Plans for a religion

[Chakra Superstar]

If we use a computer analogy, we could say that being Awake is analogous to being "On" while emotional/spiritual states are programs that run on top of that. Most seekers are looking for a program called "Enlightenment" and in doing so, their focus is wrong. It's like the proverbial fish looking for water or the dude looking for his glasses while he's wearing them.

But Chakra, doesn't that mean everyone is always enlightened? What does it mean when someone talks about becoming enlightened?

Yes! Absolutely. That’s exactly what it means.

Advaita/Non-dual teachings posit that man is always Enlightened and that our zombie, semi-conscious, sleep-state is why we don't realize it.

If someone talks about becoming Enlightened they either mistakenly think that the dream character is what ‘becomes’ enlightened or they’re a little sloppy with language. (In truth, the moment we use language, we go off track but that's another thread)

The dream character doesn’t wake up; it doesn’t ‘become’ Enlightened. The dreamer is the one who wakes up and what the dreamer wakes up from is the erroneous BELIEF that he’s a character in the dream. If you fall back to sleep, the dream character may recall fragments of waking up then claim that he -- the dream character -- woke up when in actual fact, the dream character was absent when it occurred. When someone recalls a genuine Awakening 'experience', it's being told by a character that wasn't there.

Re sloppy language… We use sloppy language in day-to-day speak, too, for instance when we say “It’s becoming sunny” we actually mean "it’s becoming less cloudy". We all know the sun doesn’t get larger or brighter so we’re not confused by the language but it can be confusing if we assume that ‘we’, the personality is that which 'becomes' Enlightened. Enlightenment is realized when the personality (ego/psychological identity) falls away.



FTR: The person(ality) doesn't completely vanish; nor is it meant to. So long as we have a body and mind fragments will remain, but they're very thin. We need the personality, the body and mind to operate in this world. They're all part of our total being. It's about perspective (or balance as JSS said)... it's about having a light, healthy mind as opposed to a neurotic mind or fragile identity that constantly gets hurt and angry.

[Chakra Superstar]

Okay I want to talk about a few things.

There is no way to "liberate" oneself from the dream. Simply stating it is a dream does not make it so.
Like, unless you can walk on hot coals for 5 minutes, and not feel any pain, then you are not liberated from the dream, because it is not a dream.

Um…. no. People who hypnotise themselves so that pain signals don’t register are not spiritually liberated but thanks for playing.

Buddha was a fat makeup wearing tranny, I bet I am an enlightened mage of some sort also.
...
I am the same way actually. Sometimes I say to myself, what's the point, DNA machine isn't real, I will never pass as woman, and so I don't bother to shave or shower. Whats the point unless you're a beautiful woman, there is no point.
....
Im the same as buddha, I imagine myself as a beautiful woman.

I knew you reminded me of someone. I just couldn’t put my finger on it but it was the Buddha. You and Buddhie could be twin sisters. I swear.

Im also the same as buddha, sometimes I imagine myself as nothing and that i am nothing more than looking at my environment.

On a more serious note: I'm not sure if you just imagined this or whether these could be genuine small breakthroughs. If the latter, then that could be interesting. Even though I don't take you seriously most of the time, UP1001, it wouldn't surprise me if you had a genuine breakthrough. It's often people who go through immense mental pain that a shift occurs.

[gib]

Chakra,

What you said concurs with my views perfectly. I wouldn't have been able to express it as succinctly as you, I would have brought in molecules, brains, operating systems, and my theory of universal experience (I would have ended up sounding like UP1001), but I get your gist.

[Arcturus Descending]

I think what Chakra means is that enlightenment (being awake) is not a specific emotional, religious, or spiritual state (like being at peace, or finding happiness). It encompasses all mental states, though through meditation, one can shut off those states (or quiet the mind) such that we only experience being *just* awake. Does that make us zombies? Well, at least we're sitting quietly, not out hunting for brains.

LOL Are you sure of that?

[Jakob]

So we are all awake, except we are asleep?

[James S Saint]

The soul of a person changes with the level of consciousness. In a sense, the sleeping person isn't the same person as the enlightened one within the same body. As the dream person fades away into nothingness, it is much like a rebirth for the soul to awaken, conscious of the truer nature of reality, a child shedding play things and becoming a man of conscience, attending to the affects he has upon the world.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

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http://thoughtsofamisfit.weebly.com/our ... hadow.html

[gib]

I think what Chakra means is that enlightenment (being awake) is not a specific emotional, religious, or spiritual state (like being at peace, or finding happiness). It encompasses all mental states, though through meditation, one can shut off those states (or quiet the mind) such that we only experience being *just* awake. Does that make us zombies? Well, at least we're sitting quietly, not out hunting for brains.

LOL Are you sure of that?

Listen Arc, what you do on your meditation time is your own business. Just remember to wipe your mouth when your done.

[gib]

So we are all awake, except we are asleep?

Which 'we'? The one that's awake or the one that's asleep.

[Chakra Superstar]

Chakra,

What you said concurs with my views perfectly. I wouldn't have been able to express it as succinctly as you, I would have brought in molecules, brains, operating systems, and my theory of universal experience (I would have ended up sounding like UP1001), but I get your gist.

Thanks for the feedback. I’m glad it’s getting across because it isn’t easy to simplify this stuff and skirt around the language traps.

Just remember that this isn’t my philosophy. This is an outline of non-dualism. I'm not selling anything.

In the end, non-dualism is about experience (wrong word but that’s language again). It’s not an intellectual philosophy. It’s just a pointer for those who are willing and brave enough to make the leap...

.

[Chakra Superstar]

So we are all awake, except we are asleep?

The experience of not knowing you’re Awake is exactly the same as not being Awake.

An anorexic woman doesn’t have a weight problem but believes she does so she experiences the world as though she’s a fat woman.
A hypochondriac doesn’t have health issues but he believes he has so he experiences life as though he was a sick, dying man.

Rephrasing your question, you could say that these people are healthy, except they’re sick and you’d be right. They’re physically healthy but psychologically sick.

The non-duelists say we are Awakeness Itself -- not some ‘thing’ that is Awake -- but we identify as some 'thing' we're not and thus experience life accordingly. You could say, we’re Awake spiritually but asleep psychologically.
.

[Chakra Superstar]

Being Awake is just being Awake

Chakra Superstar,
Define what you mean by *just being awake*?
Very often when we are awake, we are only half asleep or at least not fully conscious and aware of what is going on around us.

Awakeness is who you are (Consciousness).

Awakeness is what you are at the most fundamental level. It's what's behind all the images you've had of yourself over your lifetime. Awakeness is not something ‘you’ get or have; if so, who is the one getting it? It would mean the 'you' who gets Awakeness (or Enlightenment) is prior to, and greater than, Awakeness itself.

By saying ‘being Awake is just being Awake’ I was saying Awakeness is the perceiver -- not that which is perceived e.g. emotions.
.

[Chakra Superstar]

But as human beings with emotions and spirits, doesn't *being awake* also have to encompass those things?
For instance, *being awake* - wouldn't it mean that when our spirits soar or drag us down, we are aware or conscious of that?
When we have been hurt, wouldn't *being awake* cause us to not only realize this but understand what is going on, what has triggered this emotion?
Even within the *religious* term which means "to be bound up" *awake* suggests that we would have to understand that that is the experience in those moments, at least, even if we didn't understand Why in those moments.
Awake would also suggest that we accept it all as being human

How can being awake mean *just* being awake?
Couldn't the *just* make zombies of us even though zombies are the walking dead?

Think of the Enlightened as having clear minds. The clearer the mind; the clearer the perception and understanding.

Having a clear mind doesn’t mean there are no thoughts or emotions. They do have thoughts and emotions it's just that the Awake aren't attached to their thoughts nor do they have fragile egos they need to defend so thoughts pass across their minds like clouds pass across a clear sky.

Those who are Awake are, by definition, more awake, more conscious, more aware than the average person so why would anyone think they might be unaware, unfeeling or zombie-like?

Once again, we have it back-to-front. We are the zombies. We’re the ones who are only partially conscious -- Jesus called us the ‘dead’ -- so if anyone is less aware, less understanding or doesn't embrace their full humanity, it's us.

.

[James S Saint]

A part of the Reboot, Restore, Rethink, and Reinvest process:

Three Disciplines to Certain Enlightenment
Sat Dec 07, 2013
You live at a time and in a world of chaos and constant deception. It is said to be lost in darkness. Lost in its own masquerade, "seeking but not finding, yet certain of understanding anyway". But there is a path of escape from that world of confounded efforts and clouded, stuborn minds. There are three exercises that can each be practiced for short periods until the cloudy uncertainty in life is dissolved after which the mind and body gains clarity, harmony, and health. If enough people bother to do it, the same occurs to all of society, including those who didn't even try.

1) Say nothing that is not certainly true.
2) Attempt nothing that is not certain to be accomplished.
3) Want for nothing that is not certainly wise.

Each of those exercises requires a reasonable environment and are not dictating eternal morals but rather merely temporary exercises with which to clear the confusion away so that the mind can then choose its own priorities and morality if any at all.

Although to a degree all three must always be of some concern, it is important to do them in order and generally each will be a little more difficult to maintain than the prior. If attempted out of order, it isn't likely that anything will be accomplished other than perhaps a different type of confusion, a different color of dark cloud.

The religions attempted number 3 without accomplishing 1 or 2.
Science attempts number 2 without accomplishing 1 or 3.

One cannot tell a compass where magnetic North is supposed to be. One must altruistically build the compass (do the exercises in order) and let the compass THEN tell where North really is despite whatever one had previously imagined.

As your mind is right now, can you answer these questions with 100% confidence?

1) How can anyone determine what is necessarily absolutely true?
2) How can anyone ensure with 100% certainty that any attempt he makes will succeed?
3) How can anyone guide their desires to only what is 100% certain to be wise?

Until you do the exercises, you very probably can't answer any of those correctly. And you certainly can't know that you are answering them correctly without the exercises. Once you have done the exercises and gained a very clear understanding of each concern, you can then comment on the wisdom of doing them. Until then, you can't honestly say that you actually know anything concerning the wisdom of doing them. And please note that (3), is not saying that one should merely want to be wise, but rather that one should want only for what is wise to want for, or more simply, one should not want for foolish things.

The religions preach presumed wisdom from prophets. Science preaches presumed truth from perceptions.

Rational Metaphysics offers a means for determining what is or isn't true or wise without the need of preachers nor prophets, personal revelations, nor even experience (although all of those can be helpful). But your own personal exercises are still required. You must still be a "disciple" of the method for discovering on your own what is or isn't true or wise.

What is the first thing that one could expect to be able to be said with absolute certainty of being accurate?

"I don't know."

That is one thing a person can be 100% certain of. Yet it's the first thing people seem to forget. They might or might not quickly come up with other things that could be said with absolute certainty

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know.

[James S Saint]

I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know.

Then you certainly don't know and have lied.

[WendyDarling]

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know.

Then you certainly don't know and have lied.

JSS ... so you know I have lied.

So much for your earlier post emphasizing the "I don't know" phrase.

[Dan~]

(Inner harmony, wisdom, balance, enligthenment) > (truth, facts, knowledge, perception.)

Both are wonderful things, but the group to the left seems more fundamental than the group to the right.

[Dan~]

I've seen people that read so much, but it is vanity, because they don't have the "hands" to hold and wield knowledge.
Other people spend a whole life chasing after temporary pleasures, instead of finding the ever-lasting.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

I've seen people that read so much, but it is vanity, because they don't have the "hands" to hold and wield knowledge.
Other people spend a whole life chasing after temporary pleasures, instead of finding the ever-lasting.

Such wisdom

Reminds me of the idiom ... "Out of the mouth of babes" ... you are so young to "see" this Dan.

NT

When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

“Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

[Dan~]

One of my biggest fears is that i wont be powerful enough to handle and survive a life in the spirit world.

Modern humans don't know what true power is, or what it's like to live near the bottom of the food chain.

When they think about saving their soul, it is usually a path of theism.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

One of my biggest fears is that i wont be powerful enough to handle and survive a life in the spirit world.

Dan ... have you read my latest OP "Individuation"?

Your above comment is precisely why so few people enter the "dark night" voluntarily. To enter the night safely one must be tethered to mighty strong spirits.

Modern humans don't know what true power is, or what it's like to live near the bottom of the food chain.

Some people get chewed up pretty good in their lifetime(s).

When they think about saving their soul, it is usually a path of theism.

Still largely true today ... tomorrow ... who knows eh!

[Ecmandu]

One of my biggest fears is that i wont be powerful enough to handle and survive a life in the spirit world.

Modern humans don't know what true power is, or what it's like to live near the bottom of the food chain.

When they think about saving their soul, it is usually a path of theism.

Dan, I can even go atheist to be there with you if you need it. The nooks and crannies of the spirit world are vast. I can tell you one thing: people want the best for themselves - when eternal death knocks, nobody answers the door. Never have, never will.

[Dan~]

To enter the night safely one must be tethered to mighty strong spirits

That, and spend a lot of time developing one's self where possible.
The universe is packed full of spirits. But finding a good one is up to the person in question.