Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

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Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:31 pm

Now we could go down the logic route and say well there is no evidence etc...but this question relates to emotional need...

Slaughtz said something like..

those who seeks a father in heaven are bastards of the world


As far as I know, I have never seen the use of the word "father" in any other scriptures outside of the modern translation of the bible. Father referring to God the creator. I would even say if you were to read the original Hebrew you wouldn't find that word specifically...This is most likely intentionally added to justify the relationship of Jesus being the "son" with the holy spirit in order to further the trinity concept....

With that said, are the majority of people who embrace Christianity and believe in God bastards? meaning without biological fathers, therefore they are seeking a replacement, or to fill a void for something they have never had?

I would say that this isn't the case as the majority seem to have full households, great grandparents. grandparents, mothers/father and offspring, especially if you look at the bible belt of the USA..

Also in the Quranic scriptures, it states:

God desires that He should make light your burdens, and man is created weak


There is also a concept known as Fitra, which means, according to religion, that humans are created with a natural inclination towards God.

So even if belief in God IS a sign of weakness, then doesn't this confirm what the scriptures are saying, now this may sound like circular reasoning, but what i'm getting at is..

Why do people equate strength to the disbelief in God?

And are they deniers of such a creator and refuse to testify, and submit to his will out of egoistic arrogance?
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:05 pm

As far as I know, I have never seen the use of the word "father" in any other scriptures outside of the modern translation of the bible.




In Dao De Jing, “Dao” – the Creator – is frequently called “the
Mother of all things”. (1:2) “The world has a beginning, that which was the beginning of all
things may be spoken of as the Mother of all things.” (52:1) However, it is interesting that the
Dao is occasionally called Father. “Since ancient times till now, His name is always there, so
that everybody can see He is the Father of all things. How do I know he is the Father? From
the Way.” (21:4)
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:18 pm

In the West ... and the Middle East ... Scripture requires the support of temples, churches, synagogues, mosques ... and a hierarchy of leadership.

In China ... the temple, church, synagogue and mosque ... are within. ergo: the Dao resides within the individual.

The Dao De Jing embodies two tenets ... the "Dao" ... and "Dao De".

While very few Chinese people understand the "scripture" of the Dao ... virtually all Chinese children are taught the expression "Dao De" .
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby humunculus » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:56 pm

mannikin wrote:[...those who seeks a father in heaven are bastards of the world]
As far as I know, I have never seen the use of the word "father" in any other scriptures outside of the modern translation of the bible.

That's quite enough: there are so very many modern Christians who do think and feel that that's an appropriate role for their god..
I wouldn't call them bastards of the world, but they might think that of themselves, since they also believe in original sin and the necessity of becoming reconciled, through their own effort, splus the intercession of a sacrificed deity/sibling, with a very demanding father figure.
I would be more inclined to call them spiritual orphans of the world. Civilization both alienated humans from nature (which is figured as the mother, even while we're raping her) and put them in thrall to the masculine/patriarchal/militaristic command-structure. This was a huge loss of status, autonomy and control for the vast majority of men. (For women, it was straight bondage and punishment.) Civilization does to men what it does to dogs: keeps them in a perpetual state of dependency, or puppyhood. So, of course they long for a better father - an authority figure above the sergeant, the department-head, the district judge, the sheriff, the governor, the king, generalissimo the fuhrer or whatever mortal man they have to obey.

There is. of course, a simpler explanation: Nature is dangerous, indifferent and implacable. Early humans were very much at its mercy. Yet, in the activities of weather, water, vegetation and wildlife, they could see - or imagine - purpose and intelligence. If they could perceive a mind behind nature, they might be able to influence the decisions of that mind. If they could just figure out what the gods want, they could maybe have their own wishes granted. So they projected their own kind of though-process onto the forces of nature: invented something they could talk to, plead with, coerce, bribe, cajole or regulate into more benevolent behaviour toward humans... that is, toward a particular group of humans.

A third - and most likely - possibility for regarding the deity as a parental figure is that early humans tended to die young, leaving a lot of even younger humans literally orphaned. People simply missed the nurturing of their mothers (and so began to attribute maternal characteristics to Nature, which provides sustenance) and the guidance of their fathers (and so they attributed paternal characteristics to source of their moral principles.)

I wouldn't call it weakness to call one's god a father. I would call it intellectual cowardice to defer to that imaginary character, and accept his ancient rules, rather than make rules you consider to be right for reasons you understand. I would certainly call it fraud (at the very least) to advocate and enforce obedience to such an imaginary authority without actually believing in it, the way all religious leaders do.
Last edited by humunculus on Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?


Yes

strength is its own creator.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Artimas » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:14 am

Believing yes. Entertaining a thought with out believing it is where genius, intelligence and education stems. Pretty much what Aristotle said.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Some Guy in History » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:08 pm

If you never question anything and everything you know, then you never truly know what it means to take a leap of faith into an endless abyss of uncertainty only to come up spades somewhere along the way.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:38 pm

humunculus wrote:
mannikin wrote:[...those who seeks a father in heaven are bastards of the world]
As far as I know, I have never seen the use of the word "father" in any other scriptures outside of the modern translation of the bible.

That's quite enough: there are so very many modern Christians who do think and feel that that's an appropriate role for their god..
I wouldn't call them bastards of the world, but they might think that of themselves, since they also believe in original sin and the necessity of becoming reconciled, through their own effort, splus the intercession of a sacrificed deity/sibling, with a very demanding father figure.
I would be more inclined to call them spiritual orphans of the world. Civilization both alienated humans from nature (which is figured as the mother, even while we're raping her) and put them in thrall to the masculine/patriarchal/militaristic command-structure. This was a huge loss of status, autonomy and control for the vast majority of men. (For women, it was straight bondage and punishment.) Civilization does to men what it does to dogs: keeps them in a perpetual state of dependency, or puppyhood. So, of course they long for a better father - an authority figure above the sergeant, the department-head, the district judge, the sheriff, the governor, the king, generalissimo the fuhrer or whatever mortal man they have to obey.

There is. of course, a simpler explanation: Nature is dangerous, indifferent and implacable. Early humans were very much at its mercy. Yet, in the activities of weather, water, vegetation and wildlife, they could see - or imagine - purpose and intelligence. If they could perceive a mind behind nature, they might be able to influence the decisions of that mind. If they could just figure out what the gods want, they could maybe have their own wishes granted. So they projected their own kind of though-process onto the forces of nature: invented something they could talk to, plead with, coerce, bribe, cajole or regulate into more benevolent behaviour toward humans... that is, toward a particular group of humans.

A third - and most likely - possibility for regarding the deity as a parental figure is that early humans tended to die young, leaving a lot of even younger humans literally orphaned. People simply missed the nurturing of their mothers (and so began to attribute maternal characteristics to Nature, which provides sustenance) and the guidance of their fathers (and so they attributed paternal characteristics to source of their moral principles.)

I wouldn't call it weakness to call one's god a father. I would call it intellectual cowardice to defer to that imaginary character, and accept his ancient rules, rather than make rules you consider to be right for reasons you understand. I would certainly call it fraud (at the very least) to advocate and enforce obedience to such an imaginary authority without actually believing in it, the way all religious leaders do.


Nice post, humunculus.

I pretty much agree completely, with that said, I have always had this feeling to escape into the wild where I can provide a platform for my natural self to grow, extending myself over the environment in terms of dominance by learning the way of nature equaling my survival with a deeper contentment. It seems absurd to me that we become so dependent upon a manmade concept on civilization which can potentially collapse releasing us all into the wild unprepared.

Exposing oneself to the wild is honesty, true survival where this honesty is carried through is in preparation between man and reality. Reality being a force that drags man to the premise and is confronted, this confrontation solidifies the relationship and connection to nature in sound ordering, dominance and growth may express itself as an ideal upon nature but not the negation of it especially if the ideal is manifested out of this natural circumstance..

the reality of the Ideal may produce ease where nature appears to no longer be wild or man's wildness exceeds that of nature, or synchronizes with it.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:30 am

Nice post, humunculus.

I pretty much agree completely, with that said, I have always had this feeling to escape into the wild where I can provide a platform for my natural self to grow, extending myself over the environment in terms of dominance by learning the way of nature equaling my survival with a deeper contentment. It seems absurd to me that we become so dependent upon a manmade concept on civilization which can potentially collapse releasing us all into the wild unprepared.

Exposing oneself to the wild is honesty, true survival where this honesty is carried through is in preparation between man and reality. Reality being a force that drags man to the premise and is confronted, this confrontation solidifies the relationship and connection to nature in sound ordering, dominance and growth may express itself as an ideal upon nature but not the negation of it especially if the ideal is manifested out of this natural circumstance..

the reality of the Ideal may produce ease where nature appears to no longer be wild or man's wildness exceeds that of nature, or synchronizes with it.


Manni ... the imagery you paint with your words is on par with DaVinci's painting of the Mona Lisa ... for me at least.

Specifically her smile ... the smile that seems to say ... "I know something you don't ... he he"

Manni ... do you know something we don't?

I really hope you get an enthusiastic response ... your post is so rich ... would be a shame if ILP members fail to inspire you to flush out some of the many "diamonds" embodied in your few words.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:12 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Manni ... the imagery you paint with your words is on par with DaVinci's painting of the Mona Lisa ... for me at least.

Specifically her smile ... the smile that seems to say ... "I know something you don't ... he he"



With her trust in DaVinci, she knew your non-existent eyes will be blessed upon perception of her several centuries after her non-existence..

Manni ... do you know something we don't?


I know that the force of reality I spoke of earlier, that which drags man into confrontation and if he fails to respond accordingly with the will to overcome, then the friction sweeps him away..one can only imagine what occurs afterwards, if anything at all..

I really hope you get an enthusiastic response ... your post is so rich ... would be a shame if ILP members fail to inspire you to flush out some of the many "diamonds" embodied in your few words.

Perhaps the word "flush" isn't the most appropriate, maybe the word "deliver" is more welcoming to your mind.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:06 am

Mother ≡ that which nurtures
Father ≡ that which instigates or causes.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:43 am

For the moment ... a few more comments on the potency of the written word ... in this case the word 'flush'.

When (insert adjective here) English readers encounter the word 'flush' ... their memory will almost immediately retrieve all the associations/patterns connected to the word 'flush' ... the most popular being ... flush the toilet ... flush away ... the waste ... the unwanted. For this class of thinker the word "deliver" is much more suitable.

My intention in using the word 'flush is:

a good bird dog will flush out birds that the hunter ... in this scenario "seeker" ... would otherwise not see.


There are several brilliant "bird dog" type thinkers in ILP. Let's hope they will "sniff" among your written words and "sniff" among your unwritten words ... the words between the lines ... and flush out stuff the casual observer would otherwise miss.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:27 am

Where are all the modern era Ralph Waldo Emmerson(s)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Waldo_Emerson

Not even any "desktop" Emmerson(s)?

What a shame!

Manni ... looks like you're a rare breed ... you're on your own.

Well not totally on your own ... you got me ... OK you're on your own. :D
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:22 pm

beliefs per se, are not signs of a "weakness",
but what is the effect or point of a belief can be a sign of weakness.....

now many use this belief in god as a crutch or as a means of showing
dominance and use of god in this fashion is a weakness......
if you need a belief in god to maintain your self worth, then that
is a weakness or if you use your belief in god to show how superior
you are, yes, that is weakness.... and most people use god in this way.....

the question I have always asked is this, would you still believe in god
even IF there was no punishment for non belief?
most people have belief because of the punishment aspect of
religion and that is weakness.. holding a belief because you would
get punished for holding another belief... that is weakness,
so it comes down to the reason, WHY, does someone hold that belief
that makes it a weakness or a strength.....


Kropotkin
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:09 am

mannikin wrote:Omg. This is not your blog, jeez, I can't believe you came back for the third time and continued to insult. Yes we have all established you are nuttier than squirrel shit..

But if you wish to bitch about unfair treatment then make a thread about it in the appropriate section.

Nobody is going to be tolerating your psychotic antics.

And for the third time..magz can you kindly delete those pointless insulting unrelated post of his, thanks...you know, magz you shouldnt have to put up with his nonsense he clearly isnt respecting the rules


Manni ... you should be encouraged by the resistance ... it's a sure sign you are on to something noble.

Yeah ... I know ... easy for me to say ... I'm not the target of the hostility.

OTH ... maybe I am ... seems the posts tag onto my posts ... who knows ... who cares ... let's go forward with a mellow heart.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:13 am

With that said, are the majority of people who embrace Christianity and believe in God bastards? meaning without biological fathers, therefore they are seeking a replacement, or to fill a void for something they have never had?

I would say that this isn't the case as the majority seem to have full households, great grandparents. grandparents, mothers/father and offspring, especially if you look at the bible belt of the USA..


Christians will claim they are among the most family-oriented peoples. I will agree they aren't exactly bastards. They do have fathers. But isn't it a little weird that they subordinate themselves to an imaginary authority that is God? Does that not indicate that they have lost the connection to their roots? Does that not indicate they no longer have their own tradition?

I would say that Christian tradition is an example of what forms when a folk, a homogeneous group of people, degenerates into a rabble, a heterogeneous group of people. This degeneration can be brought on by many causes but let's say the major one is the mixing of people of different origins (e.g. ethnicities, castes, etc.) Christian tradition, then, would merely be an attempt, brought on by fear of anarchy, to make heterogeneous group of people cooperate with each other. It's a made up tradition to which everyone fearing anarchy submits.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:47 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:beliefs per se, are not signs of a "weakness",
but what is the effect or point of a belief can be a sign of weakness.....

now many use this belief in god as a crutch or as a means of showing
dominance and use of god in this fashion is a weakness......
if you need a belief in god to maintain your self worth, then that
is a weakness or if you use your belief in god to show how superior
you are, yes, that is weakness.... and most people use god in this way.....

the question I have always asked is this, would you still believe in god
even IF there was no punishment for non belief?
most people have belief because of the punishment aspect of
religion and that is weakness.. holding a belief because you would
get punished for holding another belief... that is weakness,
so it comes down to the reason, WHY, does someone hold that belief
that makes it a weakness or a strength.....


Kropotkin


Peter ... your comments certainly have merit ... worthy of consideration ... and absolutely conform to the OP.

Yet ... the OP has evolved/morphed beyond the opening posts.

How so?

Manni launched the OP ... somehow activity in the OP gave birth to new intriguing/interesting thoughts ... again from Manni.

I will repeat them here for ease of reference:

Nice post, humunculus.

I pretty much agree completely, with that said, I have always had this feeling to escape into the wild where I can provide a platform for my natural self to grow, extending myself over the environment in terms of dominance by learning the way of nature equaling my survival with a deeper contentment. It seems absurd to me that we become so dependent upon a manmade concept on civilization which can potentially collapse releasing us all into the wild unprepared.

Exposing oneself to the wild is honesty, true survival where this honesty is carried through is in preparation between man and reality. Reality being a force that drags man to the premise and is confronted, this confrontation solidifies the relationship and connection to nature in sound ordering, dominance and growth may express itself as an ideal upon nature but not the negation of it especially if the ideal is manifested out of this natural circumstance..

the reality of the Ideal may produce ease where nature appears to no longer be wild or man's wildness exceeds that of nature, or synchronizes with it.


Yes ... I'm being somewhat obstinate ... seems it's a trait that evolves from being active on ILP. :D
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:32 am

..and what about that reference has caught your eye, Tom?
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:02 am

Is hypocrisy a weakness? Not necessarily. But it often is.

Hypocrisy entails duplicity. In the case of views, it entails having two sets of views: one set of views which represents everything one truly believes in and one set of views which represents what one does not really believe in but is useful to pretend to believe in. The former is usually kept private and hidden obviously because this is what is necessary in order to make the second useful.

Now, the problem with duplicity is that it consumes a whole lot of energy . . . it almost requires two separate brains in order to make it a powerful strategy that can work in the long-term. So in theory, duplicity can be strength, but in practice, it isn't.

Sooner or later the person ends up confusing the two sets. One starts believing one's own lies. And to make it worse, this isn't achieved by eliminating the first set altogether and then replacing it with second set. No, this is achieved by suppressing the first set, which consumes a lot of energy, though a lot less than maintaining the two sets does.

Can you now see how weak this approach is?
It's an energy drain.

I would say this is the problem Christians suffer from. They have two traditions within themselves: the original one, which they suppress because they fear anarchy; and the pragmatic one, which they express because it alleviates their fear of anarchy.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:14 am

What is the original one?
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:22 am

I don't know. That would require precise knowledge regarding what sort of actions are initiated by their brain. Nonetheless, we can assume that most people by their nature are more inclined to be scientific than to lie. So you can expect the presence of scientific instincts, rebelling against practices such as prayer, that are suppressed, and thus stunted in their expression, by personal interests such as fear.
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby mannikin » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:43 am

Maybe fear was created by God as a mercy upon you as it motivates you back towards God himself?
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:16 am

mannikin wrote:..and what about that reference has caught your eye, Tom?


First some background for those readers who have not followed the thought exchanges Manni and I engaged in recently.

1) Manni ... and many other ILP members, yourself included ... have had a significant/beneficial impact on both the reservoir of my thoughts and my thought processes. If nothing else ... brought old thoughts to the surface again ... and subjected them to regurgitation.

2) I've enjoyed not only her concrete expression ... her metaphors as well. The one that comes to mind at the moment is ... "you don't seem too badly infected by the virus". First time I heard/read the word "virus" in a spiritual context ... fascinating ... explosive..

3) Manni is a self professed Pagan ... Pagans prefer a "Nature" based world view. I'm a Catholic who believes Catholicism is also a "Nature" based world view ... though much more esoteric and abstract in it's expression of "Nature". Admittedly, this last comment may be a personal attempt to defend clinging to my faith.

4) I chose to defer any comment to Humunculus ... since his post triggered Manni's comments. Seems he is either too busy or too pragmatic to respond.

On with what caught my eye ... will only cite one example ... wanting to leave some for other interested readers:

I have always had this feeling to escape into the wild where I can provide a platform for my natural self to grow


the individual consciousness is bursting at the seems with data ... memory ... instinct(s) and so on ... ergo ... information overload. Though the capacity of the individual consciousness is likely unlimited ... most of the capacity resides in the subconscious.

our readily accessible consciousness is a terribly muddled mess ... the "diamonds" residing among the clutter ... the waste ... the superfluous and so on.

the escape into the wilderness ... what an attractive thought ... escape from all the clutter, waste, confusion and so in our individual consciousness. The result being ... hopefully ... discover the true basics concerning human life.

Manni's thought reminds me of everything I know about the abundant empirical evidence involving the hermit ... the reclus ... the ascetic ... the flowering of monasteries, convents, temples, Guru/devotee relationships and so on.

Are the above comments clear as mud? :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:59 pm

If believing in a creator is a strength and not believing in one is a strength, then what weakness is there when to achieve strength, they had to fight?

Is that simple enough to follow?
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"Everybody says ["I don't want to die alone"]. But in my experience, push comes to shove... it isn't the "alone" part people want to avoid. It's the dying."

--Cletus Kasady (Earth-616)
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Re: Is belief in a creator a sign of weakness?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:59 pm

Some Guy in History wrote:If believing in a creator is a strength and not believing in one is a strength, then what weakness is there when to achieve strength, they had to fight?

Is that simple enough to follow?


awesome :D
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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pilgrim-seeker_tom
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