Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers?

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Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers?

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:06 am

They just don't like spiritual definitions of any type given to them by mankind.

Their idea of a God, were they to believe in the way that believers do, is much grander than what can be talked about, much more godly than anything that could be preached.

They simply don't bow down to a cheap version. They rail against having to hear this pale imitation.

In their mind God is so great, it can't be conceived of by a mind. Which makes them the biggest believers. Of the trap door in the back variety. Kicking and screaming while being dragged to some heavenly state.

Sorry to offend any atheist who completely disagrees. Maybe nothing does suit you. Not many people like the magician who reveals how the trick is done. But for the atheist who is open these ideas, I hope I've echoed a secret feeling of relief.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby surreptitious57 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:34 am


I am an apatheist so do not care if God exists or what form he takes
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:39 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
I am an apatheist so do not care if God exists or what form he takes


Cool. I met a guy one time who told me he worships Satan. I bought him some pop-tarts. No lie.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:44 am

nano-bug wrote:They just don't like spiritual definitions of any type given to them by mankind.

Their idea of a God, were they to believe in the way that believers do, is much grander than what can be talked about, much more godly than anything that could be preached.

They simply don't bow down to a cheap version. They rail against having to hear this pale imitation.

In their mind God is so great, it can't be conceived of by a mind. Which makes them the biggest believers. Of the trap door in the back variety. Kicking and screaming while being dragged to some heavenly state.

Sorry to offend any atheist who completely disagrees. Maybe nothing does suit you. Not many people like the magician who reveals how the trick is done. But for the atheist who is open these ideas, I hope I've echoed a secret feeling of relief.


K: I usually don't like fighting these battles but you are wrong on so many levels,
I need to say something.... there is no god.... it is not about belief or wishing or
hoping or anything else, there is simply no god, like there is no unicorns
or Santa Claus or anything else like this......god is not great, it is simple
non existent....
I searched for god for 40 years and never found hide or hair of anything
resembling god.....it is just a feel good technique by people to have
better self esteem.....you be better off taking pills or smoking something
than believe in non existing beings....

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:30 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
nano-bug wrote:They just don't like spiritual definitions of any type given to them by mankind.

Their idea of a God, were they to believe in the way that believers do, is much grander than what can be talked about, much more godly than anything that could be preached.

They simply don't bow down to a cheap version. They rail against having to hear this pale imitation.

In their mind God is so great, it can't be conceived of by a mind. Which makes them the biggest believers. Of the trap door in the back variety. Kicking and screaming while being dragged to some heavenly state.

Sorry to offend any atheist who completely disagrees. Maybe nothing does suit you. Not many people like the magician who reveals how the trick is done. But for the atheist who is open these ideas, I hope I've echoed a secret feeling of relief.


K: I usually don't like fighting these battles but you are wrong on so many levels,
I need to say something.... there is no god.... it is not about belief or wishing or
hoping or anything else, there is simply no god, like there is no unicorns
or Santa Claus or anything else like this......god is not great, it is simple
non existent....
I searched for god for 40 years and never found hide or hair of anything
resembling god.....it is just a feel good technique by people to have
better self esteem.....you be better off taking pills or smoking something
than believe in non existing beings....

Kropotkin


Another way I'd say that, there are no believers. There is no god when god is all things. Now this is what I believe, when I talk about it. However the fact that we are both the ocean floor, the sake of metaphors, and I'm talking to you like we're islands, is a breach of the faith I just professed. It changes under the microscope. It is possible to believe in god and think the bible is rubbish.

If I asked you what Santa Claus or a unicorn looked like you'd be able to describe them. Maybe that's a bad example, because I certainly do not think of god as old gray beard man. Some people don't believe in aliens. I am someone who is seen spaceships. But I remember what it was like before I saw them. I was on the fence about the possibility of them even existing, knowing damn well that people like to photograph light hoaxes. If you haven't seen spaceships I don't expect you to believe me. I just know I feel good about possibilities. That maybe unicorns exist in parallel worlds.

Anyway you seem to be doing just fine without a belief in God. And you don't need me to tell you that. Hopefully no ruffled feathers.

Irony of ironies, I felt God during Buddhist meditation. That is what I understand God to be. A feeling. A supreme goodness.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:48 pm

Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:32 pm

I looked inside. Supreme goodness as a whole was there.

I still haven't traveled to the west coast.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:36 pm

Atheists are like a evolution from the beliebers but not a final evolution.

Atheists don't like gambling or odds, if you list a bunch of OBE's and give them evidence demons are real, they are like...Doesn't happen 100% of the time, there is a 10% chance there is a global conspiracy that all OBE's are lies, there is a chance afterlife experiences were made by a global conspiracy of liars or all in the brain, If I don't see it with my own eyes I don't believe it because I need something to happen 100% of the time, like gravity, because my name is Thomas and I am a Doubter, a Doubting Thomas.

Now lets say that God is fake and doesn't exist. Atheism still doesn't give a satisfying solution of how consciousness came to be, why it is in this body, and where it goes in the future.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:38 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?



K: I have often asked believers this one question: OK, if you believe in God, where
is the evidence? Show me proof of any kind, that god exists.......
I'll wait............................................................................

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:50 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Atheists are like a evolution from the beliebers but not a final evolution.

Atheists don't like gambling or odds, if you list a bunch of OBE's and give them evidence demons are real, they are like...Doesn't happen 100% of the time, there is a 10% chance there is a global conspiracy that all OBE's are lies, there is a chance afterlife experiences were made by a global conspiracy of liars or all in the brain, If I don't see it with my own eyes I don't believe it because I need something to happen 100% of the time, like gravity, because my name is Thomas and I am a Doubter, a Doubting Thomas.

Now lets say that God is fake and doesn't exist. Atheism still doesn't give a satisfying solution of how consciousness came to be, why it is in this body, and where it goes in the future.



Okay they don't like gambling or odds, their preference. Why do I like the music I do, I don't know.

It does sound like you are at least holding consciousness up to the light. What's wrong with that light merging with more a more wholesome light?

I get that you don't want to be taken for a sucker by liars and global conspirators. Seeing life as the miracle is a way to end the search for categorical miracles witnessed by one's own eyes.

IMO, evolution isn't different from a god who never rested on the seventh marketplace day and who is still creating moment to moment. When I get tired of the preaching stink of mankind spiritualists, I like to think of a cavemen who has no words, who can only point at the sky with a pure wonderment that he can't share verbally. He knows he his made of stars, he just can't use that against other stars.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:57 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?



K: I have often asked believers this one question: OK, if you believe in God, where
is the evidence? Show me proof of any kind, that god exists.......
I'll wait............................................................................

Kropotkin

Show me proof that subatomic particles exist.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:36 pm

Ierrellus: Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?[/quote]


K: I have often asked believers this one question: OK, if you believe in God, where
is the evidence? Show me proof of any kind, that god exists.......
I'll wait............................................................................


I: Show me proof that subatomic particles exist.

K: The modern world operates with the use of subatomic particles.....
for example, without subatomic atoms, you don't have microwaves and
nuclear weapons and X-ray machines.... without the use and understanding
subatomic atoms, the modern world doesn't exist.....

but say that isn't enough for you, ok, go to an accelerator,
CERN or I live very close to the Stanford accelerator, i drive over it
every time I go south on 280, and they will show you subatomic
atoms with every collision... they take pictures of those collisions
and I have seen those pictures as you could if you simply use your computer,
which functions because of use and knowledge of subatomic atoms.......

You might say that is not enough proof... well you can't experience
subatomic atoms physically, but you can see their effect in our world
and beyond, so yes, subatomic atoms exist because we can use science
to predict their presence and we use science to create uses for them,
we use science in subatomic atoms to model and understand the
universe..... without subatomic atoms, all our science and technology
would fail and given the successful state of science and technology, it is clear
our understanding of the universe is a correct one and that understanding
includes subatomic atoms......

you might say, but that is not enough, I want to physically see subatomic
atoms, you can, just google it and you will see pictures of it as it is
split by other atoms in accelerators like CERN and Stanford... not enough,
can't help you there as then you are denying the obvious whereas
you can't show me any proof of god, of any kind, and it doesn't matter
how much you believe if you have no proof of any kind.........

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:48 pm

Atheism implies the absence of something so really there is no belief whatsoever.

Nonbelief yes but no belief is implied.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:48 pm

P.K.,
You have provided me with a set of physical examples as evidence of sub atomic particles; yet you cannot seem to imagine that, given certain conditions, the existence of God might be proved. For anyone who is pure in heart and poor in spirit God can be experienced. You are born with a trinite psyche--body, mind, spirit. Looking for God though a single aspect of this trinity will not yield God's presence. Hence the physical/mental way of seeing may provide me with evidence of subatomic particles, but cannot envisage God except as a cultural phenomenon that does not even describe the best of human morality. If you honestly search for God with all your being, God will find you.
Who is to say that God has not been looking for you for 40 years, but can't be seen for your mindset?
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:26 pm

Ierrellus wrote:P.K.,
You have provided me with a set of physical examples as evidence of sub atomic particles; yet you cannot seem to imagine that, given certain conditions, the existence of God might be proved. For anyone who is pure in heart and poor in spirit God can be experienced. You are born with a trinite psyche--body, mind, spirit. Looking for God though a single aspect of this trinity will not yield God's presence. Hence the physical/mental way of seeing may provide me with evidence of subatomic particles, but cannot envisage God except as a cultural phenomenon that does not even describe the best of human morality. If you honestly search for God with all your being, God will find you.
Who is to say that God has not been looking for you for 40 years, but can't be seen for your mindset?



K: and you say "under certain conditions, the existence of god might be proved"......
under certain conditions which are?..........

believers tell me if I "believe" in god, I will then have the proof for god.....
As neil degrasse Tyson is noted for saying, you don't have to believe in science
for it to work, it works and exists, regardless of whether you believe in it or not.....
science is independent of any belief in it.... it exists regardless if we believe in it or not....
it doesn't matter what kind of mindset you have, science will still exist.......
science seems to be more real because it exists regardless if you believe in it or not,
whereas belief in god need to have a "certain mind set" or "certain conditions" to work......
religion operates with its conditions worked out by logical constructions like Aristotle
"unmoved mover" and not in reality... I shall explore this further in a post shortly in
my thread about space, time and the existence of everything....... if something
doesn't exist until you believe it, does it really exists?

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:43 pm

HaHaHa wrote:Atheism implies the absence of something so really there is no belief whatsoever.

Nonbelief yes but no belief is implied.


Right.
And then . . . ?
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby phyllo » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:23 pm

believers tell me if I "believe" in god, I will then have the proof for god.....
As neil degrasse Tyson is noted for saying, you don't have to believe in science
for it to work, it works and exists, regardless of whether you believe in it or not.....
The existence of God is not dependent on your beliefs.
If God exists, then He exists even if you don't believe that He does and even if you see no proof or evidence.

If God doesn't exist, then believing in God won't make Him exist.
:-"

And as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby nano-bug » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:48 pm

I love you. We love each other. You don't need to be told that. What am I doin?
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:15 am

phyllo wrote:
believers tell me if I "believe" in god, I will then have the proof for god.....
As neil degrasse Tyson is noted for saying, you don't have to believe in science
for it to work, it works and exists, regardless of whether you believe in it or not.....
The existence of God is not dependent on your beliefs.
If God exists, then He exists even if you don't believe that He does and even if you see no proof or evidence.

If God doesn't exist, then believing in God won't make Him exist.
:-"

And as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


K: science exists and it doesn't matter if I believe, but as you pointed out, "IF, god exists"
and god doesn't exist, so it doesn't matter if I believe or not.....

so your argument is really just another logical argument for the existence of god without
any actual proof......... whereas I can show you science and the effects of science and
do actual science experiments.....whereas you can't show me god and you can't show
me any effects of god...... that is the difference.... I can show you science and you
can't show me god.......

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:27 am

so your argument is really just another logical argument for the existence of god without
any actual proof...
My argument was that your logic is faulty. I made no claims about the existence of God.
I simply stated that the existence( or non-existence) of God is independent of your beliefs - which is obviously true.
whereas I can show you science and the effects of science and
do actual science experiments.....whereas you can't show me god and you can't show
me any effects of god...... that is the difference.... I can show you science and you
can't show me god.......
But I have no interest in showing you God.

Whether you believe in God or not is completely irrelevant to me.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:36 am

Irony of ironies, I felt God during Buddhist meditation. That is what I understand God to be. A feeling. A supreme goodness.


Enter your house ... close all the doors and windows ... shut down all senses, memory, reason, understanding and so on ... paraphrasing Lao Tzu

Apparently it took Siddhārtha Gautama 48 days and nights ... some people work hard their entire lives to achieve this particular "state of mind" and never quite get there ...

I like Ruth Barrows metaphor

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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Kriswest » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:42 am

I just can't believe in the religions of so called gods. There could be superior beings but, their religions are deplorable.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:58 pm

phyllo wrote:And as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


We assign probability to every possibility based on data that we possess. The possibility that "God exists" has 0% probability so it's safe to say He does not exist.

No need for responses such as "you can't prove a negative" and "absence of belief isn't the opposite belief".
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby Pandora » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:19 pm

pilgrim_tom wrote:
Irony of ironies, I felt God during Buddhist meditation. That is what I understand God to be. A feeling. A supreme goodness.


Enter your house ... close all the doors and windows ... shut down all senses, memory, reason, understanding and so on ... paraphrasing Lao Tzu

Apparently it took Siddhārtha Gautama 48 days and nights ... some people work hard their entire lives to achieve this particular "state of mind" and never quite get there ... ”
I recently saw a movie on Brooke Ellison story (about the first quadriplegic woman who went to Harvard), and in one scene where she's still in deep coma after accident the doctor was worried that she may regain consciousness but not her cognition, and I wonder if the state of consciousness without cognition is the same state as Buddha mind.
Wouldn't Buddha mind state, in a sense, be imitating brain damage? :-k
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Re: Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:52 pm

We assign probability to every possibility based on data that we possess. The possibility that "God exists" has 0% probability so it's safe to say He does not exist.
Zero probability is called 'certainty'. (As is 100% probability.) :D

It's good that you are certain but you are in disagreement with the multitude of people who think that there is adequate data/evidence for the existence of God. :confusion-shrug:
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