even from Islam…maybe things aren’t so black/white after all.
I would say, let every civilization develop on its own terms…let’s not put all our eggs in one basket.
By intervening over there, for highly suspicious, arguably imperialistic reasons, we’re in many cases further radicalizing them, and fostering Islams more aggressive elements.
If they truly want secular democracy, let them take it, just as we took it, and cease intervening, especially directly, after all who’re we to judge?
Our civilization may be a tiny blip, it may go just as quickly as it came.

Terrorism is the only way many Islamic fundamentalists feel they can fight back against a civilization many times mightier, more militarily and technologically advanced and organized than themselves, and in many cases it is indeed they who’re fighting back, in defense of, not just their religion, but their civilization, their culture, their lives and livelihood, while we fight forward, offensively/imperialistically.
Yea there are passages of the Koran that could easily be interpreted as condoning this sort of thing, especially by psychopaths, sociopaths and those under their influence or sway, but western foreign policy is probably just as much or more to blame.

That being said, it could also be a racial or cultural thing, why Islam is so aggressive, even geographic.
Does a hot climate make one hotheaded?
Islam was born in the desert, and, while you’re probably more versed in it and its origins than I, so correct me if I’m wrong, among warlords and pastoral nomads, though Muhammad himself was a pretty savvy guy for his time, he was a merchant.
The original Arabs of the Arabian desert peninsula were by and large a highly mobilized, warrior society, even thou some oases could support limited sedentary agriculture and trade, and so the religion took on such characteristics and such characteristics tended to remain, even when it spread to more civilized parts of North Africa and the Mid East, such as Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia.

Noted your points in the above two posts which are over.

Here, I believed is a more thematic presentation.

  1. DNA wise all humans are born with an existential crisis, a dilemma that cannot be resolved at all, thus a cognitive dissonance and generating terrible psychological angst.
    see this post The fear of death is innate.
    viewtopic.php?p=2665000#p2665000

  2. The most effective solution to soothe the terrible psychological angst is religions of various types and other psychological security blankets.

  3. Over the eons of human existence to the present humans has been clinging to whatever is presented to them as a soteriological salvation in whatever the form of religions they found soothing to their soul. However there are many humans who used religions to exploit and control the masses.

  4. The existential crisis in all humans is permanent but the religions they adopt to soothe their soul can make a difference to humanity. For example, note Buddhism and Jainism which do not has any significant violent elements in its holy texts. In this case, there is no opportunity for any Buddhist who are evil prone to be inspired by Buddhism per-se to commit terrible evils and violence. Evil prone Buddhists, e.g. in Myanmar did commit violence but they were not inspired by Buddhism but rather were driven by their own personal evil psychology.

  5. On the other hand, the Quran of Islam contain loads of evil laden elements supposedly condoned by Allah. Because such evil elements are from Allah and inspire SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence in the name of Islam, then Islam has to take the blame. The solution is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran. Unfortunately the Quran claim itself to be immutable - cannot be changed - thus the evil elements are stuck in the religion of Islam which will permanently inspire SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone to commit evils and violence with sanction from Allah.

  6. How the evil elements got into the Quran is due to the partial evil ethos of the founder Muhammad or the groups of humans who compiled. This is how Hitler who had evil and psychopathic tendencies imbued those evil elements into his Main Kempf.
    Like the Main Kempf, the Quran definitely has good elements [as mentioned by you above] but the problem is it has loads of evil elements and the Quran is supposedly worst than Main Kempf in its view of the Jews plus terrible contempts and hatred for Christians and non-Muslims.
    This is why Iran and many Muslims want to wipe Israels off the face of the Earth as inspired by Allah’s hatred for the Jews as in the Quran.

  7. The above is the basis why Islam-in-part is SO evil. There is no doubts on this thesis as the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran are so evident at present and over the last 1,400 years of Islam’s history.

  8. Throughout human history the minority has always used terrorism and other techniques to strive for their rights [blacks, slaves, race, apartheid] without the need to resort to using religions [supposedly peaceful].

  9. To say that Islam is used by Muslims to fight the majority is not the critical point. The major mission of Islam is to dominate the world and suppress non-believers by whatever the means. That the Taliban tried to murder Malala on the basis of education has nothing to do with fighting the majority. Note Boko Haram is against progressive education. There are cultural genocides going on all over the world where Islam exists. Islam is against anything that is progressive except whatever is approved in the Quran. So Islamic terrorism main purpose is to terrorize the non-believers and not mainly to fight against bigger nations [which is an excuse].

  10. So why Islam emerged is grounded on the human DNA. The problem is Islam-in-part is very malignant and will be a threat [since they are indifferent to a M.A.D] to the survival of the human species in the future when WMDs are easily available.

Althou I’ve never read the Koran, it’m sure you’re right, that it’s an inherently imperialistic religion, comparable to the ideology of Nazism, thou I’m not sure it outright condones terrorism.
Still western imperialism and terrorism isn’t helping.
I have absolutely no desire to have a secular crusade against Islam, I would just forbid or restrict immigration from Muslim countries, give Muslims multiple psychological evaluations before they’re permitted access, I certainly wouldn’t just open the floodgates and let thousands-millions of refugees come pouring in, especially from places rife with radicals and terrorists like Saudi Arabia, Islams birthplace.