A Natural Religion

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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:21 pm

I just read part of this thread, so apologies…

Yes, everything changes, identity doesn't hold… right? Well if everything changes, "everything changes" is an identity…

There are tenured professors all around the world who study a branch of philosophy called "continuity" it may be continuity of consciousness or some other continuity.

Continuity is a fact of life.
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Ecmandu's second rule: calculate the set of your argument upon itself before you argue!

Stratification of motivational systems towards conspicuous consumption or extraneous drama cause all human ills - that was the most important thing you'll ever read in your life. - Ecmandu

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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
A natural religion would ask of science that it relinquish its amoral stance

Morality cannot be measured by science and it is wrong to think that it can

J Huxley believed that the scientific method for addressing claims about physical realities could be used to justify religious claims

Religious claims extend beyond the physical into the realm of the metaphysical so cannot be investigated by the scientific method
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:05 pm

Huxley disagrees. He proposes religion that denies the supernatural. As for the metaphysical, science goes there in projections of what the physical could become or even might be. When it comes to physical reality, science provides our best guess yet.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby CelineK » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:03 pm

all the huxleys have worked for the 'brave new world' or the planetary depopulation agenda. There is only one immutable Law/Code, and which is that holding the cosmos together, and which is called Electricity.


Ierrellus wrote:Recently, I've sent away for Julian Huxley's "Religion Without Revelation" which proposes a natural religion while opposing those of a supernatural persuasion. While waiting that book, I'd be interested in your ideas of what a natural religion might entail.
My thoughts: A religion can be called natural if it can show how to derive universal codes for human behavior from observations of physical phenomena.
Two such phenomena that might yield such information are ecosystems and eugenics.
The Laws Of Light, Emotions And Sexuality. http://www.celinek.net The time has come in the history of man's journey from his material jungle to his spiritual mountain top when it is imperative that he must live more and more in the cosmic Light universe of knowing, and less in the electric wave universe of sensing -- Walter Russell.
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A Money-Free Society Is Now Reality! The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth and not to fall under the will or legislative authority of man but only have the law of nature (immutable principles) for his rule. Samuel Adams. -- http://www.earthcustodians.net
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:10 pm

Denial of the physical in attempts to reach some spiritual level of experience is to destroy the very equipment necessary for turning sight into insight. We progress spiritually from the known (physical) to the unknown (Extensions of the physical).
A natural religion would be involved in the study of man for the purpose of achieving communities beneficial to all; it would have as its goal the well-being of all people. Bifurcate the physical from the spiritual and you would see this goal denied. That some aspects of this goal are evident in todays culture, in some parts of the world, gives us hope that the splintering of the human psyche into warring parts will have had its day.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:38 pm

CelineK wrote:all the huxleys have worked for the 'brave new world' or the planetary depopulation agenda. There is only one immutable Law/Code, and which is that holding the cosmos together, and which is called Electricity.


Ierrellus wrote:Recently, I've sent away for Julian Huxley's "Religion Without Revelation" which proposes a natural religion while opposing those of a supernatural persuasion. While waiting that book, I'd be interested in your ideas of what a natural religion might entail.
My thoughts: A religion can be called natural if it can show how to derive universal codes for human behavior from observations of physical phenomena.
Two such phenomena that might yield such information are ecosystems and eugenics.

Not true of the Huxley's. Aldous eschewed the "brave new world" mentality in favor of rugged individualism. Julian proposed a religion that would enhance human destiny.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby CelineK » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:38 pm

No elite gets a pass with me, after 2000 years of their medicine, the world has now enough of it. The devil lies in the details. Since when advocating for the drugging of an entire population to mold society is considered moral?

wiki
Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS was a British evolutionary biologist, eugenicist, and internationalist. He was a proponent of natural selection, and a leading figure in the mid-twentieth century modern evolutionary synthesis.

all the huxleys are into eugenics, intellectual and darwinian form of it (infectious globalism). And preach for the absolute control of the masses. This vid makes it crystal clear.

Aldous Huxley - The Ultimate Revolution (Berkeley Speech 1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WaUkZXKA30

I agree that only natural laws shape spirituality
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The Laws Of Light, Emotions And Sexuality. http://www.celinek.net The time has come in the history of man's journey from his material jungle to his spiritual mountain top when it is imperative that he must live more and more in the cosmic Light universe of knowing, and less in the electric wave universe of sensing -- Walter Russell.
=============================================================
A Money-Free Society Is Now Reality! The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth and not to fall under the will or legislative authority of man but only have the law of nature (immutable principles) for his rule. Samuel Adams. -- http://www.earthcustodians.net
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:34 pm

Thanks for the Huxley video. I still have difficulty believing that, just because Huxley envisaged certain futures he approved of them morally. The hero of Brave New World is a savage, is not the sheep of some futuristic mind manipulating
social elite.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby CelineK » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:00 pm

glad you likes it, on my site you will find extremely informative materials such as this one, in support of "mindset transitioning".

Ierrellus wrote:Thanks for the Huxley video. I still have difficulty believing that, just because Huxley envisaged certain futures he approved of them morally. The hero of Brave New World is a savage, is not the sheep of some futuristic mind manipulating
social elite.
The Laws Of Light, Emotions And Sexuality. http://www.celinek.net The time has come in the history of man's journey from his material jungle to his spiritual mountain top when it is imperative that he must live more and more in the cosmic Light universe of knowing, and less in the electric wave universe of sensing -- Walter Russell.
=============================================================
A Money-Free Society Is Now Reality! The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth and not to fall under the will or legislative authority of man but only have the law of nature (immutable principles) for his rule. Samuel Adams. -- http://www.earthcustodians.net
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:40 pm

I'm gonna check out the Huxley video and the links in your sig CelineNK... I like having to get my mind around things.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Mackerni » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:00 am

My religion of Exaltism is defined by its natural behaviors.

Think of this: there had to be an impersonal "thing" that created the Universe. Something at one point had the energy that existed before the big bang happened, and it somehow was allowed to make the Universe we are in right now.

Then think of this: the only reason why we are in the Universe the way we are, is things like the Universe itself, as well as the Milky Way's center and the Sun, our star. Without these things the Earth couldn't exist. Aren't these Gods personal? The sun is more personal than the center of the Milky Way, and the Milky Way is more personal than the Universe itself. No, I don't have to deify these things - I could also deify any parent for directly involving the creation of you, but I see it as awe that these things were able to even exist.

So, under my umbrella turns, I'm a panendeist, who sees the validity of an impersonal God bigger than our Universe and many personal Gods inside of it. That would be considered henotheism. Besides that, I see all live forms as the ability to become divine, in something I like to call "Divine Selection", which is the concept that natural and artificial selection will be replaced one day with. This is a natural theosis.

I like the concept of a natural religion, because I really don't believe in the supernatural myself. Even my panendeism is just some naturally occurring thing that is outside our Universe. Also, I'm pretty strictly monist, type physicalism style. Hence, I can't believe in souls, spirits, ghosts, anything outside mass and motion.

In conclusion, if you want a natural religion that believes in natural and species deifications go with the Faith of Exaltation, my religion. If this isn't how you view the world, that is fine too. I would say most people are dualists anyways.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:25 pm

Mackerni wrote:My religion of Exaltism is defined by its natural behaviors.

Think of this: there had to be an impersonal "thing" that created the Universe. Something at one point had the energy that existed before the big bang happened, and it somehow was allowed to make the Universe we are in right now.

There was no Big Bang. But in what way is "Exaltism" a religion?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Mackerni » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:16 am

James S Saint wrote:
Mackerni wrote:There was no Big Bang. But in what way is "Exaltism" a religion?


It's a religion with no followers. I'm not charismatic, in fact I'm pretty creepy in real life. Nobody will probably follow me, unless I at least publish a book or make this faith my only goal. I thought that by putting an article on NRM Wikia that someone would see it and ask me about it, but the only people that ask me about it are my Internet friends, which I have few of. Even my Internet friends don't agree with most of my stances.

Pity me. (Or join my religion, either way it fine with me.)
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:59 pm

Mackerni wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Mackerni wrote:There was no Big Bang. But in what way is "Exaltism" a religion?


It's a religion with no followers. I'm not charismatic, in fact I'm pretty creepy in real life. Nobody will probably follow me, unless I at least publish a book or make this faith my only goal. I thought that by putting an article on NRM Wikia that someone would see it and ask me about it, but the only people that ask me about it are my Internet friends, which I have few of. Even my Internet friends don't agree with most of my stances.

Pity me. (Or join my religion, either way it fine with me.)

Well, I have asked you of it. But I have to say, that your description so far says that it isn't actually a religion at all, merely a hopeful thought (although of what, I am not certain). Is there anything that you can add to what you have said to update that assessment?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Mackerni » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:17 am

James S Saint wrote:Well, I have asked you of it. But I have to say, that your description so far says that it isn't actually a religion at all, merely a hopeful thought (although of what, I am not certain). Is there anything that you can add to what you have said to update that assessment?


I consider the religion a sect of Terasem. Terasem only has roughly 32,000 followers. Read this: http://nrm.wikia.com/wiki/Exaltism The belief of the afterlife and of theosis is identical to Terasem, but the idea of idolizing nature (panendeism and henotheism) is purely a creation of my faith.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:56 pm

Mackerni wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Well, I have asked you of it. But I have to say, that your description so far says that it isn't actually a religion at all, merely a hopeful thought (although of what, I am not certain). Is there anything that you can add to what you have said to update that assessment?


I consider the religion a sect of Terasem. Terasem only has roughly 32,000 followers. Read this: http://nrm.wikia.com/wiki/Exaltism The belief of the afterlife and of theosis is identical to Terasem, but the idea of idolizing nature (panendeism and henotheism) is purely a creation of my faith.

After reading up on some of that, I have to ask:
In your religion, what is a god? Precisely what distinguishes a god from anything else?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Mackerni » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:44 pm

James S Saint wrote:After reading up on some of that, I have to ask:
In your religion, what is a god? Precisely what distinguishes a god from anything else?


Thank you for asking this. I know I have to clarify this.

Alright. So as I was saying before, there are seven definite concepts of God. This how I break it down:

-Omnipotence. Infinite energy, possible to be held by non-living as well as living things. The things we know that can hold the most energy are non-living, though.
-Uniqueness. Living and non-living things can be unique, but things that are living tend to be more unique than things than non-living.
-Ubiquity. Being present everywhere. By the definition of being one living thing, this is impossible to obtain for sentient beings. Non-living things can have this.
-Eternalness. The state of existing forever. Again, life has a definite beginning and end, and non-living things can last much longer than people.
-Wisdom, or omniscience. Knowledge can only come from the living. Something that is not living cannot be wise as well.
-All-good, or benevolence. Typically we attribute being good with having good intentions, which only living things can have - although functions that the nonliving do can be considered to be good by nature.
-Versatility/Freedom. The ability to make choices. This is attributed solely to the living. Nonliving things never have any choices whatsoever.

So, let me break this down for you:

Living: Freedom, Benevolence, and Wisdom are all characteristics of living things, typically.
Non-Living: Eternalness, Ubiquity, and omnipotence are all characteristics of non-living things, typically.
The only point where they overlap is with uniqueness, for things that are both living and nonliving can have.

On the other hand, there are non-living deities that possesses much of these qualities. Deities are not unique, per se, but they can be nearly eternal, ubiquitous, and omnipotent.

I'm going to go from the impersonal to the most personal. This is the breakdown:

Omniverse, Local Multiverse, Our Universe, Superclusters, Galaxies, Stars, Planets, Societies, Governments, Corporations, Parents, and Yourself.

Omniverse:
-Directly or indirectly creates all Multiverses - Omnipotence
-Is present everywhere, and contains all the mass that exists, including the Universe - Ubiquitous
-(Presumably) existed forever - Eternal
-Uniqueness - There is literally only ONE Omniverse. It is literally - impossible to have two of them.
Things it does not have
Freedom, Benevolence or Wisdom - But life with omniscience of the Omniverse would have those three things.
FINAL JUDGMENT: 7/7 Qualities. GOD

Local Multiverse:
-Directly or indirectly creates all Universes - Omnipotence
-Its presence is nearly endless. - Ubiquitous
-Existed for a very long time. - Eternal
-There are probably more than one multiverse, so it's not entirely unique, but what it holds inside itself is unique unto itself.
Things it does not have
Freedom, Benevolence or Wisdom - But life with omniscience of the Multiverse would be able have a high amount of all three things.
FINAL JUDGMENT: 6/7 Qualities DEITY

Our Universe, Superclusters, Galaxies, and Stars:
Same thing as Multiverse only more localized.

Earth:
-Only responsible for its own power, much of it which comes from the Sun - NOT omnipotent.
-Its presence is concentrated by its gravity and everything it pulls towards it. Its presence can only be felt as far away as satellites that orbit it. - NOT ubiquitous.
-The Earth existed for a long time. Almost eternally.
-Earth is very unique with its flora and fauna that most planets don't have.
-Freedom, benevolence, or wisdom - Life with omniscience of Earth (like modern humans) would have a lot of power, but not to the scale of ultimate freedom, benevolence, or wisdom. People need to outside their planet to have all three of those qualities.
FINAL JUDGMENT: 2/7 Qualities NOT A DEITY

Obviously anything smaller than our planet, like societies, governments, corporations, parents, and the self would not hold the characteristics of being divine, although all of those things could be viewed as "living", nothing that is living is divine. The only thing that (some) life has is its unique qualities. Like how it is nearly impossible for anyone to have your exact look or DNA, or talk and think like you. There is a certain degree of freedom, benevolence, and wisdom that nearly all human life possesses, but its scope is limited to terrestrial matters. The Omniverse works with a top-down approach, achieving all of the qualities of the non-living deities, whereas its creations, life, works from the bottom-up. We have to work with nature to mend the differences between us so that one day we may create something beyond comprehension, something that can possess all seven of those qualities at the same time. Like an Omniverse that could also be living and thinking.

Doesn't that sound like something you may already know of?
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:11 pm

I wasn't asking what the word means to everyone. I was asking specifically of the meaning of the word in your religion. Do you have both living and non-living gods in your religion?

Mackerni wrote:-Omnipotence. Infinite energy, possible to be held by non-living as well as living things. The things we know that can hold the most energy are non-living, though.

Well, there can only be one of those.

Mackerni wrote:Omniverse, Local Multiverse, Our Universe, Superclusters, Galaxies, Stars, Planets, Societies, Governments, Corporations, Parents, and Yourself.

Omniverse:
-Directly or indirectly creates all Multiverses - Omnipotence
-Is present everywhere, and contains all the mass that exists, including the Universe - Ubiquitous
-(Presumably) existed forever - Eternal
-Uniqueness - There is literally only ONE Omniverse. It is literally - impossible to have two of them.
Things it does not have
Freedom, Benevolence or Wisdom - But life with omniscience of the Omniverse would have those three things.
FINAL JUDGMENT: 7/7 Qualities. GOD

So, I take it that you believe in more than one universe. Can you give some description of how that works? What would be in one universe but not another?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 24795
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Mackerni » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:09 pm

James S Saint wrote:I wasn't asking what the word means to everyone. I was asking specifically of the meaning of the word in your religion. Do you have both living and non-living gods in your religion?


There are four attributes of God that can only truly be applied to a non-living identity, and three that can be. The Omniverse is not living, but as I see it when the Omega Point is truly breached The Omniverse itself is going to be alive, with the extropy-consciousness of post-humans, thereby fulfilling my prophecy of true divinity.

James S Saint wrote:Well, there can only be one of those.


True. However, like how I said the Earth is eternal, and it is not, I see things like the Sun, the galactic black holes, the Universe, and Multiverse as being nearly those qualities. If we were able to harness all the energy of the Sun we'd probably be able to do incredible things, such as visiting other star systems relevantly quickly (yes I know nothing can go faster than the speed of light, but still...).

James S Saint wrote:So, I take it that you believe in more than one universe. Can you give some description of how that works? What would be in one universe but not another?


I am not an expert on physics. I saw a diagram of different Universes that live in different time and spatial dimensions and according to that chart one time dimension and three-spatial dimensions is the only way that life can exist. So there are probably a lot of Universes which don't harbor any kind of meaningful existence.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Evidence of a natural god is found in extensions of DNA as described by the anthropic principle.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:38 pm

Religion divorced from science produces cults of imagination in which the dogma has nothing to do with physical reality. Science vs religion, the battle over the last few hundred years, would not have had to take place if religion could have recognized the personal experience of DNA in genetic evolution as sufficient evidence of a God who acts in the here and now of the real world. Where the natural is eschewed in favor of some dogma, the supernatural, with all of its superstition, will dominate religious thinking. In the throes of supernatural thought, many see the Earth as inferior to some sky Heaven and consequently overlook the ecosystems that make life on Earth possible.
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby phyllo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:06 pm

Physical existence would not be seen as inferior to spiritual existence. Mortifying the body would make no sense.

Knowledge and understanding would come from interactions with the physical world rather than from a retreat away from the world.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:08 pm

phyllo wrote:Physical existence would not be seen as inferior to spiritual existence. Mortifying the body would make no sense.

Knowledge and understanding would come from interactions with the physical world rather than from a retreat away from the world.

Exactly!!!
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:38 pm

Experiments with LSD and the like in the past midcentury proved that brain/mind, with the aid of certain chemicals can go to those places considered spiritual, once arrived at via meditation, fasting., etc. So, if our spirituality is discovered to be a matter of brain chemistry, why would we continue to relegate such states to afterlife or continue to describe them using abstract metaphysics?
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Re: A Natural Religion

Postby phyllo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:56 pm

Are drug induced states spiritual states?

Are meditative states spiritual states?

To answer one would need a very clear definition of 'spiritual'. And even then ... how could you really know if you are in a spiritual state when you have abandoned external references and you are purely in you own head?

How can you know that it's not all a dream or hallucination?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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