100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:34 pm

"If my words are not confirmed by personal experience ... ignore my words."


Personal experiences are not necessarily based in reality. You do realize this, don't you?

There are delusions/illusions, hallucinations.

We are so desperate to believe at times, that we manufacture truths within the brain which are not really truths.


Personally speaking, what might confirm your affirmation of your personal experience would be the way in which you chose to live your life in a positive way - not merely by stating your beliefs and trying to get others to believe what you believe.

People will either believe or disbelieve. Some will question without holding any kind of judgment - though the Fatima issue - unless YOU yourself have actually read both sides of the issue in an impartial way and examined them, well, ......I'll leave the rest to you.

Maybe the greater issue is in questioning why we believe such things.

Sometimes we call a miracle a miracle because we do not understand the science behind it.
Most of the people back then who saw what they saw thought it a miracle because they did not/could not know what caused it.
A rainbow does still appear to be miraculous even though we understand that there are causes behind it.

As for Mary appearing to the children, did you read the convoluted deceptive history of that by the church and others?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:34 pm

ditto
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:05 pm

Hi arc,

We can fool the brain into misguided beliefs? So you are saying that truth lies outside our brain? Then other than getting pranged by the good fairy, how does one obtain truth without a brain? :-k
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:01 pm

gib wrote:Oh, they were raped by the Vikings... everyone's been raped... except Canadians, but Trump hasn't been in power for that long. :-?

:lol: :lol:
=D>
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:46 pm

Hmmm!

As Friday October 13th creeps ever nearer ... this OP gets some new life ... ??? ... even a a laugh from JSS ... Hmmm!

There are no miracles ... so much for the "Miracle of the Sun" associated with the Fatima events. :)

Can't understand why anyone would be surprised by the "church's" response to the events. The institution of the church is "people" ... the hierarchy of the institution is "people".

Anything less than how the institution of the church responsded to the Fatima events would have been suicidal.

It's no different than the behavior of "the money cabals" ... for example ... the Wall Street gang is doing everything in it's power to preserve today's grossly inflated asset values .,. anything less would be suicidal. Their behavior is completely normal ... ergo ... conforms to natural human behavior.
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:39 pm

tentative wrote:Hi arc,

We can fool the brain into misguided beliefs? So you are saying that truth lies outside our brain? Then other than getting pranged by the good fairy, how does one obtain truth without a brain? :-k


Hi Tent,

If the above is with reference to what I wrote below...

We are so desperate to believe at times, that we manufacture truths within the brain which are not really truths.

What I might have said is that our brain plays tricks on us. But we can fool our mind or our mind can fool us into believing things which are not real. I suppose that the more valid way to express it would be the latter.
If it is we who are doing the fooling, wouldn't it necessarily be our minds in conjunction with our brains who are doing it.
People will lie to themselves all of the time.


Does truth lie outside our brain? That's a good question. I think that it would depend on how one is looking. I think that truth does lie outside of our brains.
That reminds me of the question: "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it still make a noise? Isn't that a question of perception?
I used to think that it would still make a noise but without ears to hear it, does it actually?

Scientists have discovered many truths which are facts - ergo, one can say that Truth does lie outside of our brains. Would you disagree with this, Tent?
If it were NOT for the truth of many things which can be seen and heard, could our brains perceive these things?

Then other than getting pranged by the good fairy, how does one obtain truth without a brain?


I do understand what you are saying here - that without the brain's function, we could not see or be aware of anything, so I can agree with you BUT at the same time, I can still question whether or not Truth is Still there, whether or not it still exists, even if I am not there to see it, to hear it, to smell it.
I suggest that it still IS but someone else may say differently.
Is it one's ego which cannot see it or see the possibility of it simply because they are not looking?
If this is a philosophical question, which I see it being, then I don't see it as having such a simple answer. Do you?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby tentative » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:32 pm

Arc,

I guess I should apologize for poking, but... We do not even know if the laws of physics are immutable in the center of a black hole. Or if multiverses are possible, what their "laws" of physics might be. Sure, we can speculate, but there may be more than one Truth. In fact, there may be all sorts of Truths. So what is out there? Damned if I know. And that is probably the only fact i can accept as Truth.

I see Truth as established tested facts. (like gravity) But I also have to allow that all such Truths are operational, not carved in any but localized stone. We know too little of the universe to declare any such thing as TRUTH. What our brains establish as truth is conditional, but too many either ignore or conveniently forget that.

There is a reason my screen name is tentative...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:14 am

We are so desperate to believe at times, that we manufacture truths within the brain which are not really truths.


Agreed ... though you neglected to mention the flip side of this issue ...

the mind is equally capable of blocking out truths which it doesn't want to 'see' ... acknowledge.


Achieving the state known as "Beginners Mind" is no easy feat ... tentative is an illusion ... parochialism is much more prevalent.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:50 am

Newtonian laws of gravity is a good example ... about 300 years young.

As long as we limit our universe to trees and apples ... Newtonian laws of gravity are infallible.

Placing our universe ... the planet ... in the larger universe poses challenges ... Newtonian laws of gravity are no longer infallible.

Science has no idea what effect ... if any ... these more truthful laws of gravity will have on human life.

The Fatima events confirm this argument ... the sun must obey the Newtonian laws of gravity ... ergo ... no unusual sun activity October 13, 1917. :)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:06 am

Why bother talking about science at all?

You believe one particular account of the events and it doesn't matter what anyone says. It doesn't matter to you if their argument is based on science or something else entirely.

Just own that, dude. :evilfun:
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:46 am

Why bother talking about science at all?


Try reading the posts ...

What prompted your comments ... did your reverence for science get pricked?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:11 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Why bother talking about science at all?


Try reading the posts ...

What prompted your comments ... did your reverence for science get pricked?
I did read them and I came to the conclusion that it really makes no difference to you what Newton or Einstein would say about the events at Fatima. Neither universal gravitation nor general relativity plays any significant role in your take on it. If they both said that it was impossible then you would ignore them.

Fallible science or infallible science changes nothing. :confusion-shrug:
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:23 am

If they both said that it was impossible then you would ignore them.


Does that place me in the same boat as Galileo and Copernicus? How flattering of you. :)

Fallible science or infallible science changes nothing. :confusion-shrug:


Empirical data points to --> Infallible science becomes fallible science across time and space.

The current institutions of science, religion and philosophy will all eventually collapse. The ever increasing chatter about what will replace them points to such a conclusion.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:02 am

Does that place me in the same boat as Galileo and Copernicus? How flattering of you. :)
Are you saying that you know as much science as they did? Are you flattering yourself?
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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:59 am

I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: 100th Anniversary of the Fatima Events 1917

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:39 pm

Today is the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun event in Fatima Portugal.

People throughout the world continue to witness the likes of the Miracle of the Sun ... amazing!

Readers may ask ... what miracle? ... where? ... when?

Let me quote JSS

it's invisible to the blind.


https://aleteia.org/2017/10/11/travelin ... rrupt-body
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