Let's think this through ... God

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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:33 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:You asked me what I meant.

You're stuck on discipline though...

Try disciplining yourself to not hurt others , if that's the only thing you got from my posts

..nor that. :-?



I actually spent a lot of time thinking about the posts I replied to you with... This reply is very thoughtless and rude in context of the thread
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:36 pm

Ecmandu wrote:I actually spent a lot of time thinking about the posts I replied to you with...

Sorry that you spent so much time studying the wrong posts.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:38 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I actually spent a lot of time thinking about the posts I replied to you with...

Sorry that you spent so much time studying the wrong posts.


James, being thoughtful and not rude is at a minimum, sending a hyperlink to the post in question.

I've inadvertently missed posts several times on ILP
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Uccisore » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:42 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Oh, you haven't read my new stuff...

No, what I mean, is say, you become celibate or chaste, you're hurting good people who want to experience the bond of sexuality with you. If you're sexual, you're hurting all the good people who can't have sex with you because of imposed limitations.

If you become president, you hurt everyone else who wanted to be president, if you don't become president, you hurt all the people who wanted you to be president.

If you are homeless, you hurt everyone who this makes uncomfortable, if you have a home, you hurt everyone who wants that home.

Basically, the more you see life clearly, with sharp resolution, you become keenly aware, that no matter what you do here, you're hurting someone ...

This doesn't excuse hurting those people either ...

The goal , the real game in life, not the distractions, is to solve this problem once and for all, and not just lolly gag through life, living a meaningless life.



The solution to this problem is to realize that the definition of 'hurt' has always been flaky, and to ditch utilitarianism forever and move on to something reasonable.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:58 pm

Uccisore wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Oh, you haven't read my new stuff...

No, what I mean, is say, you become celibate or chaste, you're hurting good people who want to experience the bond of sexuality with you. If you're sexual, you're hurting all the good people who can't have sex with you because of imposed limitations.

If you become president, you hurt everyone else who wanted to be president, if you don't become president, you hurt all the people who wanted you to be president.

If you are homeless, you hurt everyone who this makes uncomfortable, if you have a home, you hurt everyone who wants that home.

Basically, the more you see life clearly, with sharp resolution, you become keenly aware, that no matter what you do here, you're hurting someone ...

This doesn't excuse hurting those people either ...

The goal , the real game in life, not the distractions, is to solve this problem once and for all, and not just lolly gag through life, living a meaningless life.



The solution to this problem is to realize that the definition of 'hurt' has always been flaky, and to ditch utilitarianism forever and move on to something reasonable.


Self reports of hurt are the ONLY thing that's not flaky. Axioms from this are also not flaky.

You live in flatland.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Uccisore » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:06 am

Ecmandu wrote:Self reports of hurt are the ONLY thing that's not flaky. Axioms from this are also not flaky.

You live in flatland.


You demonstrated it yourself: everybody is hurting everybody all the time, regardless of if they mean to, regardless of what they do or don't do. All that means is that hurt (or your definition of it) is useless in determining the rightness or wrongness of our actions. Ought implies can.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:54 pm

Uccisore wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Self reports of hurt are the ONLY thing that's not flaky. Axioms from this are also not flaky.

You live in flatland.


You demonstrated it yourself: everybody is hurting everybody all the time, regardless of if they mean to, regardless of what they do or don't do. All that means is that hurt (or your definition of it) is useless in determining the rightness or wrongness of our actions. Ought implies can.


This goes back to James' couple posts about discipline... I asked him, "why don't you discipline yourself to not hurt others or be hurt by them (if you're so self righteous)?"

He ignored me.

Philosophic zombie universes are our ONLY option, and every second of every day is discipline for me to solve the only thing that makes our lives meaningful.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Uccisore » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:22 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Philosophic zombie universes are our ONLY option,


No, I just gave you the other option: reject your understanding of harm. That's not an option for you, for obvious reasons, but it's fine for the rest of us.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:17 pm

Uccisore wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Philosophic zombie universes are our ONLY option,


No, I just gave you the other option: reject your understanding of harm. That's not an option for you, for obvious reasons, but it's fine for the rest of us.


That's not what you said but ok...

Let's go with this from a person (you) with anti social personality disorder...

The BTK killer is now your friend, he LOVES you, says that to all his victims now!!!
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Uccisore » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:37 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Uccisore wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Philosophic zombie universes are our ONLY option,


No, I just gave you the other option: reject your understanding of harm. That's not an option for you, for obvious reasons, but it's fine for the rest of us.


That's not what you said but ok...

Let's go with this from a person (you) with anti social personality disorder...

The BTK killer is now your friend, he LOVES you, says that to all his victims now!!!


And this is what you get for trying to reason with a hostile, mentally disabled man on the internet. When will I ever learn?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:30 pm

This goes back to James' couple posts about discipline... I asked him, "why don't you discipline yourself to not hurt others or be hurt by them (if you're so self righteous)?"

He ignored me.


ecmandu,


I think that it is possible that if someone IS self-righteous, there might not be any true humility there and ergo there might be a lot of hurt on both sides unless the other party has thick skin and can easily detach.
Self-righteousness is certainly not necessarily moral or ethical...it can have its basis in egotism.

Even if we follow the golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - that wouldn't necessarily work either because many of us think and feel and interpret the world differently.
For instance, some like it when they are confronted in an honest way - others do not - so how would the golden rule work there. It would call for discernment and finesse and seeing the other person as he is ALSO.
Is it possible to never hurt others and at the same time not to hurt or de-value one-self or one's own life?
That may call for compromise by a person who actually knows himself and who doesn't feel less of a person or defeated by another's treatment or estimation of him.
There are some times when feeling it necessary to give another "more" does not mean that the other person has more taken away from him.


We can "discipline" (teach) ourselves to try not to hurt others if it is humanly possible without sacrificing our own "real" needs IF we can do that but perhaps what you're asking is that people become sacrificial lambs to spare others hurt or that they become sacrificial lambs in order that the party of the first part may always gain what he feels he needs and desires.
That thinking is just wishful thinking and is not based in reality and honestly, insofar as the golden rule is concerned, that kind of thinking breaks the back of the golden rule - since there is no "we" - only an "I" there.


"He ignored me".


See how complicated it can be in knowing how not to hurt others?
Is it possible that what you took as being ignored by him was his way of not hurting you?
We all think differently and sometimes we "project" onto others.
I'm not saying that was the case but it might have been.
The golden rule cannot always apply. Nothing is black and white.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:29 pm

Uccisore,

Hostile? You're the most hostile person on ILP!!

That's one thing APD's never learn, when they talk about others they're only mostly talking to themselves about themselves.

Uccisore, assuming I even am in the schizoid spectrum... Personality disorders are considered worse than the schizoid spectrum. You talk like Donald Trump, no wonder you think he is Jesus.

Here's the deal Uccisore... You don't TRY to make the world better, and when others do, you become enraged.

It's actually hard trying to work out the details of philosophic zombie universes, on a scale you cannot comprehend.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:49 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous, you surprised me...

That was extremely well thought and worded


He means this:

Uccisore wrote:
iambiguous wrote:And what might that argument sound like? If a particular Christian philosopher starts with the assumption that God is omniscient, then how is that reconciled with human autonomy?


The same way as an argument beginning with omipotence, I would imagine. Philosophers who believe in libertarian free will tend to refer to omnipotence as 'having the maximal degree of power' - the most power any Being can have. Omniscience would be having the maximal degree of knowledge. So for example, maybe God doesn't know what it's like to be a bat, because as Nagel pointed out, it's impossible for anything but a bat to know. Philosophers will argue about whether or not knowing the future imposes on being's free will. Plantinga wrote quite a bit about the interaction between devine foreknowledge and free will. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free- ... knowledge/

So you could argue that God simply doesn't know what free creatures will do, as a consequence of him giving them free will. Or you could argue that God does know what free creatures will do, but this doesn't make them any less free.


Yes, you could argue this; but my point above involves taking these generally abstract, scholastic assessments of the relationship between an omniscient God and mere mortals, and situating it out in the world of actual human interactions.

Omniscient: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

To argue then that an all-knowing God does not know whether Jane will abort or not about her unborn baby, or that Jack will or will not report her to the authorities, seems to ascribe the meaning of the word "omniscient" to God as but one more manifestation of His "mysterious ways". And, of course, the faithful can always fall back on that to rationalize anything with respect to Him.

Similarly if a bat could only be as God intended it to be how could this omniscient God not know what it is like to be a bat? It is as though this all-powerful entity set life itself into motion such that it would evolve on its own into minds [ours] able to probe these questions self-consciously.

In other words, whatever that means.

And [thus] we are still back to square one: connecting all of these endless "intellectual" and "theoretical" speculations to an actual extant God.

A God, the God, your God.

And not theirs.

Or, sure, maybe it's just me. My inability to reconcile the idea of an omniscient God able to be the "perfect predictor" with mere mortals able to choose behaviors that would be both "free" and wholly [necessarily] in sync with God's prediction of what it will be.

And what then is the limit to that which mortals are able to think, feel and behave autonomously?

Are they able to prove the existence of God if God does not want His existence able to be proven? Are they able to teach themselves to behave in such a manner that God is not aware of it? Can they discover how to trick God? To defy God with impunity?

As long as there is a gap between what mere mortals think, feel and do and God's awareness of this, it would seem to make this relationship considerably more problematic.

For example, am I "free" to not believe in God? Or, as some Christians [among others] insists, "free" or not, will my refusal [inability] to accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior result [necessarily] in eternal damnation?

And [of course] always this: with so much at stake how/why is it that God makes answering these crucial questions so seemingly elusive?


What say you, Uccisore?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Objectivists: Like shooting turds in a barrel.

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:21 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Here's the deal Uccisore... You don't TRY to make the world better, and when others do, you become enraged.

He desperately WANTS for the world to be a better place. When he encounters one of those apparently making it worse despite his efforts to prevent it, his frustration turns to rage.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:38 pm

He desperately WANTS for the world to be a better place. When he encounters one of those apparently making it worse despite his efforts to prevent it, his frustration turns to rage.
Sounds immature
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:20 pm

phyllo wrote:
He desperately WANTS for the world to be a better place. When he encounters one of those apparently making it worse despite his efforts to prevent it, his frustration turns to rage.
Sounds immature

Around here, who doesn't?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:12 pm

Uccisore made my point more than anyone, and because of James' comment to defend Uccisore, I also have had a really revealing look into James' psychology.

When I had that post about not being able to do anything without hurting anyone, it's not only perfectly logical, it's also perfectly emotional ...

What this reveals is that Uccisore and James have logical and emotional handicaps with real world consequences.

Uccisore blew it off by saying "you need to redefine hurt then". Everyone who is sensitive knows that emotional pain is worse than physical pain, but apparently Uccisore doesn't ... Speaks volumes, upon volumes , upon volumes.

Obviously the creator would know it created a no win situation.

We can, like Uccisore, go on for days about what the creator doesn't know, but this is so blatant and obvious, that it defies any possible explanation how bad can be good. Unless you as a human being, are bad to the core.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:32 am

Ecmandu wrote:BLAH BLAH BLAH

God doesn't exist


What about deism? In deism God exists but doesn't inter-mingle in the Universe's affairs. I am a variant of deism, specifically panendeism - which states that there is a God inside the Universe (but the Universe itself) that created the Universe but is natural and doesn't or can't interfere with our mortal affairs.

I also believe in henotheism. In my conception of henotheism, there are things inside the Universe that "glue" everything itself. I'm not talking about the Universal natural however, like the higgs-boson particle, gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces, or electromagnetism. I'm talking about the physical things that arose from those forces. Stars, galactic black holes, superclusters, that allows the existence of life and all we see fit in the Universe. This is why I venerate the Sun, for it directly involved for everything the Earth has.

So, in my conceptions of God, one God exists and there are many deities also inside the Universe. They are all very real.

What do you say to this?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:12 pm

Mackerni,

To that, I say simply, it is impossible to create the whole universe and not have an effect upon it.

Actually, you are the only effect upon it...

We're talking about zero point here, not human creations.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:28 am

Ecmandu wrote:Mackerni,

To that, I say simply, it is impossible to create the whole universe and not have an effect upon it.


What if the multiverse created the Universe, developed the natural forces of which it would work from, but then just after its creation left it to its own?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:21 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Mackerni,

To that, I say simply, it is impossible to create the whole universe and not have an effect upon it.


What if the multiverse created the Universe, developed the natural forces of which it would work from, but then just after its creation left it to its own?


To that, I think you are trying to play word games.

Zero point creation would create not only the multiverse, but it's ability to converge to a universe.

Remember, in zero point creation, you created everything!! Not just something.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:18 pm

Ecmandu wrote:To that, I think you are trying to play word games.

Zero point creation would create not only the multiverse, but it's ability to converge to a universe.

Remember, in zero point creation, you created everything!! Not just something.


What is"zero point" creation?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:07 pm

Mackerni wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:To that, I think you are trying to play word games.

Zero point creation would create not only the multiverse, but it's ability to converge to a universe.

Remember, in zero point creation, you created everything!! Not just something.


What is"zero point" creation?


Creation ex nihilo, you created something that has never been before.
Do unto yourself and others as you'd do unto yourself if you were them (and you) - Ecmandu's Rule.

Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

The biggest problem in life... That more than one person wants the same thing! Solve this, and you have beaten the demon of life!
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Creation ex nihilo, you created something that has never been before.


You do realize that deists believe that God did create everything inside the Universe, but left it alone to its own accord after it was made, right? Zero-point creationism still doesn't mean the deity is directly personal in any way, just that it had a hand in the creation of the Universe. Annddd ... believing in panendeism means that something natural created the Universe, not something that resembles an Abrahamic-God.

Let's just agree to disagree, alright?
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Re: Let's think this through ... God

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:22 pm

Is God "unnatural"? :evilfun:
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