Guns and God

Yes but the common Christian doesn’t know that at all, they have no idea about the totality of the bible and teachings or theology that has studied, reasoned and explained. What happens is some NRA member cherry picks the “buy a sword” bible quote then they all hop on it like crazy gun toting Yosemite Sam’s. The common Christian just doesn’t do their own due diligence on their own belief system. But as I said in another thread, the most compelling way to control the masses is to convince them that their God wants them to do it…

China presents a religious paradox. China says it is illegal to be Christian. Yet the Bible says, “Follow the laws of the land”. So what’s a Christian to do? He enters a Catch 22.

Sure, that’s a possibility. But there’s a difference between ‘many Christians disagree about what this passage means’ and ‘Christians who own guns are ignorant cowards ignoring the words of Jesus’. Jesus told His disciples to go buy weapons. You think it was meant figuratively for some reason? That could be an interesting discussion.

Of course I do. You didn’t just present your interpretation of the Bible. You accused Christians of being stupid, cowardly, and ignoring the words of Jesus based on your interpretation of the Bible. An interpretation, by the way, that didn’t include the single most relevant quotation from Jesus until I pointed it out to you.

In this instance it seems they do. If your goal is actually to shit on Christians in general and not to discuss Guns and God, that’s fine, but maybe bring up some other specific instance and see how it plays out, because this one didn’t go your way.

Such as buying swords you mean?

Strange that somebody who knows Christianity so well and has been studying theology for 20 years would choose to discuss Christians and gun ownership without bringing up Luke 22:36. Did you omit it on purpose because it worked against your oh-so-scholarly attempt to bash Christians, or had you simply never heard of it?

Sorry, i never made the claim or accused Christians of being cowardly, stupid, or ignoring the words of Jesus. I only stated perhaps they are ignorant or ignore it,or cowardly. Ignorance of Christianity among Christians is fairly prevalent, in case you weren’t aware. Just as most people couldn’t name the 2nd president of the United States. People are generally ignorant about things. Yes, people are generally stupid. Yes, people are generally Christian as well, in this country. Coincidence? Maybe.

However, they could be none of the above (stupid or cowardly), as I added the qualifier “perhaps”. Ignorance is not a negative thing, we all have ignorance. So stop putting words in my mouth, its no wonder you don’t understand what is being said when apparently you read things the way you want them to mean, not what the author means. Your proneness towards confirmation bias has been noted from other specific threads as well. You obviously do not have a good understanding of the bible to be willing to stick with a obscure bible passage that flies against the face of the entire context of the bible.

No, for the sake of clarity, I don’t know, I only provided possible descriptions of why they act the way they do. Now your snide comments are clearly biased to an argument you have already lost - that you don’t understand once again this isn’t just “my interpretation of the bible” or how rationalizations must occur in the greater context of the bible to provide Christian dogma, due to what appears to be contradictions or what not.

But you seem to have a grudge against whatever new atheist movement you apparently read about, which has nothing to do with me. Apparently your confirmation bias won’t allow you to think otherwise.

Oh, good then. Well now that I’ve shown you that it isn’t true, and you never had any particular conviction in it anyway, I guess we have nothing left to discuss. You wondered if Christians in favor of gun ownership were being ignorant or cowardly, I explained why they aren’t, and all’s well that ends well. It’s not as though you have some vested interest in proving that Christian gun owners are ignorant and cowardly. Any perception that you were using every rhetorical trick in the book to shoot down any biblical reference that explains why some Christians favor gun ownership was clearly that; just my perception.

Because after all, you weren’t ASSERTING that they were ignorant, and you certainly weren’t DEFENDING that position for the past two days.

You were just wondering if they were.

Clearly.

Hello ANGRY,
I think that it is important to note that there is no causal link shown in your post. Phenomenon A (Christianity) happens along phenomenon B (gun ownership) but there is no causal link, such as B must be preceded by A, because in many case it isn’t. Christianity can be adopted and made to sound as a justification, but this is rare. I just think that people that like guns can also happen to like Christ.
The question is, I guess, whether Christ is pro-guns. My answer is that Christ is against many other things as well, such as wealth, which no one is asking any Christian to renounce on account of their belief. Secondly, while Jesus is against sin, is is not a sin to own a gun but how you use your gun. The Bible is filled with many kings and soldiers, armed and dangerous, who did God’s will, so owning a gun is not necessarily against God’s will. Third, it seems implied that what Christian’s do is consequential upon their status as Christians but this is not self evident and it could be argued that whether you own or not a gun is inconsequential to a right-relationship with Christ.
I have seen a pro-Trump (cnn.com/2016/03/14/politics/ … index.html) pastor said that Bernie needs to get saved. It doesn’t matter that Bernie’s message is more in-line with Jesus’ “sell everything and give it to the poor” mantra; to a Protestant Christian the deciding factor is whether you accept Jesus as your personal savior.

Sorry I never argued against your accusation that I accused Christians of being cowardly, stupid, or ignoring the words of Jesus until the last post until the last post. I ignored it previously because, well, I didn’t care. You were incorrect and I didn’t feel that it deserved a response. Only upon your repetition did I decide to clarify. After all, what I wrote is there in plain English, so if you want to argue a strawman go ahead, but it doesn’t reflect poorly on me as apparently you think it might. Then you refer to it as “Past two days” of discussion as if it were some intense discussion and accusation on your part. Nonsense Try the past two posts.

But unfortunately you didn’t show it was true that Christians follow Christianity by toting guns. The only thing that you have shown here is that you are angry apparently with how I presented the OP. Oh well, obviously you didn’t understand it as you thought you did, again. In order to show that Christians aren’t ignorant of their religion by toting guns, or too cowardly to follow their religion as I explained (which is coherent, common multi denominational theology) or that they aren’t “stupid”, in that they know what the religion states but are “stupidly” favoring life on this planet and other material things instead of “treasures in heaven”, then you’ll need to provide a standard theology on the matter. I don’t know of any church myself that points out that bible quote of buying a sword as the ok to go buy guns and tote them around wherever you go, or what have you. I know of multiple denominations that explain the pacificsm of Jesus Christ and in no way shape or form promote gun use whatsoever. As I already alluded to early, anyone can pick out any quote in a bible and make it mean whatever they want, but that is why theology and religious doctrines are built on the greater context of the bible. But you have shown that you don’t have a good comprehension of the greater context, it also shows in your response style in that you attempt to parse certain sentences away from my context, which in turn can cause what I say to lose some of its original meaning. You have done that in other threads. Perhaps its just another indication of your inability to take things in context, as shown here in this thread on your defense of guns and Christianity

Yes you’re right, there is no causal link here. But there is a correlation in that many Christians in the U.S. do support guns, gun ownership and own guns. I think people can like guns and like Christ, because it already has happened. But as I contend they are not following Christ’s teachings. I wouldn’t say the bible would claim owning a gun is a sin, that is too far. I did say the points on why it isn’t what they should do, though, as a Christian. What Jesus’ follows should do, and what “sin” is, are two different things theologically and biblically.

The O.T. Certainly is more violent and filled with the condoning of war, killing, slave ownership, etc… but that is the O.T. and was put in a new light by the N.T. in that Jesus provided the way, the truth, the life for all, which contrasted starkly from the O.T… Christian theology does state "a New covenant’ occurred and rationalize all the evil of the god of the O.T. away by saying we have to follow Jesus “now” since its a “new covenant”. God’s will is hard to define, it seems even in the Bible god wills choice and doesn’t stress certain things as utmost important, but god does say ultimately to sell all your possessions. Is that still god’s will that you sell all your possessions? I wouldn’t say so, necessarily. God leaves room in Christian theology for you to make your own choices… but he does make it explicit what he prefers in both pacifism (turn your cheek), not owning anything, etc so that you can build your treasures in heaven. Which as a Christian, the intelligent thing would be to make things better in your after life, not this trivial life that is infinitely shorter in comparison.

Yeah, this is the big part of it. Guns and Christ are both features of “Old timey Americana” and obviously there’s an entire political ideology based around preserving that sort of thing. It would be silly to pretend that Christians tend to justify their gun ownership in terms of their Christianity (Just as they don’t justify their Christianity in terms of the 2nd Amendment). What’s important is that the justification exists if it’s needed.

I also showed you the part of the Bible where Jesus explicitly advises his followers to arm themselves. But don’t let the facts stop you.

Why would I do that since you aren’t asserting it? You only said ‘perhaps’. Since neither of us are claiming that Christians are ignorant or cowardly, where is this notion that I should be refuting it coming from? You wondered aloud (without asserting!) if Christians were ignorant of the Bible or too cowardly to follow it, I reminded you (since you already knew, theologian that you are) that Jesus approves of his followers buying weapons, that his closest disciples travelled armed, and that Christ himself chased people around with a whip at one point.

Nobody in this thread is actually claiming that Christians are stupid or cowardly with regards to their stance on firearms…sounds like the issue is resolved to me.

Hello ANGRY

Unlike guns, which do not appear in the Bible, money is mentioned. You cannot serve both God and money, yet how many people, including yourself, have taken a vow of poverty for the sake of serving Christ perfectly? I don’t see the ownership of a gun as consequential upon a right-relationship with God. You are saved, according to the Christian narrative, by accepting Jesus as your savior. It is how you use that gun that may be not Christian. On the O.P. I saw nothing that demonstrates that owning a gun is problematic for a Christian, unless, of course, you use that weapon to kill people, but then the gun is just an accident present with the sinful character and not the cause of sin. Killing someone with your bare hands does not make the killing justified. Again I see no connection.

You seem equivocal in your argument then, inconsistent at least. On what is explicitly noted, you allow nuance and on what is not even mentioned (guns or a ban on guns), you are certain that this is unchristian. God leaves room for you to make your own choices, but not all choices are of the same quality. You can act in a Christian or in an un-Christian way. Certainly this seemed part of your argument before when it came to guns.

Here is another example of grouping together things that are not connected. Pacifism does not require that you renounce guns. In fact I would say that turning the other cheek is more meaningful when other recourse (using your gun) is available to you. having a gun does not prevent you from offering the other cheek, rather it enhances the meaning of your gesture (offering the other cheek when you really didn’t have to). It seems to me that you see no other reason to owning a gun than to shoot people with it. Why? Couldn’t you simply have a gun to go hunting ducks, or deer?
So, in short, I think that so far you are conjoining things that don’t necessarily follow one another. A sinful act is not caused by owning a gun, and a Christ-like act (like offering your other cheek) is not prevented by owning a gun.

One thing you have resolved is your lack of comprehension on nearly everything I said. Until then I’ll have better conversation on the matter with others here.

Hi Omar,

Let me make it clear that I never stated this is a “Sin”. I don’t know why this is being brought up again after the last post when I said the same thing. I never said it was a sin in my op, in Christian theology. I provided direction from Jesus that essentially leads one to think that there is no need for owning guns as a Christian and it would be best to essentially, not own guns. In fact, if people were to love one another as themselves, it would be best that Christian thing to do would be to not have any machine, equipment that makes killing easier or more prolific, for anyone. Jesus never killed anyone and when it was him being arrested, unjustly, and killed, he let them. He of course, could’ve defended himself, or he could’ve started shooting lightning bolts out of his mouth into some mountain far away, (for example, brandishing a gun while under threat) but of course he went peacefully and prayed for his torturers and killers.

So with that being said it is also evident that God would want you to live as close to Jesus’ life as possible. I contend it is very possible to not own a gun as Jesus did not own a weapon, nor own anything as Jesus did not own anything aside from whatever clothes he wore, apparently. (The son of man has no place to rest his head). Well, not many Christians follow this right? So why not? Are they ignorant of the teachings of Jesus, stupid, lacking courage or would they rather just do what they want as opposed to act how Jesus did, and go with the flow with the rest of the United States Conservative Christians and fight for gun rights and or proclaim they will fight for the death for gun rights? ( I would pawn that off as stupid – considering the lack of benefit to someone who believes god is Jesus but doesn’t want to do what Jesus made evident, which is not own anything (guns included) and turn your cheek.) I don’t see how owning a gun and turning your cheek is any more nobler than not owning a gun and turning your cheek, regardless. It doesn’t matter in any context of the bible.

Would Jesus fight for gun rights? Or no? Should Christians do what Jesus did or not? Would Jesus own a gun now, or not?

He travelled with a cadre of armed followers. Why wouldn’t he do the same thing now? You’re just going to have to come to terms with the fact that, for Jesus, being non-violent and travelling armed were not contradictory.

Hello ANGRY,

Va bene. For me, how I intend “sin” in this conversation is equal to anything a Christian shouldn’t do, as Christians. You have made the distinction but I do not see the theological or biblical foundations for your distinction. But fine. “Sin” is too strong a word? Ok. We will call it “Un-Christian behavior”.

This is to pick and choose where you emulate Christ. Don’t look at the speck in your brother’s eye while you keep a plank in your own eye. Remember we are talking here of owning a gun, nothing else besides. Nothing in scripture requires that one give up one’s guns before he or she can follow Jesus. or the Christ like life. There is, however, the requirement of giving up one’s wealth. You are arguing for something not even mentioned in the Bible or in conjunction with a Jesus-like-life and forget to mention anything at all about what is in the bible as a requirement of a Christ-like-life. I don’t see a valid argument as to why gun-ownership in itself is Un-Christinan like, unless you imply only one use to a gun. Just as a knife can be used to gut a fish as it can be used to gut a person, so too a gun can be directed at a beast as well as a person and in each case it is the recipient, how the object is used, that determines the person, not the gun, not the knife, which remain in-themselves objects without evil or virtue. Owning a gun does not make the owner good, but just as well, it does not make him or her “bad” or “evil”.

If you argue that we should give up gun ownership as a piece of property, along with our money, then I can see your point.

Don’t combine gun-owners with every wacko that vows to fight to the death, blah, blah, blah. You can be pro-gun ownership and pro-regulation of said ownership for example. But that is a different issue that I am willing to let Uccisore battle out with you. I am just saying that gun-ownership, in itself, is not against living a Christian life, just as owning a fishing knife is not an obstacle to living a Christian life.

It is an old Platonic argument. Who is more noble? A man who cannot tell a lie, or a man that could tell a lie but chooses not to? But that is not something I am looking to argue here.

He probably would not understand the point. Would he fight knife rights? People should act like Christ in what matters; in being kind, in showing compassion. Giving up your gun is an empty gesture because, as I have argued, the gun-ownership is neither a virtue or an evil; rather it is what you perform that is, thus it is your character, which does not change with the possession or dispossession of the article.

It is true. I think virtually everybody who is pro gun ownership is pro regulation at least to some degree, but I don’t run in the craziest of libertarian circles.

I don’t know how a Christian could think “Christ” wouldn’t understand anything, that flies against all normal doctrine as well. I suppose that’s a way to rationalize not pointing to the obvious implications of Christ’s teachings. On the sin issue, do you think owning anything is a sin? Jesus taught people to sell there things give the money to the poor and follow him. SO if someone has possessions, in your mind, is that a sin?

“Sin” merely means “poor judgement” from the archery term for “missing the mark”.

And most of the time, Jesus was speaking to his direct disciples or to-be direct disciples during an age of Judaism vs Rome. Dogs are not expected to use forks and spoons, thus must use their teeth.

Hello ANGRY

He would not understand because it would be a non-issue, or besides the point, besides what really matter. Imagine Jesus on the cross, with his feet and hands nailed to a tree (perhaps a cross) and being asked to clarify whether he is for or against Christians having guns. You see what I mean? Just like if someone asked him whether owning anything is a sin, or if what they need to do to be saved is cut off their dicks and sell everything they own. It is not the dick, the money, the gun that makes the Christian but how they use the dick, the money, the gun that saves or condemns them. Trying to observe rules with a hard heart void of mercy is useless, which is why Jesus quoted Isaiah 29:13 to some of his critics. I am not advocating that people should give up their money or guns. I am saying that it is what’s in each person, I would presume, which makes either dangerous to their salvation. It is not the outside of the dish that needs cleaning, but the inside of the dish. It is useless to give up your guns and money if you don’t understand justice, feel no mercy, and are unfaithful. Righteousness in deed, not righteousness in possession.
I thought that we were off the “sin” issue.
As for the story of the rich man, I think that everyone has something that they place ahead of the business of salvation. For the rich man it was money which prevented him from following Jesus, or from being worthy of following Jesus. For other it might be the family (Luke 9:61-62), or what they worry about doing (Luke 10: 40-43). Having a family, a career, or a gun is not in itself an issue but placing them ahead of living a Christ-like life is an issue. If you fetishize the gun, your career or family, such that justice, mercy and faithfulness become secondary then you have an issue. I do not see possessions (of anything at all) as a disqualifying factor for someone who wants to follow Jesus unless you value them ahead of a Christ-like life. It is not, I repeat one more time, the gun, or the vineyard (in Martha’s case), that disturbs Jesus (going by scripture), but the choice you have made, or what you do.