Let's think this through ... God

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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:35 pm

The Abrahamic-God seems unnatural to me. I can't see a God that is alive, when all signs point to entropy throughout the Universe.

My deities and God are completely natural.

As George Carlin said in one his specials, "I can actually see the Sun."
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:41 pm

The Abrahamic-God seems unnatural to me. I can't see a God that is alive, when all signs point to entropy throughout the Universe.
What does entropy have to do with it?
As George Carlin said in one his specials, "I can actually see the Sun."
I can't see air. I've never seen an electron. :confusion-scratchheadblue:
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:07 pm

phyllo wrote:What does entropy have to do with it?


Why would the God of the Bible create a Universe that is eventually is going to decay into near-nothingness? Or the fact that most planets have virtually no life on them? A Biblical-God wouldn't do that, therefore that God couldn't exist. (I agree with the thread-creator, but I phrased it differently.) Also see the problem of evil (if God created existence with evil he cannot be benevolent and if he can't abolish evil he cannot be omnipotent) and the problem of potency (could God create something that even it couldn't move?). My solutions to those problems is as such: evil is ultimately caused by entropy. Nature is naturally (pun intended) more evil than good, but we are the beacon of light from a vast space of entropy and nothingness. As far as the problem with potency, there are only certain natural forces that deities and God can perform. The question of whether God (or deities) could move something that they created to not be able to move doesn't really apply to them.

I can't see air. I've never seen an electron. :confusion-scratchheadblue:


But did I ever claim that air or elections are God?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Why would the God of the Bible create a Universe that is eventually is going to decay into near-nothingness? Or the fact that most planets have virtually no life on them? A Biblical-God wouldn't do that, therefore that God couldn't exist.
This is the argument : if I was god, then I wouldn't things that way. Therefore, god does not exist.
Also see the problem of evil (if God created existence with evil he cannot be benevolent and if he can't abolish evil he cannot be omnipotent) and the problem of potency (could God create something that even it couldn't move?). My solutions to those problems is as such: evil is ultimately caused by entropy.
But entropy is not evil. And I don't see how it could be said to cause evil. :-?
As far as the problem with potency, there are only certain natural forces that deities and God can perform. The question of whether God (or deities) could move something that they created to not be able to move doesn't really apply to them.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I can't see air. I've never seen an electron. :confusion-scratchheadblue:



But did I ever claim that air or elections are God?
Oh, come on. Carlin was saying that God doesn't exist because we can't see God ... or some variation on that idea.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:46 pm

entropy
noun
1.
Thermodynamics.
(on a macroscopic scale) a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.
(in statistical mechanics) a measure of the randomness of the microscopic constituents of a thermodynamic system. Symbol: S.
2.
(in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
3.
(in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature (heat death)
4.
a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.

extropy
noun
the theory that cultural and technological development will expand indefinitely and in an orderly progressive manner throughout the universe, the tendency of systems to grow more organized; also written Extropy

Extropy cannot exist without entropy, but if only entropy existed there would be no chance of life, creation, or organized society. I consider entropy evil because it causes chaos and reduces the potential of our society.

But he was talking about the Abrahamic-God, not the Sun. He also said he worships, but doesn't pray to the Sun. In a sense he treats the Sun like a deity by that regard.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:56 pm

I also have access to a dictionary. :D
Extropy cannot exist without entropy, but if only entropy existed there would be no chance of life, creation, or organized society. I consider entropy evil because it causes chaos and reduces the potential of our society.
entropy-extropy
Duality of the universe.
But he was talking about the Abrahamic-God, not the Sun.
Do you still not understand my point?

He can't see the Abrahamic God ... so what? Lots of things which exist cannot be directly seen.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:58 pm

phyllo wrote:He can't see the Abrahamic God ... so what? Lots of things which exist cannot be directly seen.


But they can be observed. You assume there is air because you feel wind when you go outside. The idea of an atom and the electron was hypothesized since the days of Plato. I mean, there's even machines out there that supposedly can measure if there is a ghost present in the room. (But that's not my point.)

My point is, the Abrahamic God has never been observed. People hearing voices in their head, writing it down on tablets, and then forcing people to turn on a dime doesn't work in the long run.

Also, God has changed his mind ... a lot. Newer religions (that aren't cults) picture God as more progressive and use modern science to back up their claims - something that older religions really can't do. A subjective God to me doesn't sound like a God at all. It is possible that a God could change their mind about the nature of reality, but whatever reality that may be always fits with the groups that have the most power. Coincidence? I think not.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:14 pm

But they can be observed.
That's not what Carlin said in the quote.
My point is, the Abrahamic God has never been observed.
Lots of people disagree. They either claim they had a direct experience of God or that they were able to indirectly observe God by examining the world.
Also, God has changed his mind ... a lot.
You mean that people have changed their minds about God.

They changed their minds about science as well. :D
A subjective God to me doesn't sound like a God at all. It is possible that a God could change their mind about the nature of reality, but whatever reality that may be always fits with the groups that have the most power. Coincidence? I think not.
But Christianity was a fringe belief which grew and surpassed the Greek and Roman religions. What does that say about having power?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:16 pm

phyllo wrote:But Christianity was a fringe belief which grew to surpass the Greek and Roman religions. What does that say about having power?


Emperor Constantine was probably the only reason why the majority of people on Earth are either Christian or Muslim.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:20 pm

Mackerni wrote:
phyllo wrote:But Christianity was a fringe belief which grew to surpass the Greek and Roman religions. What does that say about having power?


Emperor Constantine was probably the only reason why the majority of people on Earth are either Christian or Muslim.
Christianity had to have mass appeal or it would not have succeeded. One emperor can't force a religion on a population.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:19 pm

Constantine wasn't raised Christian. He converted.

ex·tro·py
ˈekstrəpē/
noun
noun: extropy

the pseudoscientific principle that life will expand indefinitely and in an orderly, progressive way throughout the entire universe by the means of human intelligence and technology.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:04 pm

phyllo wrote:Christianity had to have mass appeal or it would not have succeeded. One emperor can't force a religion on a population.


Why, yes, he could. He wasn't a president or a prime minister, he was an emperor. Around the time of his death, he persecuted many non-Christians and set the standard for Christendom at the time.

James S Saint wrote:Constantine wasn't raised Christian. He converted.


Yes, I know that, but he was also superstitious. He made a bet with God if he won a battle he would become Christian. He won the battle and soon Christianity, once considered a cult became the dominant religion of the Holy Roman Empire.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Poor guy didn't give much credit to himself, did he?
It was probably just the bet which spurred him on to do what he wanted to do in the first place.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:38 pm

Why, yes, he could. He wasn't a president or a prime minister, he was an emperor. Around the time of his death, he persecuted many non-Christians and set the standard for Christendom at the time.
Yeah, opponents of Christianity love those myths ... Nobody ever wanted Christianity. There was no Jesus. It was all a huge government conspiracy. Everybody has been manipulated and brainwashed. Etc.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
phyllo
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:10 pm

Wiki wrote:According to Lactantius, Constantine followed his father in following a tolerant policy towards Christianity. Although not yet a Christian, he probably judged it a more sensible policy than open persecution,[85] and a way to distinguish himself from the "great persecutor", Galerius.[86] Constantine decreed a formal end to persecution, and returned to Christians all they had lost during the persecutions.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25310
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:24 pm

phyllo wrote:[Yeah, opponents of Christianity love those myths ... Nobody ever wanted Christianity. There was no Jesus. It was all a huge government conspiracy. Everybody has been manipulated and brainwashed. Etc.


I don't believe that. Didn't you just say that Christianity has to have some basic appeal to people? Having appeal and being brainwashed are very different things.

James S Saint wrote:
Wiki wrote:According to Lactantius, Constantine followed his father in following a tolerant policy towards Christianity. Although not yet a Christian, he probably judged it a more sensible policy than open persecution,[85] and a way to distinguish himself from the "great persecutor", Galerius.[86] Constantine decreed a formal end to persecution, and returned to Christians all they had lost during the persecutions.


Okay, fine, you have a point. Constantine only allowed Christianity to be practiced in his kingdom. Christianity had to have some appeal to the masses or otherwise it wouldn't have been practiced for so long. I mean, anyone who can save you from your wrongdoings by following an example of a "perfect" person must be appealing to some. Judaism is, "do this, don't do that, because God says so." Christianity is, "follow Jesus and you can do anything you want after that!"
"Anybody got a problem with the way I live? I don't want to go to Heaven if I can't get in!"
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:42 pm

Mackerni wrote:
phyllo wrote:[Yeah, opponents of Christianity love those myths ... Nobody ever wanted Christianity. There was no Jesus. It was all a huge government conspiracy. Everybody has been manipulated and brainwashed. Etc.


I don't believe that. Didn't you just say that Christianity has to have some basic appeal to people? Having appeal and being brainwashed are very different things.

Phyllo was displaying sarcastism.

Mackerni wrote:Christianity is, "follow Jesus and you can do anything you want after that!"

There is no "after that". Following means doing what he said .. continually .. through death.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25310
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:07 pm

There are a number of appealing ideas in Christianity. For starters :

- a God who cares about you and loves you
- perfect justice
- eternal life
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
phyllo
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Posts: 9920
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am
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