Fair to say that atheists might be the biggest believers?

They just don’t like spiritual definitions of any type given to them by mankind.

Their idea of a God, were they to believe in the way that believers do, is much grander than what can be talked about, much more godly than anything that could be preached.

They simply don’t bow down to a cheap version. They rail against having to hear this pale imitation.

In their mind God is so great, it can’t be conceived of by a mind. Which makes them the biggest believers. Of the trap door in the back variety. Kicking and screaming while being dragged to some heavenly state.

Sorry to offend any atheist who completely disagrees. Maybe nothing does suit you. Not many people like the magician who reveals how the trick is done. But for the atheist who is open these ideas, I hope I’ve echoed a secret feeling of relief.


I am an apatheist so do not care if God exists or what form he takes

Cool. I met a guy one time who told me he worships Satan. I bought him some pop-tarts. No lie.

K: I usually don’t like fighting these battles but you are wrong on so many levels,
I need to say something… there is no god… it is not about belief or wishing or
hoping or anything else, there is simply no god, like there is no unicorns
or Santa Claus or anything else like this…god is not great, it is simple
non existent…
I searched for god for 40 years and never found hide or hair of anything
resembling god…it is just a feel good technique by people to have
better self esteem…you be better off taking pills or smoking something
than believe in non existing beings…

Kropotkin

Another way I’d say that, there are no believers. There is no god when god is all things. Now this is what I believe, when I talk about it. However the fact that we are both the ocean floor, the sake of metaphors, and I’m talking to you like we’re islands, is a breach of the faith I just professed. It changes under the microscope. It is possible to believe in god and think the bible is rubbish.

If I asked you what Santa Claus or a unicorn looked like you’d be able to describe them. Maybe that’s a bad example, because I certainly do not think of god as old gray beard man. Some people don’t believe in aliens. I am someone who is seen spaceships. But I remember what it was like before I saw them. I was on the fence about the possibility of them even existing, knowing damn well that people like to photograph light hoaxes. If you haven’t seen spaceships I don’t expect you to believe me. I just know I feel good about possibilities. That maybe unicorns exist in parallel worlds.

Anyway you seem to be doing just fine without a belief in God. And you don’t need me to tell you that. Hopefully no ruffled feathers.

Irony of ironies, I felt God during Buddhist meditation. That is what I understand God to be. A feeling. A supreme goodness.

Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?

I looked inside. Supreme goodness as a whole was there.

I still haven’t traveled to the west coast.

Atheists are like a evolution from the beliebers but not a final evolution.

Atheists don’t like gambling or odds, if you list a bunch of OBE’s and give them evidence demons are real, they are like…Doesn’t happen 100% of the time, there is a 10% chance there is a global conspiracy that all OBE’s are lies, there is a chance afterlife experiences were made by a global conspiracy of liars or all in the brain, If I don’t see it with my own eyes I don’t believe it because I need something to happen 100% of the time, like gravity, because my name is Thomas and I am a Doubter, a Doubting Thomas.

Now lets say that God is fake and doesn’t exist. Atheism still doesn’t give a satisfying solution of how consciousness came to be, why it is in this body, and where it goes in the future.

K: I have often asked believers this one question: OK, if you believe in God, where
is the evidence? Show me proof of any kind, that god exists…
I’ll wait…

Kropotkin

Okay they don’t like gambling or odds, their preference. Why do I like the music I do, I don’t know.

It does sound like you are at least holding consciousness up to the light. What’s wrong with that light merging with more a more wholesome light?

I get that you don’t want to be taken for a sucker by liars and global conspirators. Seeing life as the miracle is a way to end the search for categorical miracles witnessed by one’s own eyes.

IMO, evolution isn’t different from a god who never rested on the seventh marketplace day and who is still creating moment to moment. When I get tired of the preaching stink of mankind spiritualists, I like to think of a cavemen who has no words, who can only point at the sky with a pure wonderment that he can’t share verbally. He knows he his made of stars, he just can’t use that against other stars.

Show me proof that subatomic particles exist.

Ierrellus: Can a human who has not experienced all that exists confirm or deny the existence of a god who may be the sum total of all that exists? So you, P.K. have come to know all that can possibly exist given 40 years of personal knowing?
[/quote]
K: I have often asked believers this one question: OK, if you believe in God, where
is the evidence? Show me proof of any kind, that god exists…
I’ll wait…

I: Show me proof that subatomic particles exist.

K: The modern world operates with the use of subatomic particles…
for example, without subatomic atoms, you don’t have microwaves and
nuclear weapons and X-ray machines… without the use and understanding
subatomic atoms, the modern world doesn’t exist…

but say that isn’t enough for you, ok, go to an accelerator,
CERN or I live very close to the Stanford accelerator, i drive over it
every time I go south on 280, and they will show you subatomic
atoms with every collision… they take pictures of those collisions
and I have seen those pictures as you could if you simply use your computer,
which functions because of use and knowledge of subatomic atoms…

You might say that is not enough proof… well you can’t experience
subatomic atoms physically, but you can see their effect in our world
and beyond, so yes, subatomic atoms exist because we can use science
to predict their presence and we use science to create uses for them,
we use science in subatomic atoms to model and understand the
universe… without subatomic atoms, all our science and technology
would fail and given the successful state of science and technology, it is clear
our understanding of the universe is a correct one and that understanding
includes subatomic atoms…

you might say, but that is not enough, I want to physically see subatomic
atoms, you can, just google it and you will see pictures of it as it is
split by other atoms in accelerators like CERN and Stanford… not enough,
can’t help you there as then you are denying the obvious whereas
you can’t show me any proof of god, of any kind, and it doesn’t matter
how much you believe if you have no proof of any kind…

Kropotkin

Atheism implies the absence of something so really there is no belief whatsoever.

Nonbelief yes but no belief is implied.

P.K.,
You have provided me with a set of physical examples as evidence of sub atomic particles; yet you cannot seem to imagine that, given certain conditions, the existence of God might be proved. For anyone who is pure in heart and poor in spirit God can be experienced. You are born with a trinite psyche–body, mind, spirit. Looking for God though a single aspect of this trinity will not yield God’s presence. Hence the physical/mental way of seeing may provide me with evidence of subatomic particles, but cannot envisage God except as a cultural phenomenon that does not even describe the best of human morality. If you honestly search for God with all your being, God will find you.
Who is to say that God has not been looking for you for 40 years, but can’t be seen for your mindset?

K: and you say “under certain conditions, the existence of god might be proved”…
under certain conditions which are?..

believers tell me if I “believe” in god, I will then have the proof for god…
As neil degrasse Tyson is noted for saying, you don’t have to believe in science
for it to work, it works and exists, regardless of whether you believe in it or not…
science is independent of any belief in it… it exists regardless if we believe in it or not…
it doesn’t matter what kind of mindset you have, science will still exist…
science seems to be more real because it exists regardless if you believe in it or not,
whereas belief in god need to have a “certain mind set” or “certain conditions” to work…
religion operates with its conditions worked out by logical constructions like Aristotle
“unmoved mover” and not in reality… I shall explore this further in a post shortly in
my thread about space, time and the existence of everything… if something
doesn’t exist until you believe it, does it really exists?

Kropotkin

Right.
And then . . . ?

The existence of God is not dependent on your beliefs.
If God exists, then He exists even if you don’t believe that He does and even if you see no proof or evidence.

If God doesn’t exist, then believing in God won’t make Him exist.
:-"

And as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I love you. We love each other. You don’t need to be told that. What am I doin?

K: science exists and it doesn’t matter if I believe, but as you pointed out, “IF, god exists”
and god doesn’t exist, so it doesn’t matter if I believe or not…

so your argument is really just another logical argument for the existence of god without
any actual proof… whereas I can show you science and the effects of science and
do actual science experiments…whereas you can’t show me god and you can’t show
me any effects of god… that is the difference… I can show you science and you
can’t show me god…

Kropotkin

My argument was that your logic is faulty. I made no claims about the existence of God.
I simply stated that the existence( or non-existence) of God is independent of your beliefs - which is obviously true.

But I have no interest in showing you God.

Whether you believe in God or not is completely irrelevant to me.