Plans for a religion

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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Chakra Superstar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:30 am

Dan~ wrote:Enlightenment:

You -are- enlightenment, but you do not know what enlightenment is. Enlightenment is sleeping within things.
Awakening realizes an already existing enlightenment.
Enlightenment isn't an absolute, or a thing, or an ideology.
I'd call it meta-formic.
It is something so deep and clear that it predates thoughts and sensations.

I agree, Dan, but who is the 'you' that's Enlightened?

Most people don't seem to understand that it's not the psychological 'you' that becomes Enlightened. The psychological 'you' (false identity or ego) can never be Enlightened because it doesn't exist outside the human mind. In other words, the dream character is not that which wakes up. How can the dream character enter the 'real' world? It can't.

What happens is, as the a person begins to Awake, the psychological self/ego - like the dream character - dissolves and the dreamer, which has been there all the time, comes into focus. It's in this shift of consciousness that one realizes that he has always been the dreamer playing the part of the dream character.

It's important to remember because when a person has a genuine Awakening experience and falls back 'asleep' again into this mundane world, the psychological self (dream character) assumes that it had the experience when in actual fact, the psychological identity/ego was absent.

If the psychological self/ego believes it had the experience then trying to reexperience it again is going to be in vain. The psychological self/ego cannot experience its own absence but what it will do is create imaginary states of mind or mystical experiences and claim them to be Enlightenment.

Mystical experiences – as beautiful and profound as they often are – are not Enlightenment. Enlightenment is hyper clarity… hyper transparency… emptiness… no-thingness… spaciousness. To the mind, Enlightenment appears bland and boring. Mystical experiences, on the other hand, are drenched with emotion, meaning and awe. The psychological self/ego thrives on this.

You probably know this already Dan, I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing; I just want to clarify it so others don't confuse Enlightenment with all the other imaginary or mystical states. There's absolutely nothing wrong with those experiences if you're aware of what they truly are.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Dan~ » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:12 am

From your post I'd say you've got a good understanding.
You explained it in ways that had not exactly occured to me at the time.
Sometimes illusions are incredibly artistic.
Other times images look so real.
Being good and wise is not amusing or funny, or exciting.
But that's ok. Culture just doesn't focus that way.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby gib » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:32 am

Dan~ wrote:Enlightenment:

You -are- enlightenment, but you do not know what enlightenment is. Enlightenment is sleeping within things.
Awakening realizes an already existing enlightenment.
Enlightenment isn't an absolute, or a thing, or an ideology.
I'd call it meta-formic.
It is something so deep and clear that it predates thoughts and sensations.


I like Chakra's explanation for this. Let me add my own:

The enlightened self is like an actor, whereas the 'ego' as Chakra is calling it is like the character played by the actor. If the actor is really good, he will lose himself in the role. He will forget who he really is and make believe that he is the character. Enlightenment is like pausing the play, or taking a break to go back stage--you recall who you are (the actor) and suspend your persona as the character. But even in that state, you always return to the play. Pausing from the show, taking a break, is a good way to rejuvenate, but the actor knows that the play must go on (even if it's a terrible tragedy in which the character suffers horribly), and so he dives right back, even joyfully, into the role in order to perpetuate the life of the character to the point of fulfilling his purpose.

So yes, Dan, enlightenment is always there. The actor is always there, playing the role, even if the character has no clue the actor exists or why he is playing him.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Chakra Superstar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:44 am

gib wrote:I like Chakra's explanation for this. Let me add my own:

The enlightened self is like an actor, whereas the 'ego' as Chakra is calling it is like the character played by the actor. If the actor is really good, he will lose himself in the role. He will forget who he really is and make believe that he is the character. Enlightenment is like pausing the play, or taking a break to go back stage--you recall who you are (the actor) and suspend your persona as the character. But even in that state, you always return to the play. Pausing from the show, taking a break, is a good way to rejuvenate, but the actor knows that the play must go on (even if it's a terrible tragedy in which the character suffers horribly), and so he dives right back, even joyfully, into the role in order to perpetuate the life of the character to the point of fulfilling his purpose.

So yes, Dan, enlightenment is always there. The actor is always there, playing the role, even if the character has no clue the actor exists or why he is playing him.


Yep, that’s pretty much it, gib, particularly the part about the character losing him/herself in the role but I wouldn’t say the Enlightened person needs to take a metaphorical break from the play.

After adjusting to the profound shift (adjustment can take many years) the Enlightened one can be in the world but not of the world, simultaneously.

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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:12 am

Interesting read CS ... echoes of the writings of two popular 16th century Spanish Mystics ... St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross ... Interior Castles and Dark Night of the Soul respectively. Both in your description of the pinnacle of enlightenment and your warnings about the potholes along the way.

Interesting timing ... maybe :-)

16th Century Spain was home to 3 individuals( St Teresa, St John and St Ignatius ... founder of the Jesuits) ... each leaving a substantial and enduring legacy. A blessing or a curse? ... suppose it depends on one's perspective.

At the time ... 16th century ... Spain was a formidable Empire and today it's one of the PIGS of Europe ... Hmmm!

Montserrat ... about 20 miles from Barcelona ... was the place of St Ignatius's conversion ... St Teresa dreamed of opening a Discalced Carmelite Convent in Madrid ... St John spent his last years in Segovia ... not far from Madrid.

Any connection to the current political events in Spain? Who knows eh?

Is the notion of 'enlightenment' a good thing for humanity?
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby gib » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:58 pm

Chakra Superstar wrote:Yep, that’s pretty much it, gib, particularly the part about the character losing him/herself in the role but I wouldn’t say the Enlightened person needs to take a metaphorical break from the play.

After adjusting to the profound shift (adjustment can take many years) the Enlightened one can be in the world but not of the world, simultaneously.

.


Yes, you're absolutely right. It's hard to think of a good analogy to that though. Perhaps the actor playing himself?

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Interesting read CS ... echoes of the writings of two popular 16th century Spanish Mystics ... St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross ... Interior Castles and Dark Night of the Soul respectively. Both in your description of the pinnacle of enlightenment and your warnings about the potholes along the way.

Interesting timing ... maybe :-)

16th Century Spain was home to 3 individuals( St Teresa, St John and St Ignatius ... founder of the Jesuits) ... each leaving a substantial and enduring legacy. A blessing or a curse? ... suppose it depends on one's perspective.

At the time ... 16th century ... Spain was a formidable Empire and today it's one of the PIGS of Europe ... Hmmm!

Montserrat ... about 20 miles from Barcelona ... was the place of St Ignatius's conversion ... St Teresa dreamed of opening a Discalced Carmelite Convent in Madrid ... St John spent his last years in Segovia ... not far from Madrid.

Any connection to the current political events in Spain? Who knows eh?


Hey Pilgrim,

Any connection to your Fatima thread, maybe?

How's that thread going, BTW? If you could sum up your main message in that thread, what would it be?

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Is the notion of 'enlightenment' a good thing for humanity?


I would think so. It gives people hope, something to aim for, while at the same time not being moral imperative. I think in every religion, there's some groundless superstition, but I also think there are kernels of truth, and I don't think they're all equally weighted in this regard. I think Buddhism (and other religions focused on enlightenment) are onto something, a lot more than other religions. That's not to say other religions are complete rubbish, but I think Buddhism can boast more hands-on results. For example, brain scans done on Buddhist monks who are well seasoned in meditation have been compared to lay people who aren't very experienced in meditation, and the results are noticeable. Lay people show brain activity more or less scattered throughout the brain (not much different from lay people who are not meditating) whereas the Buddhist monks show almost no brain activity in the left lobe and heightened brain activity in the right lobe. And also just the reported experiences of people who practice meditation--feeling more at peace, happier, being more able to feel compassion and love for other beings.

One of the major differences between Western and Eastern religions, which I think plays a role here, is that Western religions teach us that salvation is not to be found here in this life, that we must play our cards right and if we're lucky, then maybe we'll find salvation (God, enlightenment, heaven, etc.) in the afterlife. Eastern religions, on the other hand, teach that salvation (God, enlightenment, heaven, etc.) is attainable in this life, and directly attainable by the individual. It leaves the adherent with two very different approaches to life, and consequently with two very different sets of results.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arminius » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Dan~ wrote:I want to spend my inheritance, when i get it, in the far future, upon a bunch of small interconnected houses.
I will find and invite people to live there. It will be on dad's farm land, so no rent issues.
We will have gardens and self-supplied organic foods.

The religion of Canada is freedom of choice.
So I must accept that first.
Next, I try to share my beliefs if it can help someone out.
Dan~ wrote:Dad and Andrew don't like my idea at all.
They are ok with andrew spending his spare money on beer and weed.
Buying a new car or stuffing animals you've shot.
But when it comes to a commune, giving things to others,
that is some kind of a crime.

These humans are foolish and I won't let that stop my plans.
It's only a matter of time until I set something up.

You are pretty much an idealist, whereas your Dad and your brother Andrew are pretty much realists (respectively: materialists, at least your Dad, or hedonists, at least your brother) and therefore do not like your idea.

Is this very first analysis true?
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arminius » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:12 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Interesting read CS ... echoes of the writings of two popular 16th century Spanish Mystics ... St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross ... Interior Castles and Dark Night of the Soul respectively. Both in your description of the pinnacle of enlightenment and your warnings about the potholes along the way.

Interesting timing ... maybe :-)

16th Century Spain was home to 3 individuals( St Teresa, St John and St Ignatius ... founder of the Jesuits) ... each leaving a substantial and enduring legacy. A blessing or a curse? ... suppose it depends on one's perspective.

At the time ... 16th century ... Spain was a formidable Empire and today it's one of the PIGS of Europe ... Hmmm!

Montserrat ... about 20 miles from Barcelona ... was the place of St Ignatius's conversion ... St Teresa dreamed of opening a Discalced Carmelite Convent in Madrid ... St John spent his last years in Segovia ... not far from Madrid.

Any connection to the current political events in Spain?

Those who want the seperation of Catalonia from Spain want to weaken Spain and to let come a conflict or even a war (civil war). History repeats somehow.

Also, this current case of Catalonia reminds me of the case of Ukraine.

Neither the Ukrainians and Russians nor the Catalans and the other Spanirads are those who want this conflicts and wars. They actually have no say. But others, who have the say, have interests in those conflicts and wars.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:41 am

Hey Pilgrim,

Any connection to your Fatima thread, maybe?


I think so. :)

June 26, 2000, I walked out of Lourdes France ... in a Westerly direction ... no agenda, no time table, a fuzzy destination(Fatima) and carrying my home on my back.(all my worldly possessions were in my back pack) I was compelled to walk across Spain to get there. :-)

How's that thread going, BTW?


Gib ... interesting choice of words ... the word "thread". Many threads are required to make a morsel of cloth. Had you used the word "OP" my response would be a simple ... not worth a shit! :-)

Since you opened the door ... intentionally or otherwise ... I'm happy to declare that my Fatima thread when considered in conjunction with all other threads I initiated or participated in during the same time period is really quite exciting ... for me at least.

If you could sum up your main message in that thread, what would it be?


I consecrated my life to Our Lady of Fatima ... the Virgin Mary ... more than 20 years ago. I continue to respect my pledge ... real or delusion ... the Fatima thread echoes my dedication.

Some would say I'm in pretty good company.Today is the Feast Day of St John Paul II who also consecrated his life to the Virgin Mary as a young adult. Some people refer to him as the Philosopher Pope and his motto was ... Totus Tuus (Totally yours)

One of the major differences between Western and Eastern religions, which I think plays a role here, is that Western religions teach us that salvation is not to be found here in this life, that we must play our cards right and if we're lucky, then maybe we'll find salvation (God, enlightenment, heaven, etc.) in the afterlife. Eastern religions, on the other hand, teach that salvation (God, enlightenment, heaven, etc.) is attainable in this life, and directly attainable by the individual. It leaves the adherent with two very different approaches to life, and consequently with two very different sets of results.


IMHO ... individually Western and Eastern religions have merit. Perhaps their's potential for synergy if the two ever synthesize into one religion. In a million years maybe. :-)
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:49 am

Those who want the seperation of Catalonia from Spain want to weaken Spain and to let come a conflict or even a war (civil war). History repeats somehow.

Also, this current case of Catalonia reminds me of the case of Ukraine.

Neither the Ukrainians and Russians nor the Catalans and the other Spanirads are those who want this conflicts and wars. They actually have no say. But others, who have the say, have interests in those conflicts and wars.


The Gordian Knot? ... a formula for sharing authority and wealth ... where almost all people would be content ... continues to elude humanity despite millennia of monumental philosophical, religious and scientific effort.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:17 am

Chakra Superstar wrote:
Dan~ wrote:Enlightenment:

You -are- enlightenment, but you do not know what enlightenment is. Enlightenment is sleeping within things.
Awakening realizes an already existing enlightenment.
Enlightenment isn't an absolute, or a thing, or an ideology.
I'd call it meta-formic.
It is something so deep and clear that it predates thoughts and sensations.

I agree, Dan, but who is the 'you' that's Enlightened?

Most people don't seem to understand that it's not the psychological 'you' that becomes Enlightened. The psychological 'you' (false identity or ego) can never be Enlightened because it doesn't exist outside the human mind. In other words, the dream character is not that which wakes up. How can the dream character enter the 'real' world? It can't.

What happens is, as the a person begins to Awake, the psychological self/ego - like the dream character - dissolves and the dreamer, which has been there all the time, comes into focus. It's in this shift of consciousness that one realizes that he has always been the dreamer playing the part of the dream character.

It's important to remember because when a person has a genuine Awakening experience and falls back 'asleep' again into this mundane world, the psychological self (dream character) assumes that it had the experience when in actual fact, the psychological identity/ego was absent.

If the psychological self/ego believes it had the experience then trying to reexperience it again is going to be in vain. The psychological self/ego cannot experience its own absence but what it will do is create imaginary states of mind or mystical experiences and claim them to be Enlightenment.

Mystical experiences – as beautiful and profound as they often are – are not Enlightenment. Enlightenment is hyper clarity… hyper transparency… emptiness… no-thingness… spaciousness. To the mind, Enlightenment appears bland and boring. Mystical experiences, on the other hand, are drenched with emotion, meaning and awe. The psychological self/ego thrives on this.

You probably know this already Dan, I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing; I just want to clarify it so others don't confuse Enlightenment with all the other imaginary or mystical states. There's absolutely nothing wrong with those experiences if you're aware of what they truly are.


Sounds like enlightenment is the same as chronic depression.

Buddha was a fat makeup wearing tranny, I bet I am an enlightened mage of some sort also.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Chakra Superstar » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:59 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Sounds like enlightenment is the same as chronic depression.


It does if you think Enlightenment (or being Awake) is a state of mind, but it’s not.
Enlightenment is what consciousness is BEFORE the dualistic mind creates any states.

That’s the point of a lot of my posts. I’m not trying to sell anything or convince anyone. I’m simply trying to clarify what the term 'Enlightenment' referred to before Buddhism was turned into a religion and new agers hijacked it and sold it as a perpetual orgasm of bliss and pink, fluffy clouds.

Being Awake is just being Awake. It is not an emotional, religious or ‘spiritual’ state of mind.

If we use a computer analogy, we could say that being Awake is analogous to being "On" while emotional/spiritual states are programs that run on top of that. Most seekers are looking for a program called "Enlightenment" and in doing so, their focus is wrong. It's like the proverbial fish looking for water or the dude looking for his glasses while he's wearing them.

The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me....” Meister Eckhart. Consciousness is that 'eye' (or is it "I"?) :-k

We need to reexamine what it is we're really looking for: Enlightenment (liberation from the dream) or spiritual experiences inside the dream. One is not more 'right' than the other (and they can overlap a bit) but you do have to know what you're seeking and what you're experiencing.


Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Buddha was a fat makeup wearing tranny, I bet I am an enlightened mage of some sort also.
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That image is the sort of hijacking I’m talking about. In many ways, the Buddha was an ordinary dude who had a dramatic shift of consciousness. I doubt he always looked like he had just stepped out of a lovely hot bath and into freshly pressed clothes, make-up, perfumes and all the other paraphernalia. I'm sure he spent most of his life as a smelling, unkempt beggar but that doesn't sell too well.

In this style of art, the artist imagines what Buddha’s inner world might look like then tries to represent that image by exaggerating Buddha’s exterior world. As lovey as it is, it's just pretty visual poetry. It's candy for the mind.

If the artist was to make a more accurate depiction of Buddha’s interior world he/she might do better to install a pane of clear glass. If the pane was positioned so that it reflected the world around the viewer, then that would be a better depiction of the Buddha's transparent mind than the image above, but I digress...


(I’m going to be busy for a while so I may not be able to respond as quickly as I’d like. )
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Last edited by Chakra Superstar on Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arminius » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:11 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Those who want the seperation of Catalonia from Spain want to weaken Spain and to let come a conflict or even a war (civil war). History repeats somehow.

Also, this current case of Catalonia reminds me of the case of Ukraine.

Neither the Ukrainians and Russians nor the Catalans and the other Spanirads are those who want this conflicts and wars. They actually have no say. But others, who have the say, have interests in those conflicts and wars.


The Gordian Knot? ... a formula for sharing authority and wealth ... where almost all people would be content ... continues to elude humanity despite millennia of monumental philosophical, religious and scientific effort.

Life could be so easy. But the greed destroys everything. If animals were smarter and capable of speaking, they would certainly say: "Humans are beings of greed".
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby James S Saint » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:26 am

Chakra Superstar wrote:Enlightenment (liberation from the dream)

That's the essence of it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:14 am

Arminius wrote:Life could be so easy. But the greed destroys everything. If animals were smarter and capable of speaking, they would certainly say: "Humans are beings of greed".


Arminius ... certainly few people would disagree.

Let's use your comment as a 'baseline' for further thought. A real world example ... so many people attribute the meteoric rise of China to Deng Xiaoping ... him being the person who opened the doors to China after these doors had been virtually closed to the outside world for almost 500 years.

Deng Xiaoping's strategy hinged on two axioms:

1) Cross the river by feeling the stones(with your feet) Find a stone ... step on it ... when convinced it's safe have your other foot find the next stone ... and in this way cross the river. ergo ... exercise cautious adventurism.

2) A little greed is OK ... ergo ... opening the door to greed only a crack will serve our purpose at the moment and we can easily close it again at the appropriate time.

His strategy seems to have worked ... and China has recently reached the stage where they want to close the door to greed again. ergo ... the highly publicized anti corruption campaign. The jury is still out on whether they will be successful or not.

For me, this real world example says the following:

1) Greed in certain circumstances has merit.

2) Greed does not die a natural death ... greed must be killed ... an enormous and perhaps impossible task.

Let's change the scope of the example to the world ... the human race. Pervasive greed throughout human history brought us to where we are today ... not all bad. Has the time for greed to die come? I think so. Will greed die a natural death ... simply from old age? :-) Not likely.

What can/should we do?
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:56 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:What can/should we do?

World revolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POyePtj6GbQ
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:00 pm

Chakra Superstar wrote:
We need to reexamine what it is we're really looking for: Enlightenment (liberation from the dream) or spiritual experiences inside the dream. One is not more 'right' than the other (and they can overlap a bit) but you do have to know what you're seeking and what you're experiencing.

Okay I want to talk about a few things.

There is no way to "liberate" oneself from the dream. Simply stating it is a dream does not make it so.
Like, unless you can walk on hot coals for 5 minutes, and not feel any pain, then you are not liberated from the dream, because it is not a dream.


Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Buddha was a fat makeup wearing tranny, I bet I am an enlightened mage of some sort also.
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That image is the sort of hijacking I’m talking about. In many ways, the Buddha was an ordinary dude who had a dramatic shift of consciousness. I doubt he always looked like he had just stepped out of a lovely hot bath and into freshly pressed clothes, make-up, perfumes and all the other paraphernalia. I'm sure he spent most of his life as a smelling, unkempt beggar but that doesn't sell too well.

I am the same way actually. Sometimes I say to myself, what's the point, DNA machine isn't real, I will never pass as woman, and so I don't bother to shave or shower. Whats the point unless you're a beautiful woman, there is no point.

In this style of art, the artist imagines what Buddha’s inner world might look like then tries to represent that image by exaggerating Buddha’s exterior world. As lovey as it is, it's just pretty visual poetry. It's candy for the mind.
Im the same as buddha, I imagine myself as a beautiful woman.

If the artist was to make a more accurate depiction of Buddha’s interior world he/she might do better to install a pane of clear glass. If the pane was positioned so that it reflected the world around the viewer, then that would be a better depiction of the Buddha's transparent mind than the image above, but I digress...
Im also the same as buddha, sometimes I imagine myself as nothing and that i am nothing more than looking at my environment.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby gib » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:39 pm

Chakra Superstar wrote:If we use a computer analogy, we could say that being Awake is analogous to being "On" while emotional/spiritual states are programs that run on top of that. Most seekers are looking for a program called "Enlightenment" and in doing so, their focus is wrong. It's like the proverbial fish looking for water or the dude looking for his glasses while he's wearing them.


But Chakra, doesn't that mean everyone is always enlightened? What does it mean when someone talks about becoming enlightened?
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arminius » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:31 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arminius wrote:Life could be so easy. But the greed destroys everything. If animals were smarter and capable of speaking, they would certainly say: "Humans are beings of greed".


Arminius ... certainly few people would disagree.

Let's use your comment as a 'baseline' for further thought. A real world example ... so many people attribute the meteoric rise of China to Deng Xiaoping ... him being the person who opened the doors to China after these doors had been virtually closed to the outside world for almost 500 years.

Deng Xiaoping's strategy hinged on two axioms:

1) Cross the river by feeling the stones(with your feet) Find a stone ... step on it ... when convinced it's safe have your other foot find the next stone ... and in this way cross the river. ergo ... exercise cautious adventurism.

2) A little greed is OK ... ergo ... opening the door to greed only a crack will serve our purpose at the moment and we can easily close it again at the appropriate time.

His strategy seems to have worked ... and China has recently reached the stage where they want to close the door to greed again. ergo ... the highly publicized anti corruption campaign. The jury is still out on whether they will be successful or not.

For me, this real world example says the following:

1) Greed in certain circumstances has merit.

Yes, indeed. I totally agree. I would not use the word "greed" then. But you are right.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:2) Greed does not die a natural death ... greed must be killed ... an enormous and perhaps impossible task.

Let's change the scope of the example to the world ... the human race. Pervasive greed throughout human history brought us to where we are today ... not all bad. Has the time for greed to die come? I think so. Will greed die a natural death ... simply from old age? :-) Not likely.

What can/should we do?

That is the question.

When I was talking about "greed", I did not value that (I am very much an objectivist), but meant it as a fact. And it is just this fact why there is this "enormous and perhaps impossible task" that you mentioned obove.
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:01 am

I am very much an objectivist


I didn't know ... guess that terminates this e-exchange ... I am very much a subjectivist whatever that means. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arminius » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:34 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
I am very much an objectivist


I didn't know ... guess that terminates this e-exchange

Why?

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:... I am very much a subjectivist whatever that means. :-)

We all are subjective anyway (but that does of course not necessarily mean that we all are subjectivists). So when I say "I am an objectivist", I just mean that the objective part of my inner subjective/objective dualism is above average (whatever that means :) ).
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:52 am

Arminius wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
I am very much an objectivist


I didn't know ... guess that terminates this e-exchange

Why?


From my experience objectivists and subjectivists often enough exchange mega volumes of words ... sometimes even with mutual respect and courtesy ... yet ... in the end both communities remain stuck in a quagmire of words.

I'd rather not wait for the facts to manifest before contemplating solutions to the greed issue we discussed. :-)

Arminius wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:... I am very much a subjectivist whatever that means. :-)

We all are subjective anyway (but that does of course not necessarily mean that we all are subjectivists). So when I say "I am an objectivist", I just mean that the objective part of my inner subjective/objective dualism is above average (whatever that means :) ).


Maybe I'll soon have a conversion experience and join your community of objectivists. :)
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:11 pm

Chakra Superstar,


Being Awake is just being Awake
.

Define what you mean by *just being awake*?
Very often when we are awake, we are only half asleep or at least not fully conscious and aware of what is going on around us.


It is not an emotional, religious or ‘spiritual’ state of mind.


But as human beings with emotions and spirits, doesn't *being awake* also have to encompass those things?
For instance, *being awake* - wouldn't it mean that when our spirits soar or drag us down, we are aware or conscious of that?
When we have been hurt, wouldn't *being awake* cause us to not only realize this but understand what is going on, what has triggered this emotion?
Even within the *religious* term which means "to be bound up" *awake* suggests that we would have to understand that that is the experience in those moments, at least, even if we didn't understand Why in those moments.

Awake would also suggest that we accept it all as being human.

How can being awake mean *just* being awake?
Couldn't the *just* make zombies of us even though zombies are the walking dead?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby gib » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 pm

I think what Chakra means is that enlightenment (being awake) is not a specific emotional, religious, or spiritual state (like being at peace, or finding happiness). It encompasses all mental states, though through meditation, one can shut off those states (or quiet the mind) such that we only experience being *just* awake. Does that make us zombies? Well, at least we're sitting quietly, not out hunting for brains.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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Re: Plans for a religion

Postby James S Saint » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Being awake, in this sense, refers to being extremely aware of one's surroundings and the true balance of life, "high consciousness".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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