The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:28 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:The key elements of New Age doctrine is the belief that humans are divine. The idea that people are immortal gods is a lie used to pull people away from God. Author Dave Hunt an American Christian apologist, tells us that "Teilhard dreamed of humanity merging into ‘God’ and each realizing his own godhood at the Omega point. This belief has inspired many of today’s New Age leaders.”

Teilhard said this:
It is a law of the universe that in all things there is prior existence. Before every form there is a prior, but lesser evolved form. Each one of us is evolving towards the God-head.


The first two lies spoken to humankind, namely: “You shall not surely die,” and “You will be like God.”


AS ... I have read very few of your posts ... making it uncharitable for me to draw conclusions.

OTH ... in a couple of your recent posts you seem to favour scripture ... as it is written in the Bible. I do as well but I like James' perspective on scripture ... his comment ... paraphrasing ... or until we understand what truth those words are intended to convey.

eg Genesis 1:27

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:52 pm

We don't speak the same language.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:43 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:We don't speak the same language.


AS ... empathy ... which requires putting our ego in our pocket temporarily ... is the first step in healing and reconciliation.

... and yes ... it goes both ways ... I am making an effort ... and you?
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:47 pm

The first two lies spoken to humankind, namely: “You shall not surely die,” and “You will be like God.”
Adam and Eve were immortal. Once they ate from the tree of knowledge, they had to be kicked out of Eden so that they would not become like God and life forever. The possibility of being immortal and like God is still potentially there in the future.
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Genesis 3:22 (NIV)

:-k Jesus says many times that you will have eternal life.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby Pandora » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:13 pm

James S Saint wrote: But whince did the structure arise?
If there were no energy gradient set up such us ours (cold universe (earth + sun) cold universe) [note, a decaying sun that is also in compliance the 2nd law of thmd] we would not have complex life forms (which feed off the sun).

Your theory suggests that complexity rises and then falls. It doesn't imply that complexity isn't a violation of entropy.
I don't see complexity as violating entropy in the long run. We are able to exist because of the micro bubble of energy gradients that we find ourselves in. Complex life forms are more efficient at energy transfer, as you can see from eco tropic pyramids and transfer efficiency at trophic levels. Only 10% of energy is used at each level and 90% is released as heat. Now, imagine how much energy has to be wasted before we get a chance to waste our own, just food-wise. Now, think about how much energy we use and waste just for doing what humans do on daily basis? It's like we just want to transfer (and waste) as much energy as we can possibly get our hands/minds on. So, in a sense, we can say that increasing complexity, including us, is to do what we do and balance things in universe. We are not special in that sense, only a functional cog in the machinery and certainly not above the natural law. People who claim that evolving complexity is an evidence of something divine seem to forget that there is no such thing as free lunch in the universe and even we are dependent on our environment for our existence.

Image



The fact is that the level of entropy in the universe has never, ever changed. And never will...
And neither does the whole universe's level of complexity increase or decrease. Through time in any one region, entropy and complexity raises and lowers. The total average throughout the entire universe is infinitely stable, perfectly anentropic.
I take it you don't believe in 2nd law of thermodynamics which states:

...that the total entropy of an isolated system can only increase over time or it can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium) or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.


Black-holes are the most obvious anti-entropy formations throughout the universe. But once two or more of them collide, the entropy is restored in an explosive forming and scattering of millions of galaxies.
Ah, the black holes. This theory is still being debated. Do they violate or do they not violate the 2nd law? Only recently Hawkins declared that there are not 'true' black holes, since even they leak radiation and are bound to eventually loose their mass with time. And I would say that it wouldn't be surprising that with time, if all matter is dispersing, they ought to e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y disappear as well. But that's my take on it.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:10 am

Pandora wrote:Ah, the black holes. This theory is still being debated. Do they violate or do they not violate the 2nd law? Only recently Hawkins declared that there are not 'true' black holes, since even they leak radiation and are bound to eventually loose their mass with time. And I would say that it wouldn't be surprising that with time, if all matter is dispersing, they ought to e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y disappear as well. But that's my take on it.


While I don't understand the technical terminology of your comments ... I do understand the notion of "doubt".

Pandora ... your last paragraph is antithetical to the rest of your post ...you are sufficiently humble to leave the door open a tiny crack.

My take is ... humanity still does not know ... with any degree of certainty.

As Perry admitted, he, Hawking, and Strominger are not 100 percent sure if this is the right answer to the black hole information paradox, but their paper is now out there for their peers to pick over everything and help them figure it out. "We’re saying that it’s a step on the way," he concludes.

For more info, head to Seth Fletcher’s interview with Strominger over at Scientific American, where the two discuss many particulars in the paper at great length. One thing’s for sure, while the details of the paper might be beyond the scope of the average person, they’re ensuring that today and the months ahead will be a great time to be alive if you’re a theoretical physicist.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:50 am

Phyllo wrote:

The possibility of being immortal and like God is still potentially there in the future.


"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17).

Name one verse in the bible that says that man has an immortal soul?
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:01 am

Pilgrim wrote:
or until we understand what truth those words are intended to convey.


What do you mean?
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:05 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:Phyllo wrote:

The possibility of being immortal and like God is still potentially there in the future.


"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17).

Name one verse in the bible that says that man has an immortal soul?
You just moved the goalposts. Your previous post was about not dying . Now you want me to produce texts about the "immortal soul".

You also did not respond to the Genesis passage where God says that if Adam and Eve stay in Eden then they will eat from the tree of life and live forever.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:21 am

Pilgrim_Tom wrote:or until we understand what truth those words are intended to convey.


A Shieldmaiden wrote:What do you mean?



I was referring to a comment made by James in a discourse you had with him a few days ago.

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
Perhaps make it more mainstream, perhaps invite leaders of other religions from all over the world and make it clear you consider all these religions to be valid as well and all that unscientific stuff about God creating the world in six days and creating man out of the dust of the earth is to be thrown out.

James wrote:
Or perhaps, given the right situation, provide the proper understanding behind those words.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:29 am

Phyllo wrote: The possibility of being immortal and like God is still potentially there in the future.


A Shieldmaiden wrote:Name one verse in the bible that says that man has an immortal soul?


Seems James has answered your questions ... yet again! ... JSS is turning out to be as smart as many ILP members think he is.

James Wrote:

The book is about SPIRIT, not OBJECTS. And more importantly, it was written for and by people of an entirely different culture, language, and concern than those of today.


Scholars and theologians agree that at the time the Bible was written people of the day were just starting to hear ... talk about ... immortality.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby Pandora » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:30 am

pilgrim_tom wrote:
As Perry admitted, he, Hawking, and Strominger are not 100 percent sure if this is the right answer to the black hole information paradox, but their paper is now out there for their peers to pick over everything and help them figure it out. "We’re saying that it’s a step on the way," he concludes.

For more info, head to Seth Fletcher’s interview with Strominger over at Scientific American, where the two discuss many particulars in the paper at great length. One thing’s for sure, while the details of the paper might be beyond the scope of the average person, they’re ensuring that today and the months ahead will be a great time to be alive if you’re a theoretical physicist.
We'll be trying to take a peek at it soon:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38937141
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby James S Saint » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:12 pm

Pandora wrote:
James S Saint wrote: But whince did the structure arise?
If there were no energy gradient set up such us ours (cold universe (earth + sun) cold universe) [note, a decaying sun that is also in compliance the 2nd law of thmd] we would not have complex life forms (which feed off the sun).

Your theory suggests that complexity rises and then falls. It doesn't imply that complexity isn't a violation of entropy.
I don't see complexity as violating entropy in the long run. We are able to exist because of the micro bubble of energy gradients that we find ourselves in. Complex life forms are more efficient at energy transfer, as you can see from eco tropic pyramids and transfer efficiency at trophic levels. Only 10% of energy is used at each level and 90% is released as heat. Now, imagine how much energy has to be wasted before we get a chance to waste our own, just food-wise. Now, think about how much energy we use and waste just for doing what humans do on daily basis? It's like we just want to transfer (and waste) as much energy as we can possibly get our hands/minds on. So, in a sense, we can say that increasing complexity, including us, is to do what we do and balance things in universe. We are not special in that sense, only a functional cog in the machinery and certainly not above the natural law. People who claim that evolving complexity is an evidence of something divine seem to forget that there is no such thing as free lunch in the universe and even we are dependent on our environment for our existence.

Image



The fact is that the level of entropy in the universe has never, ever changed. And never will...
And neither does the whole universe's level of complexity increase or decrease. Through time in any one region, entropy and complexity raises and lowers. The total average throughout the entire universe is infinitely stable, perfectly anentropic.
I take it you don't believe in 2nd law of thermodynamics which states:

...that the total entropy of an isolated system can only increase over time or it can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium) or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.


Black-holes are the most obvious anti-entropy formations throughout the universe. But once two or more of them collide, the entropy is restored in an explosive forming and scattering of millions of galaxies.
Ah, the black holes. This theory is still being debated. Do they violate or do they not violate the 2nd law? Only recently Hawkins declared that there are not 'true' black holes, since even they leak radiation and are bound to eventually loose their mass with time. And I would say that it wouldn't be surprising that with time, if all matter is dispersing, they ought to e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y disappear as well. But that's my take on it.

Pan, you seem to be caught up in the excuse making of a specific set of people who desperately tried to defend their preference of prophecy and belief. But if you want to discuss the real story, it is best to do so on the science forum. For example, the Second "Law" of Thermodynamics has been proven wrong for over a century, despite the many attempts to rewrite it to make it seem correct. The most correct rewrite stated that it is merely a propensity, not a law, which would be true. And as black holes crush, disintegrate, and absorb entire galaxies, some radiation escapes. Black holes do not decrease in size or mass. They are run away gravitation, cosmic vacuum cleaners spraying a little refuse dust in their wake.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:39 pm

Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh's Egypt Babylon Rome Washington

When I ponder the above 7 data points I see:

1) The rise and fall of complexity.

2) Rising complexity spawning arrogance.

3) Rising arrogance triggering a fall.

4) Cyclical ... yes

5) Linear ... ???

Begs the question ... where are we at the moment?
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:23 pm

What difference does it make where you are?
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:10 pm

phyllo wrote:What difference does it make where you are?


Phyllo ... allow me to change one word in your question.

What difference does it make where we are?

Perhaps the answer is 'forecast' ... all businesses do it ... the successful businesses get it right! eg Nokia and Apple

For the desperate people ... desperate according to James

James wrote:
Pan, you seem to be caught up in the excuse making of a specific set of people who desperately tried to defend their preference of prophecy and belief.


Matthew 16:3

But He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘The weather will be fair, for the sky is red;’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but not the signs of the times! A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Then He left them and went away.…
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:25 pm

You changed the question but did not provide an answer.

The weather people can't even accurately predict the weather two weeks from now. What can you/we forecast? And what does it all have to do with complexity?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:30 pm

Ice ages last tens of thousands of years.

Rome lasted hundreds or thousands of years, depending on how you count.

How can these be considered "data points" in any reasonable sense?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby phyllo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:33 pm

A wicked and adulterous generation
Somebody has characterized every age in this way. :lol:
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:47 pm

phyllo wrote:You changed the question but did not provide an answer.

The weather people can't even accurately predict the weather two weeks from now. What can you/we forecast? And what does it all have to do with complexity?


Phyllo ... I shared some thoughts that popped into my consciousness ... triggered at least in part by Pan's comments concerning the scientific/philosophical notion of complexity.

I have no blue print of the future.

My small mind finds no contradiction between Pan's scientific/philosophical view of complexity and Teilhard's somewhat tainted ... religious/spiritual ... view of complexity.

All people predict/forecast every day ... unconsciously ... we all predict/forecast that the sun will come up tomorrow. :lol:
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:57 pm

phyllo wrote:
A wicked and adulterous generation
Somebody has characterized every age in this way. :lol:


... and all of those "somebody(s) were right ... it's simply a question of degree. :lol:
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:12 am

Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh's Egypt Babylon Rome Washington


The Ice Age, Atlantis(Eden) is born from God(s), The Floods swept away God's shame/disappointment, Sumeria?, Egypt/Babylon?, Rome?, Washington/New York?, Armageddon?

If all religions were melded together, what would be THE tenet they were all comprised of?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!


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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:01 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh's Egypt Babylon Rome Washington


The Ice Age, Atlantis(Eden) is born from God(s), The Floods swept away God's shame/disappointment, Sumeria?, Egypt/Babylon?, Rome?, Washington/New York?, Armageddon?

If all religions were melded together, what would be THE tenet they were all comprised of?


In a word ... "arrogance"

Attempts to usurp the authority ... superiority of God.
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:08 am

usurp as in abrogate

the late Dr Wayne Dyer mentioned a plausible acronym for EGO ... Edge God Out
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Re: The Phenomenon of Man ... Wo-man

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:15 am

abrogate as in repeal God's laws and replace them with man's laws.
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