Atheist minister too much for the United Church

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Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:39 pm

‘Sad day’ for United Church, says atheist minister Gretta Vosper

Church committee recommends defrocking popular minister at West Hill United Church in Scarborough


Gretta Vosper, the popular and controversial United Church of Canada minister who calls herself an atheist, should no longer be a minister, a review committee has recommended.

“In our opinion, she is not suitable to continue in ordained ministry because she does not believe in God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit,” the church’s Toronto Conference Review Committee concluded in a 39-page report released Wednesday.

“We have concluded that if Gretta Vosper were before us today, seeking to be ordained,” said the report, the committee “would not recommend her.”

“After prayer and much discussion,” the 23-person committee voted 19 to 4 in favour of a motion that found Vosper “unsuitable to continue serving.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/0 ... urges.html
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Kriswest » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:09 pm

So what is your opinion on it? I have to agree with the church. They view her as an infiltrator intentionally destroying their belief system. Why else join the church if you do not follow their system?
They hired her to do a specific job, she is not doing it. Why should an employer be expected to keep an employee that is going against their business?
Last edited by Kriswest on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:16 pm

I think that a minister in a Christian church has to believe in god as a minimum requirement.

There was a long discussion about it a couple of years(?) ago. This is the latest update on the situation.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Kriswest » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:19 pm

I agree.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:59 am

Let's fire all the state employees who believe in god since we're supposed to have a separation of church and state.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Kriswest » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:14 am

Not the same thing. A church hires ministers, part of the qualifications expected is a belief in that church's religion.
If you need a heart surgeon, you would not get a podiatrist. If a podiatrist tells you that he or she is a heart surgeon and that person operates and fails,,, well... False pretenses.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:19 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Let's fire all the state employees who believe in god since we're supposed to have a separation of church and state.

Let's fire all of the government employees who don't believe in the USA (that would be most of the current administration).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby MagsJ » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:53 pm

I can't say I've ever met an atheist ordained minister... didn't think one existed.

Was she atheist before being ordained? or did that epiphany happen after?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:28 pm

She was ordained in 1992 and became the minister at West Hill United Church in 1997.

In her own words :
My congregation belongs to The United Church of Canada, probably the most progressive Christian denomination in the world. It ordained women over seventy years ago and has been ordaining openly LGBTQ leaders for decades. But theologically it remains in the closet about the human construction of religion and all its trapping. I couldn’t stay in that closet.
I came out as an atheist in 2001.* After I spontaneously preached a sermon in which I completely deconstructed the idea of a god named God, rather than fire me, the congregation chose to step out on an unmarked path. With them, I’ve laboured, lamented, lost, and loved. It’s hard road but a worthy one with no finish line in sight.

*It wasn’t until 2013 that I actually identified myself as an atheist and I appreciate that others have pointed out this discrepancy so that I can explain it. In 2001, I made it clear that I did not believe in a supernatural, interventionist, divine being. At first, I identified as a non-theist as I do in my first book, With or Without God, published in 2008. In my second book, Amen, I felt the need to further distinguish myself from those who used the term “non-theist” but retained a belief in the supernatural aspects of god; there, I identified as a theological non-realist. In 2013, I embraced the term “atheist” which means, literally, no belief in a theistic, supernatural being. So, in 2001 I shared my beliefs which were consistent with atheism but I did not actually identify as an atheist until 2013. Hope that clears up that discrepancy which isn’t really a discrepancy as it comes to my beliefs, but is one when it comes to how I described those beliefs.

http://www.grettavosper.ca/about/
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:39 pm

phyllo wrote:She was ordained in 1992 and became the minister at West Hill United Church in 1997.

In her own words :
My congregation belongs to The United Church of Canada, probably the most progressive Christian denomination in the world. It ordained women over seventy years ago and has been ordaining openly LGBTQ leaders for decades. But theologically it remains in the closet about the human construction of religion and all its trapping. I couldn’t stay in that closet.
I came out as an atheist in 2001.* After I spontaneously preached a sermon in which I completely deconstructed the idea of a god named God, rather than fire me, the congregation chose to step out on an unmarked path. With them, I’ve laboured, lamented, lost, and loved. It’s hard road but a worthy one with no finish line in sight.

*It wasn’t until 2013 that I actually identified myself as an atheist and I appreciate that others have pointed out this discrepancy so that I can explain it. In 2001, I made it clear that I did not believe in a supernatural, interventionist, divine being. At first, I identified as a non-theist as I do in my first book, With or Without God, published in 2008. In my second book, Amen, I felt the need to further distinguish myself from those who used the term “non-theist” but retained a belief in the supernatural aspects of god; there, I identified as a theological non-realist. In 2013, I embraced the term “atheist” which means, literally, no belief in a theistic, supernatural being. So, in 2001 I shared my beliefs which were consistent with atheism but I did not actually identify as an atheist until 2013. Hope that clears up that discrepancy which isn’t really a discrepancy as it comes to my beliefs, but is one when it comes to how I described those beliefs.

http://www.grettavosper.ca/about/


K: actually, I would hire her for a church and here's why...
she is an honest seeker of the truth and isn't that why
we are all here..... To be an honest seeker of the truth be
it, revelation or be it rational thought, I would much prefer
an honest seeker to one who has predetermined the truth....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:40 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: actually, I would hire her for a church and here's why...
she is an honest seeker of the truth and isn't that why
we are all here..... To be an honest seeker of the truth be
it, revelation or be it rational thought, I would much prefer
an honest seeker to one who has predetermined the truth....

Kropotkin

And for what reason would you call her or that church "Christian"?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:05 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: actually, I would hire her for a church and here's why...
she is an honest seeker of the truth and isn't that why
we are all here..... To be an honest seeker of the truth be
it, revelation or be it rational thought, I would much prefer
an honest seeker to one who has predetermined the truth....

Kropotkin

And for what reason would you call her or that church "Christian"?



K:Church is for those who wants their already confirmed beliefs
validated....a true seeker would never go to a church that
is only interested in validating already confirmed beliefs......
I hold that love is part of the answer to our issues,
does that make me a Christian because Jesus believed in love?
Jesus was also a communist and radical (stood up against income inequality)
also beliefs I hold. Does this make me a Christian? I am far more
Christian then a whole lot of Christians but I don't self-identify that
way.....
You hold to the idea that to be called something is to hold certain
beliefs....You cannot be a Christian unless you believe in X, Y and Z.....
and only those beliefs will make you a Christian........
I believe you can be a Christian without belief in god or
even a belief in Jesus.......... It is not about god or Jesus
that make one a Christian..... It is about having beliefs that
make love a priority or working with the poor as Jesus did or
working to reduce income inequality, these idea's are what
makes one a Christian.... Not necessarily belief in god or Jesus himself....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby James S Saint » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:18 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K:Church is for those who wants their already confirmed beliefs
validated....a true seeker would never go to a church that
is only interested in validating already confirmed beliefs......

So scientists should attend Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, and Temples??

Do they have to go to all of them, or will one due?

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I hold that love is part of the answer to our issues,
does that make me a Christian because Jesus believed in love?
Jesus was also a communist and radical (stood up against income inequality)
also beliefs I hold. Does this make me a Christian?

If you don't know the answer to that, not only are you not Christian, but most certainly not in a position to conclude what other people should do regarding their church.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:You hold to the idea that to be called something is to hold certain
beliefs....

Duhhhh! :-?

So you believe that a Republican should run the Democratic party and claim to be non-Democratic?
A Conservative should run the Liberal party and claim to be non-Liberal?
An Orthodox Muslim should be in charge of the dept of Science?
A KKK leader should run the AACP and claim to be non-black?
A Man should be running the Women's League of America (well .. visibly) and claim to be non-female?
And of course a Christian certainly should run Atheist Alliance International and claim to be non-atheist?

It is all merely names, right? They shouldn't mean anything.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I believe you can be a Christian without belief in god or
even a belief in Jesus.........

Well, considering your complete ignorance of Christianity, I can see why you might conclude that nonsense.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: It is not about god or Jesus
that make one a Christian.....

:lol:

Tell me, is ignorance as bliss as they say?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: It is about having beliefs that
make love a priority or working with the poor as Jesus did or
working to reduce income inequality, these idea's are what
makes one a Christian.... Not necessarily belief in god or Jesus himself....

Kropotkin

No. That is Liberal Socialism seeking to enslave the population.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:49 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K:Church is for those who wants their already confirmed beliefs
validated....a true seeker would never go to a church that
is only interested in validating already confirmed beliefs......

So scientists should attend Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, and Temples??

Do they have to go to all of them, or will one due?

K: it depends on what one is seeking, doesn't it?

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I hold that love is part of the answer to our issues,
does that make me a Christian because Jesus believed in love?
Jesus was also a communist and radical (stood up against income inequality)
also beliefs I hold. Does this make me a Christian?


J: If you don't know the answer to that, not only are you not Christian, but most certainly not in a position to conclude what other people should do regarding their church.

K: I was asking a question which forces one to decide based on their experience
to decide whether I was or wasn't a Christian...

Peter Kropotkin wrote:You hold to the idea that to be called something is to hold certain
beliefs....

Duhhhh! :-?

J: So you believe that a Republican should run the Democratic party and claim to be non-Democratic?
A Conservative should run the Liberal party and claim to be non-Liberal?
An Orthodox Muslim should be in charge of the dept of Science?
A KKK leader should run the AACP and claim to be non-black?
A Man should be running the Women's League of America (well .. visibly) and claim to be non-female?
And of course a Christian certainly should run Atheist Alliance International and claim to be non-atheist?
It is all merely names, right? They shouldn't mean anything.

K: in fact, it is all merely names.... does the name James St. James tell us about you?
does it tell us who you are and what you believe in? no, no name does that.....
I am a democrat, but democrats have a very large tent with many, many different
beliefs....and yet we still call ourselves democrats.... some beliefs that are so
diverse it makes one wonder how we can still to be in the same party, but yet we are....
The GOP party has three distinct parts to it, the small government part, the
evangelical aspect and the law and order types... Three very different parts
and yet all call themselves Republicans..... for now.. The GOP will soon break up
into pieces and reform in some aspect....

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I believe you can be a Christian without belief in god or
even a belief in Jesus.........

J: Well, considering your complete ignorance of Christianity, I can see why you might conclude that nonsense.

K: I spent years studying various religions including Christianity including
Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism (my personal favorite)
among others....which is why I have an universal view of religion.....

Peter Kropotkin wrote: It is not about god or Jesus
that make one a Christian.....

:lol:

J: Tell me, is ignorance as bliss as they say?

K: I wouldn't know.....

Peter Kropotkin wrote: It is about having beliefs that
make love a priority or working with the poor as Jesus did or
working to reduce income inequality, these idea's are what
makes one a Christian.... Not necessarily belief in god or Jesus himself....

Kropotkin


J: No. That is Liberal Socialism seeking to enslave the population.



K: and we reach your ignorance...... I have no intention or goal or
reason to enslave anyone....Stupid statements like that show
your complete misunderstanding of liberalism and socialism.....
Of course being James, you never actually go into why liberal socialism
would or could enslave anyone but never let your propaganda get in the way
of facts...Because facts have a liberal socialist slant.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: Atheist minister too much for the United Church

Postby Kriswest » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:23 am

Really guys, it just comes down to : Jane said she could do a job , has certificates to prove it, then once hired does not do the job. The church is in the right on this.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Atheist minister NOT too much for the United Church

Postby phyllo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm

In surprise settlement, United Church agrees Toronto’s atheist minister can keep her job

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/1 ... r-job.html

:lol:
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