Suffering and gods invisibility

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Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Amorphos » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:20 am

Suffering

God is at his most invisible/unnoticeable when we most need him ~ is the message I got from the vicar when my mother died. I found myself believing him and even thought to myself that I could envision that as a fact in my life. Shame about all those other cunts though, oh and me when in the end I suffer and die.
It appears there are limits to how much help we are going to get from the other side. Clearly there will be no physical help for anyone, though in my experience someone/thing else was holding my hand when it was trying to end it. So what’s the big secret, why doesn’t divinity et al [any variant of] want to actually help in a visible sense. Why is there no hand for all the other instances of suffering. I am not having a go at God and religion, as I can see the reasons for death in this world especially if there is an other-world after this life.

Why the invisibility though. To me that implies there is actually a reason to suffer [being forged perhaps], and not just that we suffer as a consequence of our existence and the world. Indeed we do live in a world with suffering and death regardless, but what reason could one have to impute suffering into creation apart from accidental or consequential or relief from such things, this is what I get stuck on.
For example, I can imagine a duality at the core of existence, and that would suffice for the base reason behind suffering. Yet given that divinity could have made existence without duality [here I am taking that as base such to place the question], there has to be a reason or perhaps particular reasons to the individual?

Or is it as simple as; to make stuff you have to have a duality I.e. such to divide one thing from another in/from a oneness. Thereafter god looses control or chooses to loose control because that has to occur or you don’t get existence [duality manifesting it]. he’s God though, and an omnipotent entity could claw back command even if he let that go originally.
Not to mention that I’d assume that God wouldn’t want us to kill someone [though shalt not kill] if they had a terminal illness or wanted death because of how suffering collates, accumulates and gathers, akin to more bad luck for those who already have bad luck.

Could the answer be that God sticks to his guns - the ten commandments? I didn’t know that invisibility was one of them. :-k
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Kriswest » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:34 am

Perhaps species takes precedent over individual.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:46 pm

So what’s the big secret, why doesn’t divinity et al [any variant of] want to actually help in a visible sense. Why is there no hand for all the other instances of suffering.
What should God do?
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
So what’s the big secret, why doesn’t divinity et al [any variant of] want to actually help in a visible sense. Why is there no hand for all the other instances of suffering.
What should God do?


John Shea says: The false self will crack when the rooster crows. There many ways to wake up!


Is there any suffering in the life cycle of the butterfly?

metamorphosis.jpg
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby phyllo » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:10 pm

:-?
Whatever that means...
:shock:
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:23 pm

tom,

In regards to waking up, after having a discussion with another about a human being's value of being redeemable, an agreement was reached that one must want redemption to have it which translates into one must reach for what one needs. Who is responsible for what a Man needs?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:42 am

WendyDarling wrote:tom,

In regards to waking up, after having a discussion with another about a human being's value of being redeemable, an agreement was reached that one must want redemption to have it which translates into one must reach for what one needs. Who is responsible for what a Man needs?


Wendy ... for me ... all humans want redemption ... some are conscious of the "want" and others are not. Again at the concrete level ... my personal experience ... a wise and learned man informed me many years ago ... paraphrasing ... you cannot help someone who doesn't ask you for help ... ergo ... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make the horse drink the water.

an agreement was reached that one must want redemption to have it which translates into one must reach for what one needs.


also seems to parallel the analogy I really like ... the baby chick must break through the egg shell with it's own energy ... mother hen will not do it for him/her. :-)
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:46 am

phyllo wrote::-?
Whatever that means...
:shock:


Phyllo ... one can expand their knowledge base by reading the words of "others" and listening/watching the actions and words of "others"

One cannot expand their "wisdom" base in the same manner ... wisdom only expands with experience. True learning ... ergo ... wisdom ... only occurs when one "sees" without the benefit of explanation.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:05 am

pilgrim_tom wrote:
phyllo wrote::-?
Whatever that means...
:shock:


Phyllo ... one can expand their knowledge base by reading the words of "others" and listening/watching the actions and words of "others"

One cannot expand their "wisdom" base in the same manner ... wisdom only expands with experience. True learning ... ergo ... wisdom ... only occurs when one "sees" without the benefit of explanation.


True. Their wisdom base(needed more emphasis) only occurs when one "sees" without the benefit of explanation.

Silence falls on deaf ears.<---Where did that come from?

I get your horse and chick analogies, but these unwise folks are ruining the planet and each other without conscience. Is it God's fault or their own? Mankind must assume the responsibility for Mankind's behaviors.

Now, what's the deal with the Devil? Is he a disease?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:27 am

WendyDarling wrote:
pilgrim_tom wrote:
phyllo wrote::-?
Whatever that means...
:shock:


Phyllo ... one can expand their knowledge base by reading the words of "others" and listening/watching the actions and words of "others"

One cannot expand their "wisdom" base in the same manner ... wisdom only expands with experience. True learning ... ergo ... wisdom ... only occurs when one "sees" without the benefit of explanation.


True. Their wisdom base(needed more emphasis) only occurs when one "sees" without the benefit of explanation.


WendyDarling wrote:Silence falls on deaf ears.<---Where did that come from?


My mom often used the following version of your idiom ... on me :D

goes in one ear and out the other


both idioms seem to echo what I wrote earlier ...
you can't help someone who doesn't ask for your help.


WendyDarling wrote:I get your horse and chick analogies,


In the chick analogy ... at some point the chick must become aware of it's "want" to survive ... not it's "need" to survive.

WendyDarling wrote:but these unwise folks are ruining the planet and each other without conscience. Is it God's fault or their own? Mankind must assume the responsibility for Mankind's behaviors.


Forgive me Wendy ... for me ... mankind cannot be held responsible for the missing link(s)/information/knowledge ... the fact that mankind makes choices in the absence of full knowledge is noble ... pragmatic. Sure some choices don't appear to be so smart ... mankind is a work in progress.

WendyDarling wrote:Now, what's the deal with the Devil? Is he a disease?


For me ... simply the underlying cause of a lot of wasted human energy and effort.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:40 am

tom,

"It's time for Mankind to grow up," calls the Earth Rooster(cousin of the fire rooster), "playtime is near over." That is my message.

Those that lose close to if not all traces of their humanity is caused by what? I have always thought it the slippery slope analogy, but I don't know if that covers absolute injustices. Have you never felt evil?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:00 am

Wendy ... I encourage you ... and others ... to seek the "bright side" ... "the beauty".

Sure the above approach doesn't make the "ugly" go away ... but it is much more fun ... and perhaps even much more productive ... than wallowing in the manure with the pigs ... so to speak. :-)
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:07 am

More emerging thoughts ...

in dwelling on the "bright side" ... the "beauty" ... perhaps we empower it ... fuel it's growth.

If true ... the opposite is also true ... in dwelling on the "ugly" ... we empower it ... fuel it's growth.

I'm wondering if quantum physics ... particle physics ... is confirming the same reality. Hmmm!
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:24 am

tom wrote
in dwelling on the "bright side" ... the "beauty" ... perhaps we empower it ... fuel it's growth.

If true ... the opposite is also true ... in dwelling on the "ugly" ... we empower it ... fuel it's growth.


That's informal prayer, tom. Who is answering the negative prayers, wishes?

Like I've already said, Mankind cannot keep living in denial of his destructive behaviors (even if they begin as thought forms), consequences are upon us. Man needs to take notice not only of what is pleasant, but what is not so pleasant as well for only when we are responsible for both forms, from constructive to destructive and back again, can a lasting metamorphosis occur.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:53 am

WendyDarling wrote:Like I've already said, Mankind cannot keep living in denial of his destructive behaviors (even if they begin as thought forms), consequences are upon us.


Man has done a pretty good job so far ... living in denial that is :D

WendyDarling wrote:Man needs to take notice not only of what is pleasant, but what is not so pleasant as well for only when we are responsible for both forms, from constructive to destructive and back again, can a lasting metamorphosis occur.


Wendy ... you may be introducing the dialectic "Unity of Opposites" here ... constructive to destructive and back again :-)
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:01 am

More emerging thoughts ...

Empirical evidence consistently confirms the "travel" from constructive phase ... to destructive phase eg. the Dark Ages to the Renaissance.

An ancient Chinese sage labelled this "Reversion of the Extremes"

Perhaps mankind's ongoing metamorphosis is the "fruit" of these alternating phases.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:12 am

Wendy ... you may have just "sparked" the fusion of religion(spirituality) ... philosophy ... and science.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:09 am

tom,

You don't say? One more phase is all that's needed, no more going backwards is necessary if people would just "evolve."

Attention baby chicks, it's time to grow, honest.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:53 pm

Empirical evidence consistently confirms the "travel" from constructive phase ... to destructive phase eg. the Dark Ages to the Renaissance.
You're saying that Renaissance was destructive and Dark ages was constructive?

Most people would disagree with those characterizations.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:19 pm

We humans exist in a mesocosm, a middle ground between microcosm and macrocosm. From this middle ground, and by virtue of wanting to know all that exists, we have invented microscope and telescope. We are enclosed in the mesocosm because of the limitations of our senses. Yet we yearn to know more than our senses can reveal to us. Thus we have religion and science. I'd say religion is the second zeitgeist in the evolution of human memes. The first was the primitive, second the religious, third the philosophical and fourth the scientific and technological. All of this evolution owes greatly to the human desire to know, which may be God within, helping us though our stages of development. If the planet can survive our human adolescence, we may see a glorious future of things to know and feel.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:00 pm

phyllo wrote:
Empirical evidence consistently confirms the "travel" from constructive phase ... to destructive phase eg. the Dark Ages to the Renaissance.
You're saying that Renaissance was destructive and Dark ages was constructive?

Most people would disagree with those characterizations.


Phyllo ... I remember a test from grade 8 ... all true or false questions ... that was about 54 years ago ... actually I only remember one question from the test ...
days grow longer in the winter and shorter in the summer ... true or false


Being the smart ass I was at that age I quickly answered "false" ... you see I didn't realize the operative word was "grow"

The Dark Ages laid the foundation for the Renaissance ... ergo ... constructive

The Renaissance laid the foundation for the destruction of (insert here) ... ergo ... destructive
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:22 pm

God is evident in the yearning of the cosmos to know itself. This yearning is an evolved concern from organisms whose brains have reached a stage of self-consciousness.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:47 pm

I know what it feels like to die.

My theory is, we are soldiers from a future utopia, but some meddling backwards time traveller did something wrong, so we have to change the past and go to this shithole known as 2000's era to stop something from happening (or cause something to happen that didn't happen.)

The only possible way to time travel is through Consciousness, so we may be from the future and using a consciousness time-travel device to enter the past.
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby Amorphos » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:04 pm

Kriswest wrote:Perhaps species takes precedent over individual.


And all species are replaced by the next development, so how can it be about species either? Secondly, species are not sentient and it doesn’t matter what happens to them, it only matter about what’s experienced by individuals [if at all].

What should God do?


If he said hello at least we would all know he exists. Perhaps divinity doesn’t want us to >know<, as that would affect outcomes, and how we think about the world. In other words divinity would be interfering, and if one were an inventor or artist, you would want to think you done that achievement and not have it taken away from you. So maybe its the same in all cases, our efforts are our efforts and achievements.

Is there any suffering in the life cycle of the butterfly?


For some definitely yes, because some species clearly kill the previous life-form [caterpillar] when coming out of the chrysalis stage.

God is evident in the yearning of the cosmos to know itself.


Good point, in fact I think the cosmos exists such to be realised. So that yearning is prior to cosmos.
The truth is naked,
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Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: Suffering and gods invisibility

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:28 pm

On a dark night, Kindled in love and yearnings - oh, happy chance!

I went forth without being observed. My house now being at rest.

In darkness and secure. By the secret ladder, disguised - oh, happy chance!

In darkness and in concealment. My house being now at rest.


St John of the Cross "Dark Night of the Soul"
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