Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:08 pm

The Eden story symbolizes a point of mammalian evolution--the fall into mind with consciousness of Self. There was/is no original sin. See Matthew Fox's "Original Blessing".
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby phyllo » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:22 pm

There was/is no original sin.
The unfortunate thing about original sin, is that it has made many people feel bad/guilty for no good reason. It's a very destructive doctrine.
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby James S Saint » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:11 pm

phyllo wrote:
There was/is no original sin.
The unfortunate thing about original sin, is that it has made many people feel bad/guilty for no good reason. It's a very destructive doctrine.

The truth often is. And sometimes it changes from being what everyone needs to know to what everyone should forget.

But the one thing you can count on, is that lying is always present.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:18 am

JSS wrote:
Anyone with any real education concerning the scriptures knows that the words were never to be taken literally. A "tree" is not a tree. "Bread" is not bread. "Water" is not water.


Metaphors and symbolism are used in prophecy, some examples

Trees refer to people

Water means nations

Woman is a church

Dragon/serpent refers to Satan

Not forgetting days mean years


Genesis is very clear in its meaning and literal concerning the "tree".

Genesis
6 Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.

It reverts to symbolism when referring to prophecy

Genesis 3:15King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

“I am the vine, you are the branches, and my father is the gardener.” The metaphor of the vine.

But the numbers are on your side James. According to a Barna Group study, (The Barna Group is an evangelical Christian polling firm based in Ventura, California) 55% of American pastors do not believe in the Bible anymore as the unerring Word of God and they say, it is not to be taken too literally.

The sad truth is, however, that rarely does a congregation question the pastor or it's leadership. Most people simply accept without checking its accuracy in the Scriptures.

Letting the Bible explain itself allows for no other private interpretation.

The Bible calls itself a double-edged sword:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12 NKJV).
Last edited by A Shieldmaiden on Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:24 pm

Adam, Eve and Serpent represent the three parts (stages) of the human mind/brain--forebrain, mammalian and reptilian. In that view, the story aligns with evolutionary changes. I would suggest that our experiences of these changes provide us with the thoughts and language with which we can describe anything. Had we lived during the time the Genesis story was written we would probably have seen our motives in terms of men, women and animals.
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:39 pm

JSS wrote:

It mentions a "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Have you ever seen a tree of knowledge .. of anything?

If it was to be literal, don't you think that science would have discovered one of those laying about, perhaps fossilized by now? I can tell you where to find one. They became very common just a few decades ago. And the fruit from that particular tree still destroys paradise for the same reason now as then.


In the first chapter of Genesis 1.11-13 it tells that God filled the earth with trees on the third day of Creation.

In the second chapter it is written that two trees stood out as unique from all of the others. Genesis 2.9 "And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

In the last chapter of the Bible it says in Revelation 22:1-2 that the tree of life stands in the very center of the city of God, no longer on earth, but will be returned when the earth is renewed.

The two trees also illustrate an important fact. Humans were designed with the freedom of choice.
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:44 am

Rev Karban's scripture commentary for March 19th seems to address some of the issues raised in this OP. Perhaps reading it will trigger some worthwhile ILP member commentary or questions.

03/19/2017

MARCH 19TH, 2017: THIRD SUNDAY OF LENT

Exodus 17:3-7; Romans 5:1-2, 5-8; John 4:5-42

We know we're dealing with the Yahwistic source of the Torah when during those passages describing the Chosen People's Exodus and wilderness wanderings the author goes into detail about the Israelites' griping, grumbling and complaining. Today's Exodus pericope provides a classic example: “. . . The people grumbled against Moses, saying, ‘Why did you ever make us leave Egypt? Was it just to have us die here of thirst . . . ?'” Scholars believe this 10th century BCE author had a good reason for zeroing on that embarrassing aspect of her ancestors' personality.

Our sacred authors always write for specific groups of people. They never compose their works for “everyone;” certainly not for us. The faces of the communities for whom they write are always before their eyes. Their unique problems prompt them to write. If there were no problems in our ancient faith communities, we'd have no Scripture. "[color=#0000BF]echoes of JSS comments

It's easy to conclude there must have been lots of griping, grumbling and complaining in the Yahwist's community, else we wouldn't have today's first reading. Thankfully the author actually tells us what the whining was about – a simple question. “Is Yahweh in our midst or not?”

Like all faith communities, the Yahwist's fell into the trap of creating a “sacred history:” a time like no other, when God worked in special ways for special people, a time which made their own day and age pale in comparison. If only they could have taken part in the Exodus when Yahweh worked those famous signs and wonders, or even participated in the 40-year trek through the wilderness when Yahweh constantly appeared to the Israelites, assuring them of his/her presence. But now, over 200 years later, God no longer did what God did during their sacred history. It was left to them simply to complain and grumble about Yahweh's absence.

That seems to be why the Yahwistic author constantly reminds her readers that even during that unique Exodus event, their ancestors also griped and complained about what Yahweh was and wasn't doing. There never was a special sacred history, a time when everything was hunky dory. The Yahwist was convinced that God's working today, just as God worked in the past. We know how to surface that work and presence in the past, but find it difficult to uncover it in the present. The answer to the question above is, “Yes, Yahweh is in our midst. We just don't take the time and make the effort to notice Yahweh's presence.”

Paul of Tarsus is a firm believer in the risen Jesus working in our lives right here and now. He/she isn't just killing time, patiently waiting in the wings for us to first change into authentic other Christs before springing into action. Our state of soul isn't a condition for such action. The Apostle reminds the community in Rome of one of our faith's most amazing facts, “God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.” That insight applies not just to the past or distant future. It means our sacred history is happening all around us, even as we're reading this commentary.

Perhaps the most important line in today's gospel is Jesus' remark to the woman at the well, “If you knew the gift of God and who is saying to you ‘Give me a drink,' you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” John obviously presumes that “living water” is part of our everyday lives. But it's a part almost no one notices.

Instead of griping and complaining about God abandoning us in crucial situations, we should begin to understand that we've probably abandoned God
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Re: Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:25 am

Amen. Like I said, lacking faith/trust in God, our Creator, was and will always be the original sin of Mankind.
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