Let's think this through ... God

You do realize that deists believe that God did create everything inside the Universe, but left it alone to its own accord after it was made, right? Zero-point creationism still doesn’t mean the deity is directly personal in any way, just that it had a hand in the creation of the Universe. Annddd … believing in panendeism means that something natural created the Universe, not something that resembles an Abrahamic-God.

Let’s just agree to disagree, alright?

Is God “unnatural”? :evilfun:

The Abrahamic-God seems unnatural to me. I can’t see a God that is alive, when all signs point to entropy throughout the Universe.

My deities and God are completely natural.

As George Carlin said in one his specials, “I can actually see the Sun.”

What does entropy have to do with it?

I can’t see air. I’ve never seen an electron. :confusion-scratchheadblue:

Why would the God of the Bible create a Universe that is eventually is going to decay into near-nothingness? Or the fact that most planets have virtually no life on them? A Biblical-God wouldn’t do that, therefore that God couldn’t exist. (I agree with the thread-creator, but I phrased it differently.) Also see the problem of evil (if God created existence with evil he cannot be benevolent and if he can’t abolish evil he cannot be omnipotent) and the problem of potency (could God create something that even it couldn’t move?). My solutions to those problems is as such: evil is ultimately caused by entropy. Nature is naturally (pun intended) more evil than good, but we are the beacon of light from a vast space of entropy and nothingness. As far as the problem with potency, there are only certain natural forces that deities and God can perform. The question of whether God (or deities) could move something that they created to not be able to move doesn’t really apply to them.

But did I ever claim that air or elections are God?

This is the argument : if I was god, then I wouldn’t things that way. Therefore, god does not exist.

But entropy is not evil. And I don’t see how it could be said to cause evil. :confused:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Oh, come on. Carlin was saying that God doesn’t exist because we can’t see God … or some variation on that idea.

entropy
noun
1.
Thermodynamics.
(on a macroscopic scale) a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.
(in statistical mechanics) a measure of the randomness of the microscopic constituents of a thermodynamic system. Symbol: S.
2.
(in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
3.
(in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature (heat death)
4.
a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.

extropy
noun
the theory that cultural and technological development will expand indefinitely and in an orderly progressive manner throughout the universe, the tendency of systems to grow more organized; also written Extropy

Extropy cannot exist without entropy, but if only entropy existed there would be no chance of life, creation, or organized society. I consider entropy evil because it causes chaos and reduces the potential of our society.

But he was talking about the Abrahamic-God, not the Sun. He also said he worships, but doesn’t pray to the Sun. In a sense he treats the Sun like a deity by that regard.

I also have access to a dictionary. :smiley:

entropy-extropy
Duality of the universe.

Do you still not understand my point?

He can’t see the Abrahamic God … so what? Lots of things which exist cannot be directly seen.

But they can be observed. You assume there is air because you feel wind when you go outside. The idea of an atom and the electron was hypothesized since the days of Plato. I mean, there’s even machines out there that supposedly can measure if there is a ghost present in the room. (But that’s not my point.)

My point is, the Abrahamic God has never been observed. People hearing voices in their head, writing it down on tablets, and then forcing people to turn on a dime doesn’t work in the long run.

Also, God has changed his mind … a lot. Newer religions (that aren’t cults) picture God as more progressive and use modern science to back up their claims - something that older religions really can’t do. A subjective God to me doesn’t sound like a God at all. It is possible that a God could change their mind about the nature of reality, but whatever reality that may be always fits with the groups that have the most power. Coincidence? I think not.

That’s not what Carlin said in the quote.

Lots of people disagree. They either claim they had a direct experience of God or that they were able to indirectly observe God by examining the world.

You mean that people have changed their minds about God.

They changed their minds about science as well. :smiley:

But Christianity was a fringe belief which grew and surpassed the Greek and Roman religions. What does that say about having power?

Emperor Constantine was probably the only reason why the majority of people on Earth are either Christian or Muslim.

Christianity had to have mass appeal or it would not have succeeded. One emperor can’t force a religion on a population.

Constantine wasn’t raised Christian. He converted.

Why, yes, he could. He wasn’t a president or a prime minister, he was an emperor. Around the time of his death, he persecuted many non-Christians and set the standard for Christendom at the time.

Yes, I know that, but he was also superstitious. He made a bet with God if he won a battle he would become Christian. He won the battle and soon Christianity, once considered a cult became the dominant religion of the Holy Roman Empire.

Poor guy didn’t give much credit to himself, did he?
It was probably just the bet which spurred him on to do what he wanted to do in the first place.

Yeah, opponents of Christianity love those myths … Nobody ever wanted Christianity. There was no Jesus. It was all a huge government conspiracy. Everybody has been manipulated and brainwashed. Etc.

I don’t believe that. Didn’t you just say that Christianity has to have some basic appeal to people? Having appeal and being brainwashed are very different things.

Okay, fine, you have a point. Constantine only allowed Christianity to be practiced in his kingdom. Christianity had to have some appeal to the masses or otherwise it wouldn’t have been practiced for so long. I mean, anyone who can save you from your wrongdoings by following an example of a “perfect” person must be appealing to some. Judaism is, “do this, don’t do that, because God says so.” Christianity is, “follow Jesus and you can do anything you want after that!”

Phyllo was displaying sarcastism.

There is no “after that”. Following means doing what he said … continually … through death.

There are a number of appealing ideas in Christianity. For starters :

  • a God who cares about you and loves you
  • perfect justice
  • eternal life