Why God is Inherently Wrong

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Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:37 am

An eternity in Hell. Is this justice?

Now, before I begin, let me just say that I'm talking about the Biblical God--the Christian God in particular. The God whose holy word is laid out in the Bible. And that Bible says that evil doers who have not redeemed themselves through Christ are damned to spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, so this is the sentence that God has deemed, in his infinite wisdom and love, to be justice--no matter how big or how little the sin, no matter how many, no matter how few.

The thing that's inherently flawed about this form of retribution is not just how brutal and maniacal it sounds, but how it is just logically incoherent. In order for a sin to deserve eternal damnation, it must be infinitely evil. How can any sin that man performs be infinitely evil? Or, if you like, how can man perform an infinite number of sins?

I mean, some might say that there are varying degrees of torture and suffering that those who are damned will undergo--some will have it harsh, others will get it a bit more easy--but so long as it's eternal, the degree of torture doesn't make a difference. It will all be the same in the end. Adding up one million plus one million plus one million (ad infinitum) equals the same as adding up point one plus ploint one plus point one (ad infinitum).

So the simple fact of Hell's eternity is, I think, enough to debunk God's justice and love.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:02 am

gib wrote:An eternity in Hell. Is this justice?

Now, before I begin, let me just say that I'm talking about the Biblical God--the Christian God in particular. The God whose holy word is laid out in the Bible. And that Bible says that evil doers who have not redeemed themselves through Christ are damned to spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, so this is the sentence that God has deemed, in his infinite wisdom and love, to be justice--no matter how big or how little the sin, no matter how many, no matter how few.

The thing that's inherently flawed about this form of retribution is not just how brutal and maniacal it sounds, but how it is just logically incoherent. In order for a sin to deserve eternal damnation, it must be infinitely evil. How can any sin that man performs be infinitely evil? Or, if you like, how can man perform an infinite number of sins?

I mean, some might say that there are varying degrees of torture and suffering that those who are damned will undergo--some will have it harsh, others will get it a bit more easy--but so long as it's eternal, the degree of torture doesn't make a difference. It will all be the same in the end. Adding up one million plus one million plus one million (ad infinitum) equals the same as adding up point one plus ploint one plus point one (ad infinitum).

So the simple fact of Hell's eternity is, I think, enough to debunk God's justice and love.


K: this is one of the many reasons why god doesn't/shouldn't exist......
he is called a father and as a father I do have some mild experience
in the matter and as a father looking at god's actions and reactions,
he is a terrible father.... Have ever looked at his actions from a parents
standpoint and realized how shitty he is as a father....
he claims to be about love, but man he is really all about
the punishment... now what kinda sick fuck father is all about the
punishment? seriously think about your childhood and how you were punished
then think about how god punishes and you think, holy crap, what an asshole....
Take his actions and compare them to any father you know and really,
eternal punishment unless you worship him for all eternity.... really dad...
what the hell...... like he is that suck fuck father who beats his child
to make him stronger and all he really doing is fucking up that child
to be a serial killer....... and look, some human being in some degree....
are serial killers because they were abuse and beaten as children...
kinda like us..... you say we aren't abused by god... I point out the concept
of guilt... guilt is used as abuse, to control people..... look at the concept of
hell, what a friendly place that is, you know where they torture people
because god disapproved of their choices.... I for one think, any time you
torture people for any reason, you no longer have the high moral ground....
look at the number of deaths god directly or indirectly caused in the bible...
it numbers in the millions.....not much of a father who orders the deaths
of millions and even order his children like Abraham to kill his son.....
I have little use for a father who orders a child to be killed just to prove
a point and what about Job... god basically tortures him to win a bet with Satan...
no, I have no use for a father who is that abusive to his children.....

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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby omar » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:36 am

Hello gib

The thing that's inherently flawed about this form of retribution is not just how brutal and maniacal it sounds, but how it is just logically incoherent. In order for a sin to deserve eternal damnation, it must be infinitely evil. How can any sin that man performs be infinitely evil? Or, if you like, how can man perform an infinite number of sins?


Actually there is a logic here, even if I disagree where it leads. The logic is that neither hell nor heaven is equitable to the actions of people. Just as hell is not deserved, neither is heaven and for the same reason. The defining moment is not the life of the person but the momentous choice that they make regarding the meaning of Jesus death.

So the simple fact of Hell's eternity is, I think, enough to debunk God's justice and love.


Well not quite. Unless you believe in predestination...
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:38 pm

I've said this before on the boards...

Hell is the anger of the implication of your spirit...

Think of all these secret societies that are planning hundreds of years in advance and use forgiveness, and always will because they think they can always find a sap...

Not gonna happen

That would be a long hell, but not eternal
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Meno_ » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:02 pm

Hell is, and always was and will be Other People. God's only mistake was creating other people. They make it hell.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:13 pm

I agree that since there is no everlasting sin, there can be no everlasting punishment. This is why Paul preaches universal salvation.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:27 pm

omar wrote:Actually there is a logic here, even if I disagree where it leads. The logic is that neither hell nor heaven is equitable to the actions of people. True. Just as hell is not deserved, neither is heaven and for the same reason. The defining moment is not the life of the person but the momentous choice that they make regarding the meaning of Jesus death.


So what does that mean? What kind of choice are you talking about? And why would the "wrong" choice entail that one deserves an eternity of hell?

omar wrote:Well not quite. Unless you believe in predestination...


Predestination would imply that God has decided, before you even have the opportunity to prove your worth or to make moral choices in life, whether you're destined for an eternity in Heaven or Hell. So yeah, I'll agree that predestination debunks God's justice and love... but why is that the only condition? Even if there weren't any predestination, how could one be deserving of eternal damnation?

Ecmandu wrote:Hell is the anger of the implication of your spirit...


Meaning what?

Ierrellus wrote:I agree that since there is no everlasting sin, there can be no everlasting punishment. This is why Paul preaches universal salvation.


Yes, this all hinges on eternal punishment. If the time served in Hell is finite, you don't have the "flaw" the OP pivots on. It's still pretty brutal in many cases, but one might still argue, with an extreme stretch, that maybe it is justice after all.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:48 pm

Gib, I'm sure you won't believe me...

This whole world is collective imagination

To that regard, spirits have implications...

If there is anger from self or others because of the implications of your spirit, you will find yourself in hell

I have to try to manage this shit, because innocent men are sent to hell forever, and women can't be eternally, or ever, punished for it...

I know it sounds like the twilight zone to you, but people are very political , and often not even knowing what they're talking about...

So all of that shit has to be managed ...

I once explained hell on these boards as...

"Imagine all the geniuses of horror writing, and multiply that by a trillion!"

Having been there myself, I'm extremely interested in mitigating it for others...
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:38 am

Ecmandu wrote:Gib, I'm sure you won't believe me...

You'd be surprised at what I can believe. ;)

This whole world is collective imagination

To that regard, spirits have implications...

^ It's that phrase there I'm not getting: "spirits have implications"--to me, a spirit is just first-person subjectivity--the experience of the world from the first person point of view; "implication" to me means something like logical entailment or a suggestion (like X implies Y). So in what way do you mean "spirits have implication"?

(Actually, I can *kind of* understand what you mean by this: in my view, one can say that experience entails further experience. <-- Do you mean something like this?)


If there is anger from self or others because of the implications of your spirit, you will find yourself in hell

Does this mean that anger begets further anger? And anger is retaliatory, so it comes back to you (like bad karma).

I have to try to manage this shit, because innocent men are sent to hell forever, and women can't be eternally, or ever, punished for it...

Is this why you're angry at women?

I know it sounds like the twilight zone to you, but people are very political , and often not even knowing what they're talking about...

You're talking to a drug user here.

So all of that shit has to be managed ...

I once explained hell on these boards as...

"Imagine all the geniuses of horror writing, and multiply that by a trillion!"

And yet, you survived this?

Having been there myself, <-- Yep. I'm extremely interested in mitigating it for others...


I'm surprised at how well adjusted you are for having gone through that.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby omar » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:18 am

Hello gib

So what does that mean? What kind of choice are you talking about? And why would the "wrong" choice entail that one deserves an eternity of hell?


The wrong choice entails undeserved punishment, the right choice undeserved bliss, so there is this sort of balance that makes it logical at least formally.
The choice of course is whether you accept Jesus as your personal savior. Don't get me wrong-- I am not advocating Christianity and its prejudice but saying that there is a certain logic to it.

Predestination would imply that God has decided, before you even have the opportunity to prove your worth or to make moral choices in life, whether you're destined for an eternity in Heaven or Hell. So yeah, I'll agree that predestination debunks God's justice and love... but why is that the only condition? Even if there weren't any predestination, how could one be deserving of eternal damnation?


I don't know since I am not God, but if I could write fiction I might say that the soul is indestructible. There is no end to it and so it's future state after the Day of Judgment is eternal by the nature of souls themselves and not by decree that the punishment of reward should be eternal in kind. Or it might be, as I said before, that the Way of God is eternal-- the punishment is eternal just as the reward is eternal and because each is granted on one decision, neither is merited or deserved.

As for predestination, maybe what we should remember is that Mercy trumps Fate, that is that even the object shaped for destruction can receive mercy and forgiveness. How does that work? All within Himself. Technically, in predestination, one the One chooses for real.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby James S Saint » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:51 pm

gib wrote:An eternity in Hell. Is this justice?

Now, before I begin, let me just say that I'm talking about the Biblical God--the Christian God in particular. The God whose holy word is laid out in the Bible. And that Bible says that evil doers who have not redeemed themselves through Christ are damned to spend eternity in Hell.

Then point out the specific instance.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 pm

omar wrote:The wrong choice entails undeserved punishment, the right choice undeserved bliss, so there is this sort of balance that makes it logical at least formally.
The choice of course is whether you accept Jesus as your personal savior. Don't get me wrong-- I am not advocating Christianity and its prejudice but saying that there is a certain logic to it.


Well, there's a certain balance to it, I suppose, but there is no logical case here that says God is just and loving after all.

omar wrote:I don't know since I am not God, but if I could write fiction I might say that the soul is indestructible. There is no end to it and so it's future state after the Day of Judgment is eternal by the nature of souls themselves and not by decree that the punishment of reward should be eternal in kind. So God does not sentence souls to an eternity in Hell or Heaven, it's just in the nature of souls to fall into one or the other? Souls may be eternal according to certain religious points of view, but how do they end up being stuck in Hell (or Heaven)? Or it might be, as I said before, that the Way of God is eternal-- the punishment is eternal just as the reward is eternal and because each is granted on one decision, neither is merited or deserved.

You do bring up an interesting point. No one's arguing that God is so unjust and unloving because he grants eternal bliss in Heaven to good souls (just as no one's infinitely bad, no one's infinitely good).

As for predestination, maybe what we should remember is that Mercy trumps Fate, that is that even the object shaped for destruction can receive mercy and forgiveness. How does that work? All within Himself. Technically, in predestination, one the One chooses for real.


If you're talking about the Calvinist concept of predestination, the idea is that we're all worthy of Hell (because of original sin). Some of us are predestined for Heaven because God has decided beforehand to show mercy. <-- But it's still all decided before any of us have a chance to prove our worth.

James S Saint wrote:Then point out the specific instance.


James,

I had some quotes but I left them at home (I'm at work). Will post them later.

In the meantime, why don't you tell me your position. Do you challenge the traditional understand that God sends wicked souls to an eternity of Hell?

Are you religious yourself?
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:27 am

Here you go James:

Matthew 25:46:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Daniel 12:2:
"Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence."

Revelation 14:11:
"14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name."
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:57 am

Gib,

Do you believe that it is just for 2+2=4 for all people regardless of situation?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:55 pm

James S Saint wrote:Gib,

Do you believe that it is just for 2+2=4 for all people regardless of situation?


YES!!! A just God would allow 2+2 to equal 5... 8-[

But seriously, you seem to be suggesting that an eternity in Heaven or Hell is an inevitability--like one's destiny in a deterministic universe--and God or the Bible is only warning us about the consequences of how we live our lives. Kind of like a parent might warn his children about the consequences of drugs.

This undermines God's omnipotence, of course, but there are tons of variants on this theology. Undermining God's omnibenevolence, as I'm doing in this thread, is another.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:33 am

This is how i feel about God

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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby James S Saint » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:23 am

gib wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Gib,

Do you believe that it is just for 2+2=4 for all people regardless of situation?


YES!!! A just God would allow 2+2 to equal 5... 8-[

But seriously, you seem to be suggesting that an eternity in Heaven or Hell is an inevitability--like one's destiny in a deterministic universe--and God or the Bible is only warning us about the consequences of how we live our lives. Kind of like a parent might warn his children about the consequences of drugs.

This undermines God's omnipotence, of course, but there are tons of variants on this theology. Undermining God's omnibenevolence, as I'm doing in this thread, is another.

A thing is either consistent or inconsistent. If inconsistent, allowing both the liar and the honest to receive the same favor, the lazy and the hard worker the same profit, then none can determine right from wrong, good from bad, need from waste. None could be guided fore there would be no compass. Even evolution couldn't work.

Would casting Man into that gray world of blindness and confusion be loving of the species? Would it be a just thing to do?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:44 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:This is how i feel about God


But Trixie, aren't you God?

James S Saint wrote:A thing is either consistent or inconsistent. If inconsistent, allowing both the liar and the honest to receive the same favor, the lazy and the hard worker the same profit, then none can determine right from wrong, good from bad, need from waste. None could be guided fore there would be no compass. At least not from God. Even evolution couldn't work.

??? :-k ???

Would casting Man into that gray world of blindness and confusion be loving of the species? Would it be a just thing to do?


An act is "loving" if it's for the sake of another--if you think it somehow benefits the other. It is just if it matches what the other deserves.

It's interesting that an act of love, though it may go well beyond what is just, what one deserves, isn't typically considered immoral, but often the opposite.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:03 pm

God is a metaphor for women, Cold, Uncaring, and Irrational, Do as I say Not as I do, Their own holiness has the most value...sitting in the heavens above with maximum bliss, sending people to hell and not caring about anyone's bliss but their own

Satan is a metaphor for Baphomet, the transsexual (transsexuals are a Spiritual Meme, that is why glamrockers wear makeup) Satan represents the Fetus as Female (Angel in heaven) And his transition to the male hellrealms, kicked out by the females in heaven, and his futile attempts to transition back into the heavens.

Satan is the accuser, and the Tree of Knowlege (Wise One). But automatically declared evil and a villian by the madgods, who do Do as I say Not as I do kind of morality.
Now Satan kind of is evil, because he got sick of pretending to be a hypocrit goodie-two shoes like the madgods, however not as evil as the gods because he didn't actually create Hell (Earth or EarthHell), just enjoys when people suffer with him in it.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Meno_ » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:55 pm

The logic here is paraphrased by Shakespeare best, To be or not to be ?'

The trans personal demands the being , and the intra-personal- the required self sacrificial instinct of preservation.

The simple logic in this is indisputable, and as the saying goes, it is in the simplest and not the most complex that truth abides.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Kriswest » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:06 pm

The problem with most major religions: someone else interprets the text for you and sections are taken out of context. That will screw religions up within one generation. The major religions have been behaving this way for many generations. Read without yanking verses out of context, use your truth without prejudice to interpret. Then compare to modern beliefs. It is hard but, if you honestly read original texts not the altered versions, you will find it all pretty interesting.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:04 pm

Kriswest wrote:The problem with most major religions: someone else interprets the text for you and sections are taken out of context. That will screw religions up within one generation. The major religions have been behaving this way for many generations. Read without yanking verses out of context, use your truth without prejudice to interpret. Then compare to modern beliefs. It is hard but, if you honestly read original texts not the altered versions, you will find it all pretty interesting.


Easier said than done, Kris. It implies learning an ancient language for one thing. And assuming I can find the originals on the internet, a huge part of the context involves the culture surrounding the author at the time, recent sociopolitical events, the authors intentions, etc.

This is all depends on what "truth" you want to get at. If you believe there is an objective truth that we can trace starting with today's religious scriptures and following them back to the originals, expecting to find maybe the word of God itself, then that's one truth. But there is also religion as a product of history, of all the translations, distortion, and skewing--Christianity for the 21st century--to get at that truth, you need only consult with whatever modern day experts are saying.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Kriswest » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:54 pm

:) well I actually meant original in a modern language. The oldest of the Old Testament.
I agree that you must take all that you said into figuring it all out. It is not a semester study nor just a one subject study. I did not say all that because I thought it was a gimme . :)
I do not see, through my readings and studies that the God today is what was intended. Fear and worries were greater back then, death was all around. People would have needed comfort and hope in order to work together and become a society. A priest would not have threatened, a priest would promise hope.
If you can , find some mythology books that date back at the very least 150 yrs. Rare as hell. Try maybe 100 or as old as possible. In any modern language. Then put them beside new versions and " reprints". The changes can be amusing or disturbing. All my old old texts are safed away access is a pain in the butt and an expensive trip.
I credit my grandparents for getting me into social studies, anthropology, sociology etc.
They also brought me to study animals and their behaviors to learn about humanity.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby gib » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:49 pm

I know some of the older texts don't consistently use the same word for Hell. Sometimes it's sheol, which actually means grave, and there's Hades, which is borrowed from the Greeks. I remember learning in school that the ancient Hebrews didn't really have a concept of an eternal realm of suffering in the afterlife for those who lived a wicked life. When they used the word "sheol", it was only to depict the unpleasant state of being dead, buried in the ground, rotting. But you can see how the wording can be carried over to the modern Christian concept of hell. To describe it as unpleasant, horrible, even eternal, fits very well. And for a Christian scholar who came later in history and didn't know much about the original meanings and connotations of these words, he could easily equate it with the concepts he was brought up on.
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Re: Why God is Inherently Wrong

Postby Kriswest » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:35 am

Yes and toss in attitude, ability to translate and personal belief, a whole paragraph would be changed. I would not follow a modern biblical God but, I might follow the original since I think the original intent for that God was positive not negative.
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